January 9 2004

Is his Thai internet bride a con-girl? #3

Is his Thai internet bride a con-girl?

Now we learn the final twist in the story of Mark, the 46 year-old American accountant who chose an 18 year-old Thai bride from AmericanSingles.com. His concerned friend is actually his ex-girlfriend - and she wants him back. If you haven't done so already, you should read her first and second letters before continuing.

I want to add the final twist: I am actually Mark's ex-girlfriend! Needless to say, as I sit helplessly by, watching this girl, young enough - as you so aptly put it - to be his granddaughter, destroy him, I wonder how much longer I can endure it. But my only goal is to ensure Mark survives this and I desperately need more of your insight to do so.

Mark and I met in grad school 10 years ago and developed a friendship that ultimately evolved into more. Possessing scant knowledge at the time of the combined affects of alcoholism/ADHD on adult behavior, I naively assumed I could save him from himself. After 4 years of living with him, however, I became emotionally and physically exhausted. About 1.5 years ago, I amicably moved to a place near to his apartment, in the hope that my moving would encourage him to seek out any professional help he needed and perhaps we would ultimately reunite. Enter AmericanSingles.com.

Your Ad Here

Before going further, I know you have only my word to go by and, as grotesquely egotistical as it may sound, I must say I am, at age 34, quite fit (teach aerobics), hold 2 Master's degrees, have a good career and am told I look like a young Elizabeth Taylor. I say all this only to disavow you of the notion of me as middle-aged schlub; yet, I am also quite aware that NO 34-year old female can compete with a teenager from any culture, irrespective of her looks.

Anyway, rather than improve his lot after I moved out, Mark sat alone most nights, drinking, sinking into depression and began trolling the WWW. Cleverly concealing his cyber-dates from me, he continued to see me. In fact, during his first trip to Bangkok, he phoned me often while Nok was at the "brother's condo". On the day he returned to the U.S., I visited him and could see she had successfully cast her spell (even without bedroom Olympics) but, given their collective lack of resources, who would have imagined their relationship progressing to marriage (in Nicaragua for God sakes), and her immigration to the US?!

I suppose it's also important to note here that (in my opinion), compared to his Thai-girl-searching western counterparts, Mark is drop dead gorgeous. At 5'10", Mark looks 35, has blonde hair, good skin, blue eyes, a muscular build and great "equipment". Unfortunately however, due to his drinking, poor diet and generalized anxiety disorder, he developed severe ulcerative colitis in his 30s, resulting in the loss of his colon (colostomy).

Back to the plot. Unbeknown to me at the time, because I didn't hear from him one month following the first trip, he returned to Bangkok to help her with the visa paperwork. Again, she spent 2 weeks with him, but didn't allow him to meet any of her family. One month later, he called to say he was married; he came to my home with photos of the marriage in Nicaragua and, although I played it cool, I nearly passed out. He informed me that Nok had returned to Bangkok to await K-3 processing.

A week later, I innocently sent an email to his personal account, explaining that I thought it was best if we discontinued our relationship, on all levels, since he was now a married man. Low and behold, Nok responds to me from Bangkok!! She had been monitoring his emails and was polite in telling me that she knew all about me, and that the marriage to Mark was indeed sudden.

In same email, she related that she was trying to get Mark to give her a divorce, but he wouldn't comply, and that if I "wanted him back" she would "help" me.

Nok volunteered the following information about herself and the events leading up to the marriage: 1) She had recently been devastated by a breakup with her Korean boyfriend of 2 years, who went to study in the U.S., and was told by his parents he was NOT allowed to date her because "they didn't like Thai people" (don't know if he ever even lived in LOS); 2) The Korean boyfriend visited her 1 last time, 6 months before she met Mark, and she stayed with him for one month, blowing off classes and causing her grades to plummet (her words: "we didn't come to study for a month... and that time I started to have problem at my college"); 3) Fell in love again and things further deteriorated ("then I got new boyfriend and my life got more terrible after I met him"), as one would expect ("I fighted with girl at my college because of him... and my teacher want my parent to come to meet her... and then I was so ashamed to go to back to my college or to go to meet someone"); and 4) She had so many problems by the time Mark proposed, she was ready to leave LOS (her words: "as your question why I agreed to marry him so quickly... as my problem I told you, you should have no doubt, I thought I would not have anything to lose... I would come to US by free, get visa and Green Card, that I could go there anytime or work for more money... but all of that, I was so selfish... I just want to tell you I am a bad bad girlÔø? and I am feeling unhappy and weak!... I try to make my feeling to get better like when I met Mark, but it still the same... I felt I love him the last day before he go back to the US, now we don't get divorced yet... Mark told me I should come to the US first...but I keep try"). After a few more emails, she said that "I and Mark will get divorced this weekend... but can still be friends..."

Two months passed, without contact from either of them and on May 15, Mark called to say he had just returned from his third trip to Bangkok and that Nok may not make it to US, due to problems with K-3. I asked him about the alleged divorce, to which he replied: "Oh, she always says that when she's angry - she doesn't really mean it".

According to Mark, he rushed to Bangkok for the third time when Nok phoned him, crying hysterically because her father had taken the entire family to the beach, but would not allow Nok to attend. Feeling sorry for her, Mark flew to Bangkok and took her to the beach himself; after which, she said to him, "I think I love you now". Six weeks later, she was living with him in the U.S.

On the 4th day of her new life in the U.S., Nok left me the following request on my home messaging machine:

"Hallo... I'm Nok... I call you... I need your help. Today I fighted with Mark because I want to get divorced wit heem... an I tink you can help meÔø? an... he just hoit (hurt?) me today... he heet meÔø? near my face and my body... so if you want to call me bahk... just call me... thank you."

Not wanting to become a pawn in their emotional games, I ignored her message and never told Mark about it. As I see it, no one forced her to come to the U.S. Clearly, she was using Mark as an escape hatch from her messed-up life and it had backfired.

Remarkably, I noticed in her photos, and was able to verify when I saw her in person, she has the oddest shaped body on a female I have ever seen, much less a Thai girl. Most Thai girl photos portray them as having killer bodies in addition to beautiful faces, so you can imagine my surprise when I find myself gazing upon a 5'6" (hence her Chinese genetics) female weighing 115 lbs. Specifically, I would have to describe her shape as that of a diamond. Extremely flat-chested, with narrow shoulders, she has chubby upper arms, a fat roll at her waist, small hips and long feet (her voice is too feminine to be a katoey).

Another item of interest, she claims her family is rather prominent in Bangkok and quite large. Having now read all the above, my questions to you are:

1) Do you think there is any chance she really is simply a disturbed, spoiled, promiscuous teenager, that did live with her brother, and did drive a BMW furnished by her father but was taken from her when she did whatever it was she did to finally get "dumped" by the family?

David replies:

Yes I do. The more I learn about Nok's circumstances, the more convinced I am that she's telling the truth. As far as dubious Thai girls are concerned, she may be the exception that disproves the rule. Though her story may be true, I still think that she's omitted a few details about her relationships with other men. However, discretion isn't a crime.

2) Is it possible that despite her original intentions to obtain a Green Card, Mark's sheer tenacity and devotion caused her to fall in love with him legitimately at some point in all this? (Of course, once she arrived stateside and saw how dismally poor he is, she no doubt lost that lovin' feelin').

David replies:

Perhaps she did feel something for Mark. Love might be too strong a word but she would undoubtedly have been swayed by his tenacity and devotion. Most women respond to it and Thai women expect it (Thai men are very charming - at least for the first few months). Although he's not perfect, you painted a much kinder picture of Mark this time so it's not unreasonable that she might have grown fond of him - just as you did. No one else seems to stick with her. Perhaps she craves the love that she didn't get as a child. Interestingly, you say that she's not very pretty. This levels the pitch a little. If it weren't for the 28-year age gap and his relative poverty, her relationship with Mark might have prospered. As it is, though, she's obviously planning her exit strategy.

3) If her father and his family are so well off, as she claims, can't she at some point simply call/beg him to send her the money to fly back to Bangkok, regardless of whether she has been dumped, or not?

David replies:

For Thai people, losing face is the ultimate humiliation. Many would rather lose their life than lose their face. It's hard for us westerners to understand because our culture is quite forgiving of screw-ups but, in the East, losing face means living the rest of your life in shame. Nok may have told her family a few home-truths and boasted to them about her successful new life in the West. Crawling back a failure would be unthinkable.

4) Would her refusal to go back to college, in of itself, be sufficient to have warranted expulsion from a rich and prominent family, or would it take something more serious, as I mentioned earlier? (How was she was able, at the tender age of 17, to spend an entire month with her Korean ex-boyfriend before their breakup, without her father getting really ticked off?).

David replies:

Academic failure is common amongst lazy Thai rich-kids and it would take a lot more than this to get her cast out. It must have been her boyfriends. Her cohabitation with the Korean boy would indeed have upset her father but the final straw appears to have come later. It must have been the mystery guy she met on the rebound. Perhaps he was a total low-life. Her silence about him speaks volumes.

5) Do 22-year old Thai men, with wealthy doctor-father's, get to live in their own condos, or are they made to live at home - as are the daughters - until marriage?

David replies:

Rich Thai couples often invest in condos and sometimes allow their sons and daughters to live in them - but only with each other. For middle-class kids, cohabitation before marriage is strictly forbidden and, as we have seen, fast-living daughters can get themselves into serious trouble. Sons are generally forgiven their transgressions, though.

I still don't believe that she was living with her brother. After cohabitating for months with various boyfriends, it just doesn't ring true. Thais often address their friends like older and younger siblings (pee and norng) and this creates a lot of ambiguity. From Nok's point of view, to describe her male friend as a "brother" was more a non-disclosure technique than a lie. To find out the truth, you would have to ask her to be more specific.

6) Is she now jealous of me now that she's seen me, and therefore more determined than ever to stick it out with Mark?

David replies:

We all place a higher value on an object that someone else wants - particularly when that object is our partner. I don't know whether your interest in Mark has made Nok feel more possessive but one thing is certain - Nok's interest in him (however cynical) has had precisely this effect on you. I'll come back to this in my conclusion.

Even if she genuinely likes him, Nok's relationship with Mark is going nowhere. Obviously she needs a way out and, far from seeing you as a rival, may be looking to you for help. You may have misinterpreted her motives. For her, getting you and Mark back together would tie up a lot of loose ends. It's a strategy often employed by Thai women. They hate conflict and try to end their relationships as gently as possible.

7) From the few quotes of hers, can you still say she thinks and sounds like a classic Thai con-girl, or just a disturbed, rich teenager?

David replies:

As her story unfolds, I'm becoming increasingly convinced that Nok really is a disturbed, rich teenager. I can't prove that she's a liar. She seems to speak her mind quite plainly - even to you. She's behaved no worse than any American teenager but, as a result, her life is a total screw-up. Perhaps she deserves our sympathy.

Conclusion

Finally, you have revealed yourself as Mark's ex. Your reticence is understandable - Mango Sauce isn't exactly Cosmopolitan Magazine. You've been frank with me, so now I'm going to be frank with you.

Previously, you described Mark as a shambling figure who deserved our pity. Now we see a more balanced view of him. Though not a high-flyer, Mark is an intelligent man with a reasonable job. He doesn't have many friends, preferring instead to devote his time to his partner. Like most men, he's dreadfully untidy and needs someone to clean up after him.

He rents a small apartment and has few possessions - realizing perhaps that what we own is less important than who we are. Like most people in middle-age, he drinks too much and suffers a chronic, but manageable, medical condition. He gets depressed sometimes. In short, Mark is an average guy and people probably like him.

For you, though, he's far from average. It's obvious that you're still in love with him. Perhaps, after he took up with Nok, you remembered how you used to feel about him. Most of us appreciate what we have only when it's been taken away.

As well as having the body of a Greek God, Mark possesses the most important male quality of all - the ability to make a woman feel cherished. Despite their obvious mismatch, it was this that drew Nok to him.

You said that your only goal was to ensure Mark's survival but you need to decide on another. Do you want him back or not? If you do, then I'm going to let you into the secret of how to motivate a man. Thai women know it already - that's why they're so successful.

Men are motivated and empowered when they feel needed.
Given the opportunity to prove his potential, a man expresses his best self.
Not to be needed is a slow death for a man.
A man's deepest fear is that he is not good enough or that he is incompetent.
It is difficult for a man to listen to a woman when she is unhappy or disappointed because he feels like a failure.

These aren't my words but, as a man, I can personally vouch for them. You may find it hard to empathise because women don't feel like this. Men and women are motivated by different things. A woman must learn how to motivate a man and it's not instinctive - except in the case of a Thai woman.

A Thai woman plays a man like a violin by appearing to put herself under his protection. It makes him feel like a king. She doesn't have to give much back either - except affection. Men have fragile egos. Crude attempts to help or improve them will backfire spectacularly. Men who feel like a failure go downhill very quickly. Thai women know this and use extreme tact when trying to improve them. That's why we fellas find Thai women so irresistible - even the ugly ones.

Though you loved him, your relationship with Mark didn't thrive. This is your explanation: "Possessing scant knowledge at the time of the combined affects of alcoholism/ADHD on adult behavior, I naively assumed I could save him from himself. After 4 years of living with him, however, I became emotionally and physically exhausted", In short, you tried too hard to reform him and wore yourself out in the process. Now that you know what motivates a man, could you have handled things differently?

I'm not taking a swipe at you - I know that you acted with the best of intensions. I also know that it's hard for any woman to believe that a man can be motivated by caring for him less. Nevertheless, it is true. Nok doesn't give a damn about Mark's welfare. She's got too many problems of her own. The reason that he's so crazy about her is that she needs his help.

Their relationship isn't going to last, though. Nok will disappear when she gets a better offer. You could use this opportunity to get Mark back. However, it might be your last chance because the next woman he meets might be more suitable than Nok. If she loves him and knows how to motivate a man, you will lose him forever.

If you do want Mark back, then I hope that it's not out of pity. That would do him more harm than good. If, however, you want him back out of desire, then I wish you well and hope you succeed. Mark is a hunk with a heart of gold and you should be proud to be his girlfriend.

The drama unfolds...

[Posted to Your Letters by David]

Your Ad Here

Readers' comments

clawdagon says:

Dear Guys,

>>>>
Further reading

The wise words I quoted were from Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus: A practical guide for improving communication and getting what you want in your relationships by John Gray.

In my view, anyone intending to live with a person of the opposite sex should read this book first - and then read it again
>>
I can't believe I read this on "Mangosauce"!!
John Gray is wimp and a phony, he was a virgin until his late thirties.
His "books" are full of tired cliches repackaged in New Age psychobabble.
He is marketed very well, he is a self-made industry but why follow the word of loser?
A heterosexual male would get more insight into Females by reading "Dexterhorn" or "Club Hombre" for
chrissakes.
Sorry guys, the best use for John Gray's books to deal with Women are to serve as tinder for the BBQ
as you sit back, sip your Singha and kiss your Thai sweetheart.

Claw

January 11, 2004 7:17 PM

wolfman says:

It's made interesting reading but the whole story does not ring true.
How does this guy manage to fly to Bangkok at the drop of a hat when his credit cards are maxed out? After all he has no friends to lend him money.
How do you destroy your body with alcohol for more than a decade and yet still have great skin and look 10 years younger than your age (even if beauty is in the eye of the beholder).
We all know about 'functioning alcoholics' but how do yoiu hold down an accounting job with ADHD? and get the time off to dart off to Thailand when your fiancee calls?
Don't censor this, David, as your website is great but, my friend, you have been 'had'!

January 12, 2004 8:40 PM

Wolfman says:

David,

Your website is great and your views illuminating - however, my friend, you have been 'had' (unless you made it all up yourself!).

This whole query has a ring of fabrication. A few minor points:

1. This guys credit cards are 'maxed out' - but he can fly to Thailand whenever he fancies and stay in hotels (presumably of a good standard as his girlfriend booked them).

2. Whilst beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I do not believe that someone who has abused their body for so long can look a decade younger with great skin.

3. We've all heard of functioning alcoholics but you can't hold down a responsible job with ADHD.

All in all, a con, but a highly entertaining read for all of that.

January 12, 2004 8:54 PM

Marianne Bouton says:

David:

I can certainly understand the confusion experienced by MangoSauce readers in attempting to reconcile the disparate facts of "Mark's" life, so please allow me to clarify:

#1) Credit Card Issue -

Mark is currently in $100,000+ dollars of credit card debt encompassing approx 10 Visa/Mastercards accumulated over a decade--as he maxed out existing ones, he would simply apply for/receive a new one, until no financial entity would approve additional cards.

Consequently, all 10 of his major credit cards are maxed AT ALL TIMES (have been for yrs). "Doing the math" (as we say here in US), one can see how annual interest on avg of 15% for 10 cards, & $100K total debt load, would not allow him to pay anything but interest, never scratching surface of principle & barely make the "minimum payment due" each mo, which, as a compulsive spender (ADHD related), he immed charges back up to credit limit w/in days (believe it...I watched him in action for many yrs, yet he has NOTHING to show for all this debt, save for some modest quality business clothes & lg screen TV).

Similarly, for a man pulling in $65K/yr (yes, he should be making MUCH more, but he messes up alot, again, ADHD-related, & isn't promoted), with other living expenses, one can understand why he is on verge of personal bankruptcy, as I write this (however, as a CPA, he will lose his CPA certification forever, should he file).

Mark does receive a bonus for overtime 2x annually, avg $3K, each. Interestingly, since he couldn't use his credit cards last April to fly to BKK, on spur of the moment, he asked landlord if he could skip rent for 2 mos & make a catch-up payment when he returned, as one of his bonuses was due. However, his boss was so ticked off that he took off work w/o permission during Tax Season (left while his boss was out of town!), he deducted that time off from his regular paycheck, so he didn't even have that to use, & almost lost his job, while his landlord threatened to evict him b/c he wasn't able to pay entire amt of rent when he returned, afterall, b/c he had to use the bonus money to compensate for the lost paycheck! (hey, never underestimate the power of an 18-yr old girl to send an already psychologically shaky 46-yr old man off a cliff)

Regarding hotel price, this was his 1st trip, & Nok volunteered to make hotel reservations, so Mark, via email, instructed her as to price range & she complied by finding one at 1,000 baht/day. Remember, he wasn't trying to impress her w/his money, & in fact tried to tell Nok all along that he didn't have any. But she probably couldn't fathom, a C.P.A. (yes, he's a freaking CPA--now, are you beginning to get what a mess this guy is?!!), w/ a Master's degree & a job, could be as financially troubled as he is, or would at least have something to show for all his debt, & since she was only looking to him, for a Greencard/escape route, she didn't concern herself, apparently, w/ caliber of hotels/apts he rented. During his 2nd/3rd trips to BKK, they stayed in "slummy cheap apts" (his words) in Pattaya (perhaps after daddy cut Nok from the family coffers, she began freelancing in BKK, while trolling for sucker farang on Internet, & with her odd-shaped body, couldn't make much $ at it & with make-up on, her face is fairly attractive, although no stunner by any stretch).

#2 Decade Younger Issue -

Actually, Mark is extremely fair-skinned (half British/half Irish ancestors), & has never allowed sun to any part of his anatomy save his face/forearms, due to risk of sunburn. He smoked only in his 20's. As a binge drinker, his drinking tapered off significantly after he lost his colon; however, as a true alcoholic (father & maternal GF were both alcoholics), he has never been completely free of alcoholic episodes, especially when life stressors hit hard. Mark has always pursued physical fitness w/ a vengence, irrespective of his alcohol consumption. His face is somewhat weathered, but gives him character like that of a California Beach/Surfer Boy & skin covering his body is milky white/soft, as if it never fully matured. Perhaps he is a miracle of good skin genetics, as well as his devotion to physical fitness & anti-oxidant vitamins, have so far compensated for the bad habits. But believe me, he looks 38, at most.

#3 Holding Job With ADHD Issue -

Mark did actually lose his first job as a CPA as a result of repeated mistakes, etc., b/c he never had had the patience to research the condition/treatment modalities & at time I didn't know much more than he did. Needless to say, I began researching 24/7, & learned that first he needed to be formally, tested/diagnosed. He did. The doctors put him on Ritalin immediately. The next CPA job he was offerred, he has maintained to this day (w/sm firm). He is viable during day b/c he downs megadoses of Ritalin, but not enough to pursue income his counterparts receive (an issue of self-confidence); however, he takes last Ritalin at 3:00 pm each day, & its decisions made after last one wears off (Ritalin is short-acting & clears from system completely w/i 4 hrs), & he's free to act on them, that cause problems!

In summary David, although you hit nail on head when you described Mark as a "hunk w/ heart of gold", he is also, a very problematic man. And although he may want a sweet TG for a wife (what westerner wouldn't want a darling little TG--as much as I wish I could say otherwise, the good ones are the most adorable creatures in the Universe, bar none!!), he can't even take care of himself in his own culture, so how is he going to be a viable husband to a female unfamiliar w/our cold, competitive culture for which she is ill prepared to survive independently, no matter how much she needs him, or can convey to him that she does? Feeling needed by any Thai girl, just isn't going to be enough for Mark to survive & I think when this marriage implodes, it will be the final straw for him. He was already suicidal after I moved out, & right before he went to BKK (as he gets older, disappointments are mounting & he said he's "tired").

Desperately looking for unconditional love/ emotionally distraught, Mark culturally misinterpreted Nok's Thai girl smile, shy politeness, deference & non-critical demeanor as TOTAL ACCEPTANCE of him AND his dysfunctionalities. He didn't stop to think that she hadn't even seen him in his habitat, so her perceived acceptance of him while visiting her in BKK, was an illusion of unprecedented proportion. No wonder she trashed his apt! She's a mess herself, with no escape, & he can't cope with unhappy women or judgement of any kind. Nok is very unhappy, as she has continued to ask for a divorce since she arrived, she has been critical of him as well (albeit not in the same way farang women are), I'm sure; so now she realizes that what she saw of him in BKK, was also an illusion of unprecedented proportion!! Question is: if no other man would want her here in America (she'd be hard pressed to find one w/her weird body that's any better than Pete, in US, & everyone here just thinks she an ex-"working girl") & she can't go back to her doctor-daddy due to face issues, what's going to happen ultimately? A double suicide? A murder-suicide (he's already hit her a couple of times, as she said on my messaging machine "he hoit today...he heet me near my face/body...") when collective frustrations/tensions rise beyond the brink, or what?

Please advise

January 13, 2004 3:01 AM

David says:

Wolfman - There's no conspiracy here. Why would anyone make this story up? I can also confirm that a manned spacecraft landed on the moon in 1969. If you don't believe me, ask Elvis. You'll find him behind the grassy knoll.

Marianne - I agree with most of your analysis but there are still a few points that I want to respond to.

1. Don't underrate Nok's ability to attract men. She may be a bit of a pudding but she's had boyfriends in the past and will, no doubt, have others in the future. Beautiful women can be a royal pain in the ass. Always the centre of attention, they have no incentive to develop a winning personality. When age erodes their good looks, they often become bitter too. Not surprisingly, many guys prefer to be with a plainer girl.

2. Does "everyone" really think that she's a ex-hooker? Thai girls do have a reputation but, in reality, only a small percentage of them ever become prostitutes. In any case, far from deterring a man, a woman's lurid past can sometimes be quite alluring. When a fella stares down a woman's blouse, it's not marriage that he's contemplating.

3. The likelihood of a murder/suicide bloodbath is vanishingly small. You know Mark better than anyone. Do you really believe that he would be capable of this? Many people think about suicide but few go through with it. There's plenty of information on the web about how to support people who feel like this, so I'll leave it there for now.

My conclusion remains the same as before. Mark and Nok's relationship won't last a year. She will find another guy and he will get over it.

January 13, 2004 1:50 PM

Wolfman says:

Okay, okay - sorry Marianne, no one could come up with a response that detailed unless it was true.

On an unrelated issue, I enjoyed Clawdagon's excellent put down of Paul too. However, I'm now worried that, after David's praise of him, he's starting to think he's a comedian. Clawdagon - stick to what you know best i.e. putting down the PC brigade, but don't bother with the literary critiques.

January 13, 2004 2:46 PM

Marianne says:

David, thanks to your insightful replies, as well as those of your readers, I feel I have, at long last, a handle on the situation, so that I know how to proceed. But, I'll get back to that in a moment.

First, I would like clarification/connotative meaning of: "bit of a pudding"--'cause if it's a phrase used to describe lazy, spoiled, promiscuous, rich TGs, w/fat waists/flat chests, who upon finding themselves (at tender age, 17) plum out of Asian males willing to be emotionally drained, go trolling for unsuspecting, old western men, on the internet, to "ride" to America, then yes, I completely understand the reference.

It isn't Nok's ability to attract men in US, as we have a broad range of "flavors" (but since she looks rather sleezy middle-class/SE Asian--& I'm not exaggerating--as opposed to, say, the gorgeous model depicted on your website homepage, i.e., wholesome, fresh, lovely, she is/will be seen as the stereotypical ex-hooker), rather its her ability to attract anyone MORE emotionally/financially viable than Mark, that concerns me, b/c it portends her, as you once remarked, returning to him time/again, to put the proverbial final nails in his coffin! Not to mention the logistics involved in planning her escape--she simply seems too lazy to even bother. Afterall, she comes from an environment wherein all she had to do was ask for what she wanted & she received it, w/notable exception, of course, of her mother's love/father's attention.

Only time will tell whether NOk is resourceful enough, in an environment where she finds herself mostly void of social/economic resources, to escape Mark's constant surveillance, & make a run for it. Personally, I can't see it happening, but then again, I'm not/never have been a TG, living by my wits. Believe me, I'm cheering her on in that regard!

January 15, 2004 1:31 AM

David says:

In colloquial UK English, the meaning of "she's a bit of a pudding" isn't quite that detailed. It refers only to body shape - small and chubby, in other words, or a bit of a dumpling.

Incidentally, the "gorgeous model" depicted on my homepage is actually a real person and she'll be delighted to hear what you wrote about her.

Do stay in touch, Marianne. I want to know the outcome of your story.

January 15, 2004 1:58 PM

Marianne Bouton says:

Dear David:

Its been a couple of mos, & I decided to re-read all 3 parts of my story: "Is His Internet Bride a Con-girl?". As a result, I have an update & a few more questions (please, please, please...;-))

1) Although we've concluded that Nok is a rich girl fallen out w/her family, do you really think she was living w/a male friend ("brother"), given her promiscuous nature, that she wasn't having s*x with during the 5 mos prior to her U.S. arrival? I simply have difficulty believing she just happened to find a platonic male friend willing to let her live for free in his Condo just when she happened to need him, don't you?

Also, since last I wrote to you, I typed her name into Google's search engine & an address/ph#/dob appeared! Apparently, Nok attended a Korean Int'l Youth Camp, in 1999, & the Camp listed its attendees' addresses on its website spreadsheet.

The address she listed is an old/established money Condo complex in Sunkunvit. Don't ask me what Nok was doing living in a Condo at age 15, since a Surgeon wouldn't have raised his family there (any ideas?). No doubt this Korean Int'l Camp is where she met her alleged Korean bf.

On this Camp's website I was able to view photos of its attendees. The Camp caters to mid-class & up, Asian teenagers interested in global politics/social issues. The Asian male's photos were quite intelligent, attractive, well-built & wealthy looking. It then occurred to me Nok's prime motivation in posting to AmericanSingles.com (as opposed to say, Match.com or Bkk Chat) was to get to the U.S. as quickly as possible to reunite w/her Korean ex-bf!

She said she was devastated when he broke up w/her & went to U.S. on a Study Visa. It was only a mo later that she posted to AmericanSingles.com! Nok is used to getting what she wants & since her relationship w/her family was already strained, there was nothing in Bkk to hold her. Even I can see why she would have been willing to chase this Korean guy all the way to America--he's a rich, smart, Asian babe! What do you think? This may be the missing piece that completes the puzzle.

Most importantly, I've recently hired a PI to investigate her, beginning w/ father's occupation & existence of an older brother. However, the PI says he can't do anything with only her name, d.o.b., address & ph# that may be 4 yrs old! There are only 10 listings in the Bkk residential directory with her last name. Now don't you surmize that if she really is from a lg old monied Chinese-Thai family in Bkk, that at least one of the 10 listed in the phone book would have heard of, if not belong to her family. What's going on w/this PI firm? Aren't there some public records he could be checking out to find out her family's configuration, property ownership, etc.?

As far as Nok herself goes, after 8 mos, she is running out of steam here in U.S., is becoming depressed/withdrawn. No doubt her Korean bf refused to have anything do w/her over here, despite her many phone calls to him in California & Mark's turbulent/disorganized/cash poor lifestyle is wearing her down (eg., I should be submitting the story's epilogue to you in short order). In the interim, however, any light you are willing to shed on the above issues will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks so very much,

Marianne

March 13, 2004 3:20 AM

David says:

Hi Marianne

The poor-little-rich-girl story definitely stands up to scrutiny. Your detective work seems to be paying off in other respects too. Pursuing her Korean boyfriend to America offers a very plausible explanation for Nok's actions. He may indeed be the missing piece that completes the puzzle.

Like you, I don't believe that her relationship with the male condo benefactor was platonic. Perhaps it was a relationship similar to the one she now has with Mark.

I've stripped out Nok's personal details from your posting. All contributors to Mango Sauce (even those who don't know about it) are guaranteed their anonymity.

I'm surprised that a name, address and date of birth didn't give your private detective enough to go on. Mango Sauce recently hosted an interesting discussion about PIs in Thailand. If you haven't done so already, you should take a look.

http://www.mangosauce.com/archives/000209.html

Things are not going well for Nok. The Korean ex-boyfriend is clearly no longer interested in her and she's running out of options.

It looks like this story is heading towards its conclusion. Let us know what happens.

March 13, 2004 12:04 PM

Crash999 says:

What a saga!!! I still somehow doubt much of this girl's story- specifically her background, the condo, her family, etc.

There are probably some half-truths, mixed in with pure exaggeration and fabrications. And some obvious ones- odds are that the 'brother' she lived with is of course an unrelated handsome 19 year-old who drives a motorcycle during the day and mooches off of her.

Online there are quite a number of notorious girls, who jump from one farang to another- in one memorable incident I found out that a girl whom my friend had hooked up with had already slept with a half-dozen members of a forum that I belong to. Somehow I wonder if this girl isn't one of the ones we know...

Being able to speak Thai and living here gives one a huge advantage when meeting these girls- in fact some of the farang-junkies will avoid farang who can speak Thai as we, "know too much" - meaning we can't be manipulated as easily.

Take these poor guys from overseas with money to burn and you can see how they get roped into messes such as this one...

Cheers!

April 8, 2004 12:52 PM

Marianne says:

Dear David:

Some HUGE events have occurred since last update--all of which you predicted of course, but at the snail's pace my newly hired PI is operating, I'll be in a Nursing Home, on feeding tubes by the time any additional useful info is uncovered!

In a separate piece on this website, I indicated that Nok left Mark 2 mos ago. Well, she did. She manipulated his best friend into calling her father & having him wire cash for flight back to Bkk. Unfortunately, for reasons only Mark knows, she returned to him 4 wks later.

Anyway, if you're willing, please take a look at the remaining new developments, & render your erudite opinion of what they portend:

1) Using 6 digital photos of Nok, my new PI
presented them to neighbors at the Sukunvit Townhouse address I discovered (via Google) & this is what was learned: The condo unit is very lg & is owned by Nok's Aunt. No one has seen Nok there for a long time. The unit has been unoccupied for 2-3 yrs; however, a maid comes to clean wkly (indicative of wealth if they don't have to rent or sell unit). Neighbors don't know anything about Nok's Father, or remaining family, save for the fact they reside/have always resided in LOPBURI, an historic town, as I'm sure you're aware, 2 hrs north of Bkk.

2) Using this info, my PI was able to find records for Nok stating her father's name, revealing him by title to be a doctor. Apparently, nothing about her mother or the existence of an older brother on that particular record.

3) Mark's best friend, Bill, recently revealed events leading up to Nok's departure 2 mos ago. Bill is an attorney & has been like a brother to Mark since they were toddlers. Bill related that Nok had been "entertaining" a teenage guy while Mark was at work & he found out (Mark announced this fact loudly in a restaurant one nite while out w/Bill/Nok). Nok then told Bill she was afraid for her life, she hated Mark & wanted to return to LOS, but Mark wouldn't let her. Feeling sorry for her, Bill facilitated the escape. This damaged his friendship w/Mark almost irreparably.

4) Also, Bill mentioned that from 1st day Nok met him (read: the day Bill 1st appeared in his $70,000 new Boxter Porsche), she began to call him at his law office many times/wk & tell him how Mark hits & threatens to kill her, & then asked Bill if he would help her get a divorce/allow her to live in his house until she returns to LOS! (Note: recall that Nok left me similar voicemail, during her 1st mo stateside e.g., "he heet me near my face & bahdee" & would ask me to help her get a "d'wort whit heem" & Mark does not hit women; besides he's so big, having gained 50 lbs since Nok arrived, if he had even hit her once she would have required major hospitalization!) (This little b*tch needs to be stopped!)

5) According to Bill, prior to her departure, Nok has trashed Mark's apt, not once, but 3 times in a manner that prompted residents living beside them, to call the Police (that's not counting the # of times she did it that the police were not called to the scene)

6) Nok has been back in U.S. for a few wks & for the 1st time since she arrived last July, Mark called me at work. I was so taken aback & overwhelmed w/concern for him that I proceeded foolishly to try to convince him that Nok is essentially a spoiled, lazy, violent, liar w/no conscience who is working hard to find a replacement for him all day/everyday while he's at work, & no man is off-limits to her, including his best friend. Needless to say, after listening intently to what I said, he told me to never contact him for any reason & he hung up on me. (He's totally addicted & in denial still)

My questions: 1) Why would Nok have been allowed by her father, who lived in Lopburi, to go live w/her Aunt at 13/14, in Bkk, when she had just returned to him, supposedly, from living w/her birth mother in HK, at age 10?; 2) Do you now think Nok may never have actually lived in Lopburi w/her father, or that she ran away at an early age, like my PI thinks?; 3) The fact that she lived w/her Aunt in a nice Condo in Sukunvit, at age 14, do you feel this lends more, or less support to the possibility of her actually having an older brother w/his own Condo in the same area?; and 4) While back in Bkk for 1 month, she told Mark she was again living w/her "brother"; why do you think she returned b/c when she left she acted as though she wasn't returning & didn't speak to Mark from Bkk for 2 wks? (Did she decide while in Bkk that since Bill finally gave in to her manipulations & helped her escape, if she returned to Mark, perhaps she can get Bill to take her away from Mark altogether & then she would have a real rich farang at her disposal? Did her "brother"/Thai bf encourage her to go back & hang out for the Greencard & alimony? Did she realize Mark is the only person she knows that allows her to lay around all day & do nothing w/her life & decide to return to the lazy life & continue to search for a wealthier replacement for Mark?)

Please advise

May 28, 2004 2:46 AM

TikiMaster says:

Marianne

At first I didn't believe your story, because you seemed to have so much knowledge of Thailand. Have you been there?

Now I believe your story, but I find your obsession with Mark to be a little comical. If Mark's such a loser, why do you want him back so badly? Is his attachment to Nok any stranger than your attachment to him? Why spend so much energy on a guy you already failed to "fix" after 4 years? You're still trying to fix him!

You're attractive, why don't you put your energy into trying to find a decent guy for yourself? Even if you succeed in getting rid of Nok and getting back together with Mark (unlikely, IMHO), what have you got? An alcoholic on the verge of bankruptcy with a condition that prevents him from getting a decent job to ever reverse his situation? Doesn't that seem like a fairly unlikely partner for Happily Ever After? Can't you do better than that? Nok or not, he seems headed for disaster.

You go out of your way to blame Nok and accuse her of lying and manipulating, though most of her stories seem to check out. In the facts you've laid out, she seems like nothing more than a materialistic, impulsive, spoiled teenager. Mark, on the other hand, more than 20 years older, is the helpless victim?

I think your attraction to Mark is an indication of your fear of a real relationship with a healthy guy.

(Hope this doesn't seem too harsh. It's not intended to be.)

Best of luck to all three of you!
tm

May 30, 2004 5:33 AM

tony says:

dear sir i need a sexy and preaty thai or chines gf .i m asian male from kashmir in paart pak live in spain . tahks

June 22, 2004 12:51 AM

RIZ says:

wow i read this it blew my miind im 24 i married a thai girl from bangkok who is 23. i see alot of these same behaviors. im still on the fence about if she really loves me for me. Im just glad im young enough to recover from this.

January 26, 2007 2:37 AM

*** THE COMMENT FORUM IS NOW CLOSED ***