Farangs go home

Grabbin My Hat says:

Its laughable, at the moment the visa I have the new rule will not affect me but this guy keeps moving the goalposts so anything could happen.Though if I was Thai and in the middle of building a condominum building I would be seriously pissed when potential buyers were dropping their deposits.Thanks Square Head your doing your country proud.

Mr Lucky says:

Nice summary of the ongoing disaster. A foreign investor can only ask, "What's next?"

Even if this mess blows over and police officials go back to their loveable mai-pen-rai attitudes, no one would invest any significant amount in Thailand.

It is now obvious that no investment, no visa, is secure. Thai legalities are just too capricious. Even those with legal non-immigrant visas will be looking to sell off their Thai assets.

Thank god my wife and I didn't buy a house we were looking at this year (couldn't get full financing because I'm a foreigner).

The damage is done. All we can do now is drive slowly by and enjoy the carnage. And keep that portable hard drive up-to-date.

Dicer says:

Moody xenophobia at that! Well observed David.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/
09/10/news/travel11.php

This was an issue that I saw every few years. When Chuan Leekpai was just about to quit they brought in the 90 days report to immigration rule. Last year border crossers had to show lots of cash. This is the old tourism is the national goal, and then no tourists allowed.... on and off, the retarded mnd wildly at work... Let's get their money, but let's not let them come in... hahahahahah we thai peupuN...hahahahha.

So there is the national IQ and exactly what happens when future thinking (consequences) are not applicable...of course now we turn to Post Bag to see how many screams there are. Then the Oct 1 ruling can fade into the usual fog or just never be implemented. It gives them an option for a few years to pick out a handful of people they don't want around. Of course, just by saying this they will lose billions of dollars in tourism but hehehehehe who cares? It is a tiny limited mind, retarded and regresssed, whipping along on the tidal mood wave.

IMF reforms instructed them to stick in socratic methods in all schools, but you have a neural cognitive culural barrier...no one in Thailand really knows what this is about. You can see it as a very simplified thinking system with no complications no variation and no depth and certainly no regard for consequences.

This is exactly what I mean by the retarded slapping on the psychotic. All the foreigners with money invested here but no legal legs to stand on can probably see now how unpredictable the mood wave can be. And then the shock. Nothing like shock to bring us to our senses esp for those who are used to teflonning everything. "That is surely a round peg and I can get it in this round whole..." but it's square isn't it? That house is not yours anymore.... "yes but surely it can be round...round is nice...I like round." Hang on, when they find square it is like in biogenesis, change or die...the shock...accept the square hole or have a mental breakdown.

So retarded meets pyschotic...what a nice couple they make eh? In Mexico, Korea and even in quasi macho Malaysia there are plenty of reality checks..but here in this smiley female energy place people assume they can be genderless or degendered...in other countries someone would pull these delusional 5 year tourist visa foreigners with condos and dodgy businesses aside and beat the tar out of them.....no more illusions. There is no sensible dealing with national mood waves except to have your suitcase ready.

Dana says:

I have been bleating on this for years and achieved no success--to wit: look at all of the foreign countries that have 'nationalized' foreign assets since World War II. They always get away with it. This is what Thailand is persuaded by--crime pays. Purchasing hard assets in Thailand is madness. Ditto anything other than a maintainance bank account. It is not a country in the modern sense. Thieves.

Andy says:

Well, predict this thread to go and go..

Well said, David. I think your lead piece captures the expat mood of recent times.

Typical xenophobic knee-jerk reaction from typical jerk-off Thai politicians, determined to lay the blame of enormous malpractise at the doorstep of anyone but themselves.

The "Thai Love Thai" manifesto should have had anybody born outside this place keeping a hand on the wallet in the first place. Blind nationalism is always the cause of a charlatan.- Somebody famous once said something like that anyway.

I think the FEER column recently puts things into perspective:

http://www.feer.com/articles1/
2006/0609/free/p023.html

Just hope that saner heads might prevail after the election, and maybe that someone who made a lot of money from overseas technology might be a little more gracious about the people who educated and emancipated them?

Lets hope that this place doesn't do a total U-turn into communist ultra-nationalism; 50 years after the fashion.

Anonymous says:

Could be that the genius' that invented the one million Baht "Elite Card" brainstorming idea are having the last laugh. Expect your Elite card at a bargain after 30th September...

Gadfly says:

Some may (or may not) remember that I posted months ago on the nanaplaza.com website that these restrictions were coming, and many responded saying I was full of shit. Now another prediction: it will get worse before it gets better.

Irrespective of whether it is good or bad for Thailand, Thaksin and his cronies will do what they can to enrich themselves and protect their interests. This is all about misdirection. Farangs are convenient targets - an easy way to divert public attention from the self-evident corruption of the current government.

bob says:

why would any fool want to invest his wonga in LOS on a dodgy premis when UK house prices have doubled over the last 4 years.
its a no brainer?Uk bricks and morter=failsafe investment.LOS bricks and morter= dodgy investment

Dicer says:

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/
afp_asiapacific_business/view/230200/1/.html

This seems directly related too...The anti foreign mood wave is sort of a cyclical thing, as poor economists say.

Another perspective.

Funny thing about Thais is that they'll honour a 30 year property lease. So many people who leased land to let in bkk and became millionnaires dont even live here.... even today the foreign leased land say from Sukhumvit 3-40 is staggering, and that is without including the Japanese property developers. All the people (most of the property ppl in HK and Tokyo in the 80s) who leased to rent are still collecting...

The problem begins when Westerners get this illusion about setting roots here. The house, normalization etc.... even stranger I'd say most condos would not let foreigners buy below fourth floor, something to do with a twisted version of Buddhist cosmology, the law and land being desecrated by farangs; in local trad belief they rate below the "tan" (slaves) who in times gone had at least land entitlement. In fact, the further up you go from the ground anything is allowed whether in Nana shower shows or Rachada debauchery and dissipation. But something about farang obsession about setting up nominal companies to buy land bloody blah in its full foggy traps, deliberately put up that way.

One well meaning friend who's been here for a long time is running around looking for the people who are coowners of his shell company. One was a tuk-tuk driver he only met once, and the other worked in an abbetoir! Now that its new rules renewal time he has to find them and file some papers to prove that they actually own the company.

Fog reality is of course coupled with the savvy, albeit low IQ, local criminal mind. So you have a society where noone tells you their real names and you end up in the police station to complain that Noi nicked all your worldly goods, and the cops roll on the floor laughing...Noi eh? Any last name by any chance?...erm no her name is plain Noi. More laughter.

Craig says:

I was just working a deal on a condo when this news came to light.
The visa old game was one thing but changing the rules to render a condo (or house or business), paid legally with hard earned money, virtually worthless because of a mood changes in the government that will allow me a person to own it but not live in it.
I may have to think about this sound investment a bit more. I have done some crazy things before but buying in Thailand may be a new category of madness.
It is a lousy condo. I am not threat to their paranoia notions that some how me and the condo amount to colonizing Thailand.
Have they ever heard the concept of grandfather laws? People that played under their rules seem to be screwed.
I guess the foreigner jumping through hoops (and winning) in order to be in LOS was not good enough for them. Change the rules overnight……..this new one is a big hoop.
Good luck to you guys in selling your Thai assets. I am sure you will find a big market. Hurry October 1st is very close.
Seems the global market is a one way street in Thailand.
Hey, Thailand is still a fine place for a 90 day drunk. Perhaps they are doing the foreigner a service. Let him sober up every 90 days and count how much money he pissed away. Somehow I do not think the tourist industry will like the outcome.

Combover says:

As I read the IHT article, the one weekend a month tourist will not be affected.

I couldn't see how this would be workable anyway. For the 30 day stay, the process for "business" arrivals is exactly the same as "leisure" arrivals, save for the box you tick on the arrival card.

I make twice monthly business cum hoiliday visits, and I'm not concerned at this stage that these will become unworkable.

Dick Renegade says:

Fuck'em, there is always Cambodia...

Chaing Rai Steve says:

I am looking at this from another angle , that rather than allow farangs to stay here for 90 days , what they really want is for you to go to an embassy and BUY a visa for a year or 6 months, this way they make more money but allow you to stay legally for the time being. Those who have no real cash flow need to leave, how can they possibly stay here without doing something against the law

meister says:

Shouldn't they be more worried about the Laotions, Cambodians, Burmese and Nigerians (who always want to give me their number, yeah I'll call you for a night out mate) hanging about in Thailand?

Andy says:

Thailand is earning itself a laughable distinction of being a Fascist police state; but still hasn't a clue how to run the buses on time. ;-)

SPQR_US says:

Weird...

By the way does anyone know if being married to a Thai is any help at all? I used to know this but forgot. I'm not sure whoever told me before really may have known anyway.

I sure wish the US would take the same tact though. I was in Mexico recently and had trouble coming back with my wife. Although her US Visa was solid, our port authority system is not. We spent a while being grilled (although I have to say they were exceptionally nice and told us that their systems were useless).

Anyway once out of the airport the whole area is filled with illegal aliens. The airport is also crawling with them. We in California are going broke paying taxes to support them and pay for their medical and welfare payments.

In the US if you are white or are a legal immigrant Uncle Sam says; "Fuck You."

Also from what I am reading about this push in LOS on Stickman it looks like the Thai government is really mostly focusing on Indians and Chinese. Sooo...I for one won't miss any Indian tailors.

I have no trouble with Indians or Chinese in general but both populations unchecked could overwhelm the Kingdom. India as a country is a mess and living in China for most is even harder for the average than in Isan. Both Indian and Chinese cultures are very different than Thai and the Thais resent that they are pushing in.

We Farangs for all of our failings (I'm including western born Indians & Chinese here as well) pose far less threat to the established order and really are more ATM like than either the Mainland Chinese or East Indians...

At the end of the day Thailand is a small and not densely populated country realative to either India or China. Thailand also freaks out periodically about both of them. Over the last two years Thaskin has been practically dancing a jig on the table tops to get the US government more involved and intersted in SEA because he is so concerned about China's regional dominance and what that could mean for Thailand.

Historically Thailand has found it far less stressful to deal with the cultures of the west than with the rapacious Indian merchants plying the Andaman. For all of their machinations the Thais really seem to be interested in interacting with western cultures. Granted it an interest that often appears similar to that of a young child torturing a small animal but I suppose it is the thought that counts...

The Thais have also tried hard to manage the flow of Chinese and their slow rise to power within the kingdom. Protected industries are a good example.

Now Bangkok is run some would say by Chinese Thais who succeeded well in the only industries/jobs legislated to them by earlier Thai governments. Not that they want any newer competition.

At the end of the day I am not yet sure if they are pushing at the farangs really this time. Thaskin wants the west too much. Could the latest push affecting farangs also be aimed at the "pirates of Sukhumvit" and the hippie backpacker crowd? That would play well and have little real impact. I hate hippies too so maybe we all win?

Thoughts?...

SPQR_US says:

Yes there is always Cambodia but it is still kind of bleak.

As for UK housing prices, like those of the US don't look for those same high gains this year.

Thailand has a lot to offer and money talks bullshit walks. I still believe that unless you are hippie, backpacker or penniless bum that the Thai love affair with the Baht will prevent them completely blowing themselves up over this. Look at Thai history, they love to do this every so often and it never goes anywhere really.

These days most governements have the same play book.

It is like Enron in the US. They were an obviously guilty company and their shareholder value was already zero. They were then an easy feel good whipping boy for the "perp walk". Yes they were guilty but thousands of other companies especially trading companies and banks were just as guilty and still in business. Nevertheless they were the poster boys they got walked out and shot and every other pig just went right back to the trough.

It isn't time to panic yet, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...

Craig says:

SPQR_US,
I saw another post today from a BKK lawyer’s office that I can’t find now that says the new law says if a Thai marries a foreign spouse then the Thai loses the right to buy Thai properties. Has anyone else seen this? Again people ………this guy has pulled a good one.
Let’s get this right… calm sort it out…….if my Thai wife can’t talk me out of my money because she can’t own anything………is this good?
No it is not. She should be able to steal and lie to me just like before. It is our business .

Craig says:

Gentlemen please, there is no room to speculate on this subject.
Look up the Thai embassy in Washington. Forget gossip. They are clear. 90 days and get out for 90 days. Other visas of merit are no longer listed as being current and obtainable.
So what is the last flight out?

phil says:

so many good farangs long supporting Thai families and living here in the North on thirty thousand baht a month but unable to show four hundred thousand baht in a Thai bank are the ones I feel very sorry for because their Thai wife and kids lose him and he has to go away for ninety days-costs money, and return.

philH says:

Oh well, next year's R&R's will just have to be split between Bangkok/Pattaya and HCM City/Vung Tau. Thailand's loss is Viet Nam's gain and Whacko Thacko and the Tacko Belles can KMA.

Looking on the bright side of life, as we always must, there is an up side to this. Maybe, just maybe, those irritating little jerks on Beach Road Pattaya trying to con folks to go to those condo sales pitches will now fuck off!

Rick H. says:

Cambodia will inevitably follow Thailand's example over time. When poor and underdeveloped, encourage direct foreign investment. Once the money starts rolling in, change the rules of the game. It may take 20 more years, but it's going to happen.

Antonio Gramsci says:

For a long time various fascist and racist groups have adopted the Ancient Roman 'SPQR' as a kind of slogan. It's also a common design of tattoo for racist skinheads all over the world. Just thought people might like to know...

Looper says:

I wonder if I could get away with using my UK passport for 3 months then my Aussie passport for 3 more months - sneaky sneaky?

chris says:

so u mean to tell me if i go out of thailand 3 times ive got to be banned for 90 days,this is complete bullshit.and why they never let us buy property,they dont mind us buying their women do they.well fuck them i say just another thing that puts me off thai people,the only thing this place is good for is the women,fuck them all,ive got a good mind to fuck off to cambodia,the fucking thai scum goverment ting tong makk makk

Craig says:

Claro que si.
I had an epiphany. This may work.
If we could convince Mexicans that the Pacific is nothing more than a wide river and spicy Thai food makes Mexican food taste like candy would be a good start. Possibly spread the word that little brown Thai girls are kind of like “your sister” except clean and sober should be the next step of the “Mexican Reeducation Project” (MRP). Heck I think I have heard Thai people saying something about “your mother”. The coup de gras will be when we tell them how Thai tequila has perverted the word. Heck throw in the Gringos are over there having fun and said you are not welcome to the party. But they want to know how your sister is doing.
No papeles necesario Amigo. Hit that border Baby.
While our new found friends are running cover for us and organizing themselves into mass demonstrations to demand better welfare benefits I think the farang visa status may go to back burner.
That should have them scratching their heads and thinking “those damn farangs got us”. Check mate.
Don’t get me wrong they will want to get the bottom of the MRP issue that I personally do not or have never advocated nor have any knowledge of this project.
Practice your best deer in the headlight look combined with a perfect Thai smile for your subsequent police interview. Now I need all your white asses to repeat after me and memorize this.
“No se Senior”
“Que eso farang”
“No entiendo Senior”
“ No speakie English”
“You need sod for yard”
“You want my siister”

Jack Wow says:

I just did the visa run today. Luckily new passport, first time over the border this trip, but it could've quite easily have been my third. How many farang don't keep up to date with the visa regulations, and just assume they can keep doing the visa runs forever? There's going to be a lot of disgruntled people stuck in Mynmar, Cambodia etc, for ninety days, I fear. If I didn't log on to sites like this I certainly would have been none the wiser.
Incidentally, I've been offered 1million baht to marry a ladyboy so he/she can get a UK visa. Would this mean I am exempt from the new laws as I am married to a Thai?

Looper says:

Its Craayzee Thaksin's Craayzee clear out sale - all farangs must go! He's not asking 1,500 baht... He's not asking 1,000 baht... He's not even asking 500 baht... No, he's GIVING THEM AWAY... by the air-conditioned minibus load...
Coming soon to an impoverished country near you

Dicer says:

a bit of the long historical view to sort the pre visa run jitters...

Thais have been doing this sort of rules tweak on foreigners since the 1700s when Narai told the Portuguese that they were farangs and could only stay for a few months. In all the letters exchanged between the missionaries and the euro courts on whether Thais were human, should they trade with them, could they be converted to Catholicism, what would they do with them then etc etc, a persistent theme emerges about Thais through the ages until the 1940s. One is that unlike the Viets Thais can't fight, but they can do deals. When the Burmese and Khmers refused to deal with the gunboat people and started throwing spears the Thais had lawyers on standby to draft deals with Brits, French, Dutch.... and all the Euros were going "geez who taught these people to do this, they're savages and are supposed to throw spears at us, as savages do, not quote laws and ask what % the deal is and start issuing visas." Well the sneaky people did, and they're still here.

The trick was, King Narai decided that ethnic paddy field Thais, those kicked out of Yunnan by Genghis Khan, were too daft to do anything so he carved the country up and gave it over to the Persian Bunag family (incidentally 40,000 locals with this last name now), the Indian Brahman Singhaseni and Siriwatthanakun families, the Mon origin Chakri family and various Chinese aristo families, to whip and collect tax from said paddy people and deal with perfidious farangs. A country that was like a gambing den for four groups emerged. The result was an elaborate and convoluted number of deals and counter deals. When yanks were having their bash with native Indians, and Brits with the other Indians, these people were issuing visas to dodgy English and Dutch who wanted a piece of the "gambing den" action. "Hey Misteeer...khon angrit, we give you copper mine you want, you give machine, 51% hehehehe..... ok mai?" to which Sir Bowering Bollox responds, "good ole boy, sounds dandy to me, jolly good, you have a deal" and it's giggles all round...."hey misteeeer sign here na kap." hmmm.

Such control more than any spear throwing has always reaffirmed to Thais their existence, and if you dont know what I mean any trip to Suan Plu or a Thai outpost can confirm this. Uniforms, pins, forms, stamps, rules and moving goal posts. No make that flying goal posts. And sweet money exchanging hands. Think about it. Here is a country that could easily have been swallowed up by the Chinese or the Brits, but the sneaky people did their countless deals, assimilated, weathered the storms, resurfaced as monarchies, became fascists, anticommunists, whoremongers, and they're still here. Survivors. The paradox is that they grin and giggle at you mindlessly when you talk about the world and you seriously wonder how they could have lasted for so long when the khmers finished each other off and the Viets got lost in the tunnels ...hehehehe time to do deals with the yanks over the Viets, French over Lao, with the Burmese over Burmese and on and on. More deals more giggles. And the occasional mood waves, which is where we are now.

On a different note the real current comedy is the endless screeching against Tescos and Carrefours and Big Cs? Oh dear. Hang on, against Tesco? I mean, the sewers are boiling underneath the roads and you need to step into Tesco to at least oxidiate yourself into waking up if not to buy the crap in there. Upcountry and bkk slum people travel for miles to spend hours wallowing in the Big C aircon, sniffing 30 different kinds of shampoo and trying out the countless varieties of whitening cream that makes the skin look like wallpaper, hog heaven for locals you see. And then they head home happy, having spent yet another day with minimal slum garbage shuffling.

The overall assumption with the current rabid anti-farang anti-Tesco rhetoric is that bkk bureaucratic twits have their feelers out and know what they're doing. The point is they don't and in fact are just writhing watching and giggling when farangs and slum people squirm. Their fathers did it and so did their grandfathers. A cultural historical low IQ petty nonsense that serves to show who's in charge and life goes on. After six month all is forgotten and it's back to foggy reality again. and more deals and giggles.

Even Mongkuts starchy English governess Anna (of the film's fame) had to do her visa runs and paid several overstay fees too and finally left... the poor woman.... could not write letters to any Guru magazine or MS to let off steam about her visa ordeal, not to mention the lack of eligible men from the betel nut chewing diminutive local variety of them days.

Dick Renegade says:

Jack Wow,

Get the money up front. Those butterflies are tricky bastards...

Craig says:

Dicer,
Did you mention this stuff before? Did you warn people?
Ah, your stuff is well written as well.
It seems they wait until history is forgotten and they have attracted a new pile of rubbs (sic? You know dumb ass dreamers and visionaries or rice farmers…….same same).
The history and insight, by you, is quite good.
Please write more on your thoughts as well as the future outcome of this whatever it is. Hey I will not lose money but there are a lot of folks that will.
I will only lose a dream. All lot of people will lose the dream and their money.
Don’t candy coat it Sir but give an idea if you can. As I have said you do have sound insight and a history (funny word to me) background………..talk a bit more please.

SPQR_US says:

Antonio Gramsci,

Well that is very nice...All SPQR means is the People and Senate of Rome. The organizational structure of the Ancient Roman State has served for over two millennia as the blueprint for western civilization & will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. Rome for all its faults as a great state did contribute a great to civilization. Is that racist, and/or fascist to you as well Antonio?

Just because I see some annoying pigeon-chested Chav prancing around Khaosan Road in Thai made shorts with US Army written across the butt doesn't make me want to go home and tear the medals I got off the wall of my den either.

Today many modern western men such as yourself seem to me; self hating neo-limp wrists constantly in search of a good spanking & refreshing golden shower by a sweaty buffoon fresh from a beheading somewhere.

Any harmless expression of personal pride or honor is anathema to many western geldings these days. I understand that. I am no fascist or racist. I thought it just an enjoyable moniker. Besides I like it and I love ancient history. I refuse to give into to all the self deprecating politically correct crap I am supposed self flagellate over these days. I also don't see the need to change everything I do just because someone whines and pisses themselves over something these days. If you choose to see demons in key holes I’d suggest politely that you first try lowering your dosage.

Funny how twisted the world has become. I am in an interracial marriage so now I am a racist according to you. I complain about the lack of equal treatment for all under the law and I am a fascist somehow? I have borne arms for my country and served as a soldier and I am proud of that. When I served I did so with many nationalities and races and was the richer for it. Today although I work in the corporate sphere I have one of the largest and most diverse teams in our global operations, and I am very proud of that. You can mock me for all of this as well, I expect it.

If you don't like what I write why not just grow a pair of balls and just say so. That's fair enough and I would respect that.

Pax

------

Antonio/Reg: "Besides Xerxes, uh I mean SPQR, what have the Romans ever given us in return?"

Xerxes/SPQR:"the Aquaduct?" et al...

Antonio/Reg: "All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"

Xerxes/SPQR: "Brought peace?"

Jim Dum says:

I heard they are going to implement a new kind of visa. It's called a deposit visa.
Deposit your money and f..k off.

Paul says:

What's the big deal?

People who are here on legitimate, normal visas such as Non - Im B's and ED's are unaffected. Just as are the bona fide retirees.

It is ridiculously simple to obtain and maintain one of these visas. Trust me.

Do you honestly believe that us foreigners should be able to exploit legal loopholes so that we can live here on permanent vacation? Do you think that those here on permanent vacation really make that big of economic impact? (Hint: They don't). In reality, most are leaches livng very cheap lives and contributing next to nothing to the community. I'm sure there are exceptions, but most of the perma tourists I have met have left me feeling like I needed a shower... a bunch of self important schlockmeisters, bullshitters, and twats, most living on some sort of small fixed income from the west (better than actually getting a real job at home, eh?)

Furthermore, many people abusing this loophole are breaking the law and working illegally. Way to be a good guest, asshole. (Tip: they pass out work permits like they're yesterday's newspaper.)

Thailand's visa regulations are a joke. They really will let anyone in the country, and it isn't that hard to stay here legally. That is, of course, if you have a legitimate reason for being here that does not involve being on permanent vacation.

Look up your home country's visa requirements and then complain about Thailand's. I dare you.

Are we supposed to feel sorry for those who paid (alost invariably) cash for a home that they had no guarantee that they were legally required to inhabit? Are they seriously surprised when their shaky, pathetic legal loophole is closed?

Get real people. We all have some of the world's finest educations, and we have excellent logic skills. Let's use them. We are guests of Thailand and have to obey the immigration laws. We don't get a say in the matter. We are at their mercy, just as we have always been, and just as Thais have been when trying to visit the west.

Do you honestly believe that it is your right to live here whenever you want just because you have more money than the locals? Are they supposed to be glad that you have graced their country with your residence?

Antonio Gamsci says:

Thanks for the reply, SPQR. It was very illuminating to gain a further insight into your thought processes and beliefs

Dicer says:

Paul does have a clear point made to the psychotic foreigners drifting along in the fog, which to clarity people would be all too obvious one wonders.

Craig,

No I dont warn, I just sound off about three groups: retarded and flat footed local lumpen shuffling their feet in truly mindless mood based routine, which I variously call the Thai ant farm or bee hive mentality; their mafia and bureaucratic overlords who are deficient of reason, but are masters of dodgy deals and counter deals followed by giggles while drinking whisky soda with their mates; and lastly the deluded, psychotic foreigners who hand over their alpha male, rational faculties at the airport and become blithering idiots without a clue on what is what here. Evolution LOS style, then becomes the survival of the mutant locals, survival of the mafia fittest and survival of farang misfits respectively. Needless to say, I give most of my attention to the mafia fittest as they run the show. The mutants and misfits are the deus ex machina of the improbable gambling den-like history of Thailand which lacks internal logic and linear progression.

Compare to Italy and it's historical alpha male maf families if you like, except Thailand is super wierd because it is an alpha female country where there is no honour code and no random violence while the bigwigs and Murder Inc generals giggle in between deals like girls in pink blouses. This lot have had this historical tenacity at deceptive deal making with anyone, and legendery capacity at bamboozling.

To relate it to current stuff, take a look at the chap who did this interview.

http://in.today.reuters.com/news/
newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews
&storyID=2006-09-15T190628Z_
01_NOOTR_RTRJONC_0_India-267
757-1.xml&archived=False

This is a chance for the immigration people to shine in the spotlight, describing new rules, telling us how it's going to be done etc etc, the big wigs love this stuff; as I said, locals love displaying soft power by day and bumping people off by night when noone is looking. Even better they like too much symbolism: fake bombs, cars circling government houses or silly press briefings like this one Symbolisms, however, should not be ignored. They are warnings or dress rehearsals of sorts.

Re current TRT jitters, the truly amazing thing is for 300 years there are hundreds of occasions where everyone looking would say "this is it, Thais are on each other's throats, it's going to hell," and suddenly they do the deal and giggle and it's over before you finished reading your morning Post. For example in 1991 you had Suchinda and Chamlong on a standoff and all of a sudden Suchinda resigned, got his mansion and pension and it was like nothing ever happened, you blink and they're smiling again. Holy Enchalada! If you go back a bit say 1945, the fascist Phibun government which sided with the Japs shuffled reshuffled bobbed up, sank down, blended and the result was, they shot a few guys, hid Phibun and they said "hehehehe here new government under Pridi," and everyone looking went Holy Gordon Bennett! Excuse the hyperbole, but they are tricky little f*****s. Hard to catch on the act. And never any public detail on what was in the deals. No answers to whys.

Once you figure out this Siam tantra (weave), the seamless mafia country with a propensity to smile, and the fog, you can also expect when it can be unexpectedly violent, derangedly moody or perhaps even full lunar lonnie happy!

And we smile because sooner or later the immigration officers, like all bee people will go back to feet shuffling mode (a la hive mentality) and rules are dribbled all over the place and they do what they feel like. The Fog has its uses.

The flip side is that some of what they say now does have a basis in fact. Pattaya, Samui and Phuket are full of criminals from Isreal, Phillipines, Japan, Russia and the UK. But the reasoning is flawed. Local bosses here love foreign mafia because they are alpha farang males who can do deals. Local mafia know that it's their turf and deals are always in their favour, just the way they knew 150 years ago when big families were dealing with the Brits and when the Brits became pushy it was time to bring in Chinese over their heads. None of this is new really. Cue the giggle.

Bob Friend says:

Is the no renew after 90 days on 30 day visas a reality?? Whats the facts man?? Can anyone quote and give reference to the change document??

Craig says:

Dicer

Being the sidewalk social scientist I am did not help me in discovering the true origin of the Thai smile. I see you not only have that figured out but have connected it to the Thai giggle as well. It is not a pretty picture but I somehow knew it was not going to be.
Harsh words Dicer. You don’t candy coat it do you?
I have not seen this style of writing since the ranting of the late great Dr. Hunter S. Thompson on the subject of fear and loathing.
Well done Sir.

Dicer says:

Well Craig,

"sidewalk social scientist" in LOS would be peripatetic observer, if loaded with a few bottles of gunk the clearer things look and the more pleasant the sidealk.

Harsh words, yes. The reason? Once you see LOS for exactly what it is it can be a very dangerous place. I wonder what Thompson would have made of this place? He'd probably say "a nebulous mutant mafia world, a people so barren they're almost lunar?"

A lot of foreigners can give you a great analysis, but they can't, for their lives, see their place here, can not make that crucial connection, no synthesis as I keep barking, so they get screwed. Moving from alpha males to alpha gerbils. My stance is moving from the academic to the popular to the practical. Did the working years in Thailand, still in Asia but only R & R in LOS, but this place has millions of stories to be written about. And I dont mean the overused go-go crap. Actually most of it has nothing to do with foreigners.

Have you ever read John Berendt's Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil about Savannah Georgia and it's myriad eccentrics, dysfunctionals etc. An excellent book. It has these total losers who shine on paper and real life characters what's more.... people who are scheming nonstop. I think if that book was translated to Thai mamasans and mambo-jumbo lovers, screwed up trannies, and unrepentant alcogamblers would love it..... bkk or where I am up north is like this book multiplied by a thousand times.

If one was invisible one could amble into the meaty corners of Thai society and it's myriad phoneyness ... and the giggly deals... see the alluring mixture of magnolia hairdo-ed Khunyings holding court to bkk's hi-so, the uniformed, the super polite mafia bosses, under banyan trees or on one of Sukhumvit's varandahs, and then we tumble into a drinking den on soi 53 that seems so out of step with the rest of the town it resembles a speakeasy in a future time warp, we step into a mock Californian looking vegeterian restaurant where health and pocket conscious locals as well as foreigners rub shoulders on the way to eating edible fodder, and later on to the lady who can belch out 5000 Thai songs in her riverside restaurant .. not quite the Lady Chablis but a close one..... and ladyboys who crush into farang moo baans. This could be the bkk underneath bkk.... say dig up a cluster of insane characters like dodgy cops, timeless hill people who clean the mansions and throw in the tension between old Bunag and Siriwattanakun money and new Shinawatra and Pokhapand money just as Savannah's preening lot are portrayed in Good and Evil.... one can see old na Ayutthaya's and na whatevers as the old money sitting in empty teak mansions, but still affecting a regal air....but no self mythologising about bkk, no "Bangkok people do like this" type of statement .... could even throw in a bit of Falkener.

Having said all the above, there is no way Bangkok society would open it's door for you to investigate a crime and through that vehicle explore it like Berendt did Savannah so one resorts to creative licence. The point to all this is that there are still new perspectives and poignant dramas to be seen in LOS, very unusual people out there you can diagram with attitude... you can characterise the puke inducing Khunyings down pat with their sneers and their colour mismatched clothes just the same way that Berendt did with Savannah society...all those awful ppl. Of course more stuff happens here in 5 minutes than in a year in Georgia...this is a wild and crazy place with a retard-psycho overlay...bodies all over, weird stuff, drugs, slaves...and hill tribe people coming into town for some fun... and the mindless majority sniffing shampoo in Tesco.

The problem is this..we have no idea what is going on...in Savannah you'd know in two days...you'll never know here unless you know top money or top mafia or the CIA people. Believe me I've seen people sold, bumped off, things dropped from skies, esp upcountry and you'd never know amidst the smiles and giggles and echanted debauchery. So if you looked me up in a bookstore you'd find me, but the rant here is an alternative, rather cheeky outlet.... I think Hunter would have blasted this place away quickly, but LOS requires the slow deliberative observation bloody bloody blah.

On topic, incidentally speaking of Tesco (lol) and farangs here is the latest...

..http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/
main.jhtml?xml=/money/2006/09/15/
cntesco15.xml

Typical linear logic Westerners who seek linear explanation will probably get satisfied with this:

Thaksin is trying to divert attention from Kularb Kaew and foreign ownership laws by looking to sympathise with the shop keepers who lobbied the palace.

What I'd say is: who paid these people to stand in front of the palace. Who bought them food and Chang beer afterwards and gave them 500 baht each and paid for their bus home. And who is giggling now?

Most of this and the visa crap etc is really a sideshow.

SPQR_US says:

Antonio,

Thanks for the reply. That was thoughtful of you and I appreciate it.

In my earlier rant I also forgot to mention another reason I used that name. As an Amercian we get teased bit everywhere we go these days for anything our government may be doing at that particular time. Being that I am not important enough to have caused any of the havoc wrought or to have set up our government, there isn't much I can do about it but just have a laugh and enjoy the company ribbing me at the pub. I mean if I'm just hanging out in the same bar how could I possibly be able to control US foreign policy nonetheless an increasing number of Canadians seem to feel that I ought to oddly enough...

Nevertheless Amercia gets blamed once in a while for trying to be a modern Rome. So While GW may not be our favorite product there are some positive things that I hope we've contributed to history and other's well being. Essentially the Bible(ironically edited by a Roman Emperor) blames Rome(western civilization) for all the world's woes and corruption oddly. As if the middle east were like some sort of bastion of goodwill, tolerance and understanding.

In addition to Roman conquest there was for the most part a rise in the quality of life for everyone who was part of the empire. In Thailand we farang are at times scapegoated and and then cast together as a convenient place to fix the blame. Although I feel that on the whole we make a very favorable and important contribution to Thailand and its well being. Here's my feeble mental calculus:

SPQR = Us (you and me in the west), Us = Farang (of course). SPQR_US (my email address at yahoo) and an American farang. Thus SPQR_US = an American farang in Thailand that's it, no bad thoughts no evil anything, clueless maybe but not evil. ;-)

I'm just like everyone here trying to make sense of the LOS and enjoying the journey. I'm not a skin head ultra-nationalist, chav or anything like that. I have my hair and teeth, a job, and a family. I'm not raging against anything for the most part except maybe: castrating, man hating feminazis occassionally...:-)

Craig says:

Dicer,
I am going to stand down. You have me out classed, on this one, but I would love to read your rants in the future,
I am somewhat confused that the “Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil” can be even loosely connected to the drama here.
No, I can’t see it.
I think all us would like to believe a simple mafia/corruption type of quagmire has resulted in this recent change. Rules we can understand and relate to, and of course deal with because they are, in fact, rules. The cloud of their mafia henchmen is nothing more than corporate lawyers efficient in pay. I respect this is not the issue here and the actual beauty is this is a 300 year game.
It is very difficult to understand the man behind the curtain if the smoke blocks sight of the curtain.
My hat is off to the power in this game.
So your advice to us mutants is what………stand down?
I really don’t think my letter to congress about my affection of Thai pussy will help in light of the famous lack of case in Denver just imported.

Craig says:

Diser,
Why ca't we giggle. Is the farang inferior to the game? No joke. Comment please. Sub topic.
V/R

Common Sense says:

I mean if I'm just hanging out in the same bar how could I possibly be able to control US foreign policy

SPQR_US,

I see we must have been hanging out in some of the same bars since i know just the people you are talking about. Lets get together one day and wave our magic wands to change US foreign policy and satisfy the alcoholic sexpats views of how things should be.

Timpani says:

From : Timpani
Changes to the ‘visa run’ rules:
OK. I’ve read all the blog and I’ve read all the news articles. So here’s my two baht’s worth!
Immigration are a law unto themselves in nearly all countries. Rules and regs. are there to be altered it seems on a whim, and frequently the apparent worth or reason for the changes are in fact not the real reason at all. Such may be partly the case here. Thai Rak Thai party are having problems and may want to deflect criticism with a foreigner bashing session, as has been mentioned elsewhere. Note I said ‘foreigner’ not farang. This latest change may well affect all foreigners not just Caucasians.
In order to understand some of it one needs to understand the Thai mentality.
Firstly the Thai people are and have long been terrified of colonialisation, invasion or ‘being taken over’ by foreign interests. To the point of paranoia. Most of the land laws and immigration rules are made with this in mind. They are of course not the only country with these considerations high on priority lists.
Secondly, in general, Thai culture is very heirarchical. Younger brother defers to older; both defer to parents, all defer to authority (government, uniforms, etc.) So, even if the local head of immigration knows the rule changes will adversely affect a lot of respectable, innocent folk, and is badly worded with lots of gaps in the logic, he is unlikely to phone his boss in Bangkok and say “hey, boss this is silly, we should only change this and this ……” – he will kow-tow and try to get round the problems created. “getting round the problem” is a Thai speciality. Rarely do they confront the issues head on.
Similarly, General whatsitsface in Bangkok won’t go to the government guru who dreamt up this latest piece of ill-worded and muddled legislation, saying how it could be altered. He will just lay down the rule to his minions and let them get on with it.
Even if, by some miracle, the good General does see fit to remonstrate it’s not likely that anything would come of it because of another Thai trait : they cannot abide losing face. In common with most Asians they would rather perpetuate an error than admit to it and ‘lose face’.
So where does all that get us ?
The Thais are quite correct in stating that the 30 day entry stamp is not designed as a permanent method for staying in Thailand indefinitely. Get the appropriate visa in your own country and proceed from there. All well and good . BUT, no matter what kind of visa you have and no matter how respectable, rich, influential or whatever, you are, you must remember we are still just ‘guests’. They can change the rules, and do from time to time, overnight. (The apparent abolition of the investmet visa is a case in point) Why anyone would actually buy a condo, much less a house, in the light of that, remains a mystery to me. I’ve been living here, on a retirement visa, for 5 years, and until I can be assured of a right of abode, I will not buy . I rent.
The long term effects of this are problematic. It could cause a severe drop in foreign currency revenue – not because of the loss from those directly affected by this, but because it puts another question mark on the viability of living and/or investing in Thailand. It could cause a further question mark over the property market. However the Thais will not be considering this because of yet another Thai trait : they cannot, for the most part, think beyond next Thursday, bless ‘em!
Finally, one must remember that the expression ‘mai pen rai’ does not mean ‘never mind’ or ‘don’t mention it’, according to context. 90% of the time it means ‘I don’t care’ !
And they don’t. An acquaintance of mine once said :
“Land of Smiles! They ain’t smiling. They’re having a fucking laugh!”

Dicer says:

Craig,

Mutants are locals, farangs are misfits. Just look at this place. Also mafia is not simply a few people. The whole place is organised in such a way that there are sketchy rules and turfs and so many mafia groups starting from the big families to the cops and the factions of the military and then you have the provincial and the small time thugs who you see on the newspapers all the time. When I say mafia it is not like the US where these are total badies shooting people left and right. In Thailand how it works is that once the bad boys attain influence and power they seek legitimacy and approval so they switch to public personalities, dish out money and buy patronage, even have royal medals. However they still retain their dark powers when turf wars spark up. The point is everyone knows everybody else. The cops know all the Jao Po (godfather) people and their stooges. And there is nowhere to hide. When you see dead people on the papers it's mostly symbolic rather than an out and out war, the south excepted of course. The beauty of it is everyone knows the basic rules of the game, which can change, but most will not tolerate Phillipines type street violence and there is a wide room for discretionary deal making.

In this weave, misfit farangs can bob alongside the mutant locals unaware what is going around them. Or you can play the game and giggle too, as long as you remember that it's not your turf and any deals you make will be to your local partners advantage. However if you are the outlaw farang type or one of those dodgy foreigners who dabble in borderline deals and know how this bunch work you can do anything, and remarkably they usually stick to their end of the deal.

The visa stuff as I said is a sideshow. There are no hard and fast rules here. What I suspect it will allow them to do is weed out a few people they dont want and carry on as usual.

Midnight in...Good and Evil is one example, analogy if you like, a way of portraying how crazy and wierd a society can be.

Hash9 says:

SPQR means "Sono pazzi questi Romani" according to Asterix.
Makes good sense in Thaksinland

Adam says:

Is anyone really surprised about this visa/nominee stuff? The farang community is always a covenient target whn domestic politics gets fragile. Is there any other country where buying a woman on the street is easier than buying a pack of cigarettes? Is there any other country where the sale of alcohol is banned on election days and various public holidays but enforced only in farang establishments where the customers don't even have the right to vote? Is there any other country where my one year work permit is valid for only 3 months at a time?

I also predict that things will get worse, not better. A smart government would ban visa runs (no bad thing really) but make one year, multiple entry easier. The Thai government, allegedly, is going to crack down on the one year visas too. A smart government would encourage foreign investment and foreign skills. A smart government would understand that a ban on investment visas may well hasten a property crash.

The solution will no doubt be the usual Thai solution.......paying more money to get what u need.

Andy says:

Well, there's an election coming soon. Nationalism is always a vote-winner come vote-buying time. In every country.
Some creepy little cunt just got arrested in Bangkok, in a high-profile legal fuck-up that Fox News was happy to plaster all over the world with words like "pedophile" "paradise"; "corruption" and "Thailand"; etc. You have to expect some reaction...

Dicer, Hunter S. Thompson would have at least scored some good drugs and women before going on a misanthropic rant-fest that was at least entertaining and funny.
You, on the other hand have amassed a wealth of insider knowledge; hearsay; gossip; and generalisms to specifically slag off LOS with absolutely no positive relief / perspective whatsoever. That maybe says a lot about you as a person. You are a misanthrope. Probably one who got badly burned here.
Tell us how clever you are in an intelligent way, perchance Mr Chuckles?

Dicer says:

Andy,

ahem ahem

The only positive relief is to get a little yo-yo and diddle her till you get exhausted. And you are wrong, I have my stash of Afghan right here, makes the surrounding look like a sepia coloured photo....and all of this a one big smirking session.

Misanthrope eh? well allow me monsieur if I scoff at mutants and misfits. I like the mafia geezers though.

BTW the perspective is called dog psychology. More of it somewhere else.

Dicer says:

Andy,

What is this banging on about perspectives? You have perspectives raining down like hailstones. Facing to harsh realities is what it is called.

You know, you theorise about "Well, there's an election coming soon. Nationalism is always a vote-winner..." this is what we call rationalising and stacking up assumptions upon assumptions. The bottom line is that they are acting on a whim and concoting rules out of nowhere. I've been here long enough to know how they tick.

And your more assumptions. You went from thinking I had no money to assuming that I was burned in Thailand. hehe. No I did not get burned here. In fact, I did extremely well in all aspects while I could and am watching in amusement ...scoffing at the retarded little rice hookers and their psychotic Hyperborean men walking in total fog.

Retarded btw means neural stasis. And psychotic means superimposing your realities and ideas on others' realities and pretending Korat is Ohio.

What makes the psychotic even more pathetic is seeing the alpha Western male ego reduced to a zeta gerbil, whimpering and grovelling to the puny hookers.... puke inducing to eternity. Psychotic foreigners who think STD riddled, retarded shampoo sniffing rice slappers are heaven. The Sewer Vortex. Facing up to harsh realities. The whirling sewer vortex sucking you in, just like those dancing dervishes whose heads might snap any minute and dribble down the steps into the manhole.

In Buddhism and enlightenment the first thing they tell you is to get a grip on reality; that preety little bird on the window ledge is covered in lice, the cute tart will become an ugly old hag, the other cute tart is HIV positive...monks go to the morgue to meditate on dead bodies. That is just the beginning. So no positive relief mate. And diddling the little yo-yos is not a relief. Call it psychotic dissipation.

chris says:

LOOK IF YOU AREN'T MARRIED TO A THAI WOMEN WHO YOU TRUST WITH YOUR LIFE AND MONEY THEN GET OUT OR SIMPLY BE A TOURIST AND COME HERE ONCE A YEAR. I THINK WHAT THE THAI PEOPLE ARE GETTING PISSED OFF ABOUT IS THE FACT THAT THERE SEEMS TO BE A HUGE POPULLATION OF FARANG LIVING IN BANGKOK WHO DO NOT CONTRIBUTE TO THE COUNTRY AND LOUNGE ABOUT TELLING US ALL HOW SHIT IT IS HERE. YOU ARE ALL A BUNCH OF LOW LIFE SCUM WHO JUST COME HERE TO BE LAZY AND HAVE SEX WITH WOMEN BECUASE BACK HOME YOU ARE TOO UGLY TO GET A DECENT LOOKING GIRL SO YOU COME HERE AND PAY FOR IT. GO HOME BECUASE YOU ARE GIVING PEOPLE LIKE ME A BAD REPUTATION. I PAY MY TAXES ! DO YOU ?

Grunt says:

Methinks dicer has been reading too many MI6 training manuals. Stay away from those freemasons as well, dude. No good can come from it...but perhaps thats the whole idea?

I can respect your, for lack of a better word, "perspective" yet all I can do is wave my hand afront your glassy eyes and ask you a simple questions that cuts to the quick.

"Are you honestly saying white men get worse treatment in the LOS then they would in the UK, or America, or Australia?"

Granted, catering to the globalist contrived apathy and bitterness may work on submoronic Americans, but there is a higher aggregate among this group.

There may or may not be much pontification on this issue, but in the end there is a difference between jaded and delusional.

Maybe dicer would be better off over at americanwomensuck.com?

Andy says:

Thanks for that, Dicer. So you're not misanthropic at all then?

Mick from Isle of Man says:

Fuck 'em there is always Italy. Why you UK flunkies travel half way aroudn the world when you ahev the most beautiful women in the world 2 hours away is beyond me. Beautiful women with brains and no one snickers behind your back when your walking down Thames Street with an Italian Beauty around your arms. 20 trips to LOS in 5 years and I am content to never return and enjoy myself in Italy.

Grunt says:

Italy?

Even being of Italian heritage, I admit Italy is as far up my list as Zimbabwe or Angola (war-babes not withstanding).

I married a Ukrainian lady 10 years my junior, but had I not I would be in Brazil or LOS.

Just say no to flabby, smug, Eurotrash harpies.

Dicer says:

Grunt, I have no idea what you're on about but suffice to say that I dont have a problem with women anywhere. Rather it is people's inability to think and connect the reality around them to their own lives and act upon that that I find disappointing. And the whimpering and the posturing to boot.

And I mention the local mafia because Thais dont have the morality that good shall prevail that you hear in the West. The essence here is harmony between good and evil. Most would say that 50% baddies and 50% goodies is acceptable when I point out that most of the govt is crminalised. So there is this strange competition between the maf characters to look good and be seen as purveyors of justice, so at least at some superficial level they do good. I find such local personalities interesting, because they are what most Thais are not. Alpha males who progress through individual effort and have attained success to such a level that they're not scared to tell you what they think, do what they want and subsequently turn out to be super polite people who wai even the lowest peons and are confident of their abilites so they dont grin and look like pathetic doormats. And I'm not talking about scum thugs in karaoke bars here but big jao po who are real patriarch figures.

Andy,

I wouldnt use that word. Having no faith in the direction of evolution does not make one a misanthrope, perhaps rueful and despondent I'd say. I have a good relationship with many people up here in the hills and everywhere. Like some of the hill people in Chiang Rai for instance, warm and wonderful bunch. And the Khmer's too; you make friends with them like with normal people and once they get to know you they'll do anything for you. Real kinesthetic lot. They can, of course, rob and kill you too. With central Thais it is different. In a culture excercise I once showed colleagues The Killing Fields. And all of them thought Dith following Sydney around was totally stupid. Most suggested that any Thai would cut and run. I mentioned things like loyalty, friendship etc for discussion. In the end the majority was take the money and run. For me that was food for thought. Having said this though there are exceptions with people...

There is no point in having suspicion and unease when you live here, only and only if you can synthesise local thinking in an intellectually honest way, even if that offends the sensibilities of others, and see exactly how it affects you and proceed to how you should act towards it. Any one who can do this can live here successfully. The supreme irony is that it is mostly the foreign criminals who have sussed this out and it's almost as if they have found a niche. And visa or not these guys usually get what they want.

Re Italy, I'd say smoking bongo and chilling in the Northern LOS hills where everything would look like an impressionist canvas is a close second to the real thing; Chilling somewhere in the Tuscan hills (no bongo needed) with good food wine and any tolerable company. Some similarities in the culture too. Esp with the Calabria and Sicily lot.

Matthew says:

Whilst my comments may not add to the general quality of debate, I am looking at buying a house in Thailand. If anyone (David?) can be bothered I would love the inside track on the legality or otherwise of so doing.

I am happy to enter into a seperate email correspondence with anyone who really knows what they are talking about.

I would also be happy to reimburse anyone who is prepared to make the effort to inform me, with copious beers etc... in a venue of your choice.

Matthew says:

I blame the whiskey. I just provided a lengthy post but failed to fill in my contact details...

Here they are.

manjic@mac.com

Grunt says:

Ok dicer, I respect your opinion but again I ask that the root question be addressed.

Sure, there are cultural variations everywhere, to each his own, etc etc.
Nicey nice and so forth.

Yet I cant help but wonder about the veracity of anyones claim perspsective when it is weighed against a known value.

Seriously dicer, will you now or ever state unequivocally that the treatment white western men get in the LOS is quantifiably worse then what they already get in the UK, America or Europe for that matter?

Failing to do so will place you dangerously close to the behavior seen on the myriad of angry harry type websites out there created by "men" *cough cough*.

Falling to Faustian wolf pack analogies is merely reducing the entire subject to "I bet I can be more socially inept then the locals". That in itself is close enough to the "All men are pigs" and its johnny-come-lately opposite number of "All women are the same where ever you go".

Why do I get the feeling there is a paradigm playing out here, dicer. So many western females trying to browbeat men into avoiding that fatefull first trip overseas. Knowing that once a man goes that route, his eyes are opened...evermore.

I would venture to say you are opposed to the very idea itself, dicer. And of course that begs the next question...

"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas?" - Joseph Stalin

anonymous says:

Had to use the "scroll down" button alot on this one. The comments are getting too long and boring to read.

Dicer says:

I think the advise to write anything, just anything has prompted some poor sod above to tell us about his scroll using skills.

Grunt,

"cultural variations everywhere, to each his own"

this is called relativism and stinks. There is a standard to judge all cultures by. When you see a sewer you have to say a sewer, not swimming pool.

"..will you now or ever state unequivocally that the treatment white western men get in the LOS is quantifiably worse then what they already get in the UK, America or Europe for that matter?"

Of course it is. However how you get treated is upto you. If you hand over your alpha male status and start whimpering then women will jump on you anywhere. What makes it tricky in LOS is the added cultural factors. New place new rules. The problem here is being able to connect to ones new surrounding in more ways than is superficial and act on it. Bright people can make that happen but they have a cultural baggage to unload before. How can you unload your operating assumptions, if you have not examined them? and replace them with what? The answer is reality.

About men and women I call it dog psychology and have barked on the topic somewhere else. It's like the pre-intellectual cutting edge animal world where women or people in general are cunning and detect weakenesses in you and exploit it to the fullest. And taking prozac or ego pumping drugs wont help. That will be cheating, just the same way as self medicating when you cant get a hard on is. A hard on should be had legitimately or not at all, as whatshisface said, at least from the alpha male, in control point of view. The point though is that you should be in charge esp esp in a gender role based peasant culture like this.

Lex Impudens says:

The new visa rules mean in a nutshell that you can stay maximum of 90 days in Thailand and must not return to Thailand for 6 months.

Lets try and identify the folks who will be hit by the new rules:

1. Non working foreigners legally married to a Thai (possibly with children) who cannot show 400,000 Baht in a bank account and thus cannot get a spouse visa. Will children be deported too if they do not have Thai nationality?

2. Foreigners living with a Thai partner but not legally married. Unless they can obtain a retirement visa (see 3 below) they are caught. Will children be deported too unless they can establish Thai nationality?

3. Non working single foreigners, or foreigners married to a non Thai (possibly with children) who are less than 50 years old and have income less than 65,000 Bt pm or less than 800,000 cash in a bank account in Thailand and thus cannot get a retirement visa

4. Foreigners who are working illegally from home or in small businesses and cannot raise the 2 million Baht and hire 4 Thai staff so they can get a work permit

Seems to me that there will be a lot of people caught and the foreign embassies in Bangkok Kuala Lumpur Phnom Penh Vientiane and Singapore will have long queues outside their offices waiting for assistance

What comes next, Kristallnacht?

Lex Impudens

bangkokram says:

I'm just about ready to apply for a new Non Immigrant O spouse Visa.
As usual, even though I live in Thailand I use the Thai Consulate at Hull. Their website "www.thaiconsul-uk.com" offers the best advice of how to obtain a visa.
Their homepage as changed with a message about the new laws due on oct 1st. Basically, they don't know of any changes. They explain all about the 30 day tourist visa and the fact that they have not been informed of any limit changes.
I can't help but think there are a couple of Hi-so's at the Immigration Dept pissing themselves about all the fuss and panic their info leak caused.

Grunt says:

"...will you now or ever state unequivocally that the treatment white western men get in the LOS is quantifiably worse then what they already get in the UK, America or Europe for that matter?"

"Of course it is." - dicer.

So millions of svelte, easily accessible LBFM's in the LOS are, in your mind, worse then fat, smelly, mental defective mingers spilling over the rim of the UK, America, or Australia? Are you on any medications that we should be made aware of, dicer?

THC is supposed to improve ones vision, isnt it? Or maybe its something your not seeing. Or refusing to see. Anyhow.

"The point though is that you should be in charge esp esp in a gender role based peasant culture like this."

Ok are you gonna start in with the Gaia worship stuff next? A bit of the crystals and pyramids? Hey, whats your nick over at www.americanwomensuck? I bet its 'celtic druid', right? I take it your just making the rounds, then? Always the propagandist!

Ok dicer, maybe you could tear yourself away from the UNIX manual long enough to answer this. If the LOS is so horrible, why not pack your little bags and depart, forthwith? Post haste in fact!

Whereas the rhetoric of self appointed elitists may work to dissuade the average beer-swilling American know-nothing, it makes me want to visit Thailand all the more. And Im already married!

Thanks dicer!

Coup Supporter says:

Hopefully the new Thai government will repeal this draconian 3 x 30 day tourist visa's and you're out law.

Yeeha! Yeeha! Ariba! Ariba!

My buddies and I are going out to celebrate tonight. We're going to bring some booze down to the troops surrounding Thaksin's offices.

Yeeha! Yeeha! Ariba! Ariba!

Common Sense says:

Wonder if these new laws will be a problem since the people of Thailand decided that Thaksin can't come home. Hopefully the dick won't be applying for asylum in the U.S.

sniffer says:

Well done David! Who sez that laddish blogs about having it off with Thai prozzies and stuff have no power? One entry about new visa rules is all it takes for the generals sit up and take notice and kick the Chiang Mai chancer out on his arse.
Do you have plans for anything similar on Dubya and BLiar?

Dicer says:

Grunt,

I'm not here for the women. R&R. They are lousy is all. The fat slags in euro US are even worse. At the end of the day stay an alpha male and you'll prevail. I have no idea what the rest of your statements are. I'm just saying facing up to harsh realities helps.

Jack Wow says:

Are you feeling OK, dicer?
A bit of a short post for you.
With so much going on in the past 24 hours I was looking forward to one of your "War and Peace" length posts. Still, at least you manged to fit in an "alpha male" reference as usual.

Dicer says:

Jack Wow,

yeah well, allow me to be a little distracted here. I've been amusing myself with mindless people shuffling their feet in the shopping malls. One smiles, and I said to her "hmmm, buying a new brand of whitening cream to celebrate the new govt".... and duh look on the face. Obviously no clue as to what's going on. Another one said, "I dont care, my salarly is not going to go up." What I used to like watching were the mean looking slum central thais in bbk shopping for skinwhitener and by mistake getting into sun tan lotion...and they sneer at the product.

Anonymous says:

They actually sell sun-tan lotion in LOS? Buggered if I can find it.
I always get the same when I go back to England: "How come your not brown?"
I suppose the old skinwhitener must work then.

Dimmi says:

"...will you now or ever state unequivocally that the treatment white western men get in the LOS is quantifiably worse then what they already get in the UK, America or Europe for that matter?"

In the US I am a superfluous male. In short I am not a man, in my own country. The women of my own culture have no use for me. In my own country I am a waste of space.

Well I'm not going to give away too many secrets, but the (police states) of Asia also treat me far better as a peon than the police state apparatus of my own country. In my own country I have my face stepped on a thousand times more than ever occured to me in Asia through lengthy stays and travels.

"Alpha status"--?

In America if you are not a member of the political elite, or the police/federal police elite you are, and are often reminded and trained to your low low third class citizen status.

Give me Asia anyday and begging for sex from attractive women there, at least I get it there unlike the cold stares at "home."

Eniac says:

I wonder what type of visa allows Mr T to reside in the UK.

Or is he regarded as an asylum seeker now?

Dicer says:

They gave him "indefinite leave to remain," type of visa a while ago as he has property and lots of investments in the UK. Until the generals revoke his passports - if they do at all - at least one being the diplomatic one he was traveling on, he can go about as he pleases. There is no knowing about them. The Thai embassy in LDN said that they are there to help and he can stay there too... eh?

Eniac says:

Interesting.

Plenty of British crooks are hiding out in Thailand so perhaps they've worked out some kind of reciprocal arrangement.

Dicer says:

You guessed it. LOS has what is known as a "Prime Minister's visa" for so called experts and exceptionally dodgy characters. Indians, vaguely Italian looking fellas and of course Brits. I think it was introduced around 98. As long as big money is involved though we can only speculate about this one.

Eniac says:

My remark was meant to be tongue in cheek but, on reflection, you never know what goes on behind the scenes.

It looks like Thaksin is all set to become the new Mohamed Al-Fayed.

The footie-loving phoney pharaoh didn't want to pay income tax either.

Dicer says:

In this case though the tongue in cheek remark is spot on. Al-Fayed isnt all that bad. Thaksin on the other hand is a rumbling evil idoit who killed a lot of people. Margaret Beckett (maybe they should call her Khunying Beckett) was defending Thaksin on BBC Radio 4. Repugnant.

sandman says:

I, like many Brits, have two passports. It is legal. would the man know if I used them to get round this visa issue.......but anyway now there has been a coup won't the implimentation of the new rules be abandoned?

bill says:

You folks need to look on the bright side. You spent you 90 days in LOS with your honey then you have the perfect excuse to fly to PI and spend 91 days there with your honey. No excuses required You tell thai girl "Honey, I have reset my visa twice so now have to leave for 90 days. I love you and will call everyday, but the government says I must go." You kiss the kids goodbye and off to PI. Four hours later you land in Manila kiss wife two hello and say "I love you honey, glad you waited for me, it's a shame but I will have to go back to thailand in 91 days because of my work" Short drive give hugs and kisses to family two have great sex drop the bhuddist rhetoric and become a good catholic for 90 days. Then back to LOS a mandatory trip to the temple cause your bhuddist again "kiss wife one hello, hugs to kids" repeat cycle as necessary. This is my plan and I like it. So stop bitching.

Dicer says:

Here is a genuine case. Woe betide anyone who does not do his homework and even if he does may be he should consult the mo phi too.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/10/29/
letters/letters_30017405.php

AngloTeuton says:

Digging desperately around the net I see this official but un-dated announcemnent: http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/
base.php?page=90days

does this mean the 90in/90out policy is OUT? Read yourself:

Notification of staying in the Kingdom over 90 days-

Procedure and notification

1. The foreigner makes the notification in person, or
2. The foreigner authorises another person to make the notification, or
3. The foreigner makes the notification by registered mail.
4. The notification must be made within 7 days before or after the period of 90 days expires.
5. The first application for extension of stay by the foreigner is equivalent to the notification of staying in the Kingdom over 90 days.

Offices accepting notification:

1. Counter 3, Immigration Bureau Office, Soi Suanphlu, Bangkok
2. Visa extension units, Ratchada Centre (BOI)
3. Immigration offices throughout the country

Notification by registered mail

1. Copy of all passport pages (up to the latest arrival stamp in the Kingdom or latest visa stamp)
2. Copy of arrival/departure card TM. 6 (front and back)
3. Previous notifications of staying over 90 days (if any)
4. Completely filled in and signed notification form TM. 47
5. Envelope with 5 Baht stamp affixed and return address of foreigner for the officer in charge to send back the lower part of form TM. 47 after having received the notification. This part must be kept for reference and for future notifications of staying over 90 days.
6. The above mentioned documents must be sent by registered mail and the receipt of the registration kept by the foreigner.
Send the mail before the renewal date 7 days to

90 DAYS REGISTRATION, ROOM 206
IMMIGRATION BUREAU,
507 SOI SUANPLU,SOUTH SATHORN RD.,
THUNGMAHAMEK SATHORN
BANGKOK. 10120

Note

* The notification of staying in the Kingdom over 90 days is in no way equivalent to a visa extension.
* If a foreigner staying in the kingdom over 90 days without notifying the Immigration Bureau or notifying the Immigration Bureau later than the set period, a fine of 2,000.- Baht will be collected. If a foreigner who did not make the notification of staying over 90 days is arrested, he will be fined 4,000.- Baht.
* If a foreigner leaves the country and re-enters, the day count starts at 1 in every case.
* For details contact 0-2285-5142, 0-2287-3101-10 ext.2262, 2263

Ian says:

Antonio Gamsci. Why don't you think before you speak rather than just repeat what others have said. It is better to deal in fact than say things that sound nice.

Anonymous says:

hey SPQR_US
"In the US if you are white or are a legal immigrant Uncle Sam says; "Fuck You."

I dont think so because if this is the case then believe me it will be major lawsuits, frenzy media and will definitely destroy the Uncle Sam. I am caucasian and believe me, i am not a person to fuck with and neither all the 200 million caucasians in US. It just takes one media news to highlight how Uncle Same says fuck you to caucasians and the Uncle Sam will run with its tails between the legs. I dont know where you got that idea.

Grunt says:

"It just takes one media news to highlight how Uncle Same says fuck you to caucasians and the Uncle Sam will run with its tails between the legs." - Anonymous

You mean the same media outlets that are owned by multi-national corporations that just LOVE how illegal immigrants lower average wages, thus increasing profits?

Dont hold your breath.

But when you do start breathing again, try not to overlook the 30 MILLION illegals in America...growing by 3000 a night.

http://www.rense.com/general70/recon.htm

The war is already over. We lost.