Aristocrat misses flight & dies in Bangkok jail

Dana says:

Two things here:

1. One of the most ignorant things I heard a farang say regarding the Thailand-World situation is: 'if everyone stopped going to Thailand that would teach them a lesson'. No it would not teach them a lesson. They don't care.

2. Regarding acts of individual or government malfeasance the most uninformed thing you can do is assume calculation. There is not calculation on the part of the Thais. They are stupid.

3. When you factor in your personal risk in Thailand from government entities the cost of sex in Thailand is incredibly high. The fact that the total bill is rarely presented can lull you into a false sense of security.

bangkokram says:

I believe he died from complications due to Diabetes, a complaint he was apparently unaware he suffered from.

Also something the Prison Doctor said he didn't have the expertise in diagnosing.

Very, very worrying.

DRB says:

I just cannot for the life of me imagine going into a southeast asian country without a clear itinerary, connections to my support in case I step in legal shit, blood money in case I need to baksheesh out of a blunder, a solid exit strategy which I re-work if I change plans, and a self-contained legal and economic status - who the fuck would i ever want to tell anything about my visa, my money, or anything remotely approaching my legal vulnerabilities? I just cannot conceive of travelling without my affairs in order. I thought I was one of many many fish of that who swim foreign waters with all caution, knowing that my american birthrights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness are gone in a flash if I cannot pull myself out of trouble quickly.

A casual warning to anyone who ever dimes me out, or those who pay a call on their behalf: If my bribes and other tangiental self-rescue moves do not work, and I see the inside of a Thai jail - disappear quick, because I will go on a killing spree, if needs be by proxy. If I am to rot for some minor fart of an infraction, my betrayors will surely die, I should promise.

kwai bah says:

"He was arrested for (foolishly) altering the date on his transit visa"

How cheap was this guy ?

Seriously, the penalty was way out of proportion, but he was a millionaire (by inheritance no less) who was trying to save a few measley baht.

If it's any indication of his general character.............

Could be karma.

SPQR says:

I wonder if there is more to this story? Does anyone know?

Given that this guy is rich and obviously miserly I see a possibly fatal combination of greed and arrogance.

Also if true that high level calls on his behalf went unanswered I suspect he may have either pissed somebody off pretty bad somewhere, or he was too cheap and stupid to pay the $50 bribe to get out...

Just a thought.

Paul says:

Honestly, I'm not so sympathetic.
Over staying your visa in any country is a huge deal. Most will not allow you to pay a fine. Look at what western countries do to Thai tourists who overstay. You can bet that they're not allowed to exploit a loophole and use tourist visas as a means of residence.

If I can reside in Thailand on a legal visa, so can you. They require next to nothing in support of an application and pass out Non Im visas like candy.
I applied for mine at the LA consulate. They received my envelope on a monday and I had my passport back by Thursday morning at 10 am.

If you want to disrespectful and willingly break the laws and then take up an attitude that the Thais should be grateful that you are blessing them with your presence, you will find yourself in trouble. They don't need you, they don't need your measly baht, and they certainly don't need your self rightgeous know it all attitude. A Thai who exhibited some of these same attitudes would find himself dead should he open his mouth in Farangland.

I thought Imperialism is dead.

As for the Thai prisons bit... I will honestly say that finding myself in a Thai prison is my biggest fear. I would not last. However, I realise that i would not last much longer in a US prison- which are violent, full of drugs, run by gangs, and with living conditions that are not much better. Look at Arpaio's Tent cities in Phoenix. This guy has jails outside in the Phoenix heat with his inmates living in Tents and eating $.70 worth of food each day. hardly what i would call 'civilised'.
I do my best in Thailand and in the US to avoid jail, and I think that I will be successful- I avoid anything shady like the plague.

I find it very funny when folks from the US and UK complain about Thailand's immigration laws when their own countries are looking to tighten their already excessive controls. You have it very good in Thailand, but still choose to break the law, and then have the audacity to complain more? I'd throw your ass in prison in a heartbeat.

chris says:

well when i went to uk i stayed over 1 day in bkk and then sent me to office when i got there they laughed saying its only 1 day dont worry.so i cant belive this story!

Derukugi says:

I hate to sound cold, but in German news reports about this, another picture emerges.
Apparently, he initially wanted to extend the visa, but the queue was too long, so he decided to do the extension himself.

That is plain stupid arrogant. He was too lazy to wait, and he had too little respect of local authorities worry that they would actually grab him. That is European royalty at its worst, sorry.

OXO says:

Please keep taking the medication DRB…..given time it will work

Eniac says:

Arrogant or not, this gentleman no more deserved to die than the unkind men who post snide remarks. You sound quite arrogant yourselves so start praying that what goes around doesn't come around.

To ward off poetic justice, please take extra care when filling out your travel documents during your next sex-tour.

My condolences go out to Christoph's family.

John says:

There is no fine for a one day overstay at the BKK airport. Only if you overstay for 2 days or more do you pay for the first day.

Mac says:

Well, I guess the authorities feel they have to lock SOMEONE up, and since the decidedly short arm of local law enforcement can't seem to reach the murderers of human rights and environmental activists, or the killers of school teachers, or the murderous children of politicians, that leaves the heinous von Hohenlohe types: the long-nosed, white-skinned foreign devils whose pernicious flouting of Thai laws poses a grave threat to the very fabric of society.

Let them get away with a two day overstay and the next thing you know, they'll be doing something really nefarious, like trying to buy a bottle of wine at 4 o'clock in the afternoon.

Mr Thaksin, bangkokchat.org says:

paul you cretin, without old farrang baht BKK would still be today one big rice field as it was 30 yrs ago.

Histwhorian

Thaky.

daniel says:

im not sure why the guy could'nt pay his way out.....belive me i know.

my hotel wes being robbed the police came checked all the paasoprts as they thougt a foriengner was doing it i was overstay four days and hey presto i ended up with another girl who overstayed one day, in the pattaya beach road jail.

belive me, the police do everything they can to relive of any cash " hey you,! give me ATM card, i go take money for you...ok mai".!

while i was there another guy came in with blood down his shirt and was quite drunk, he told me that he had stabbed a polish guy in marine nightclub on walking street. he also told me that the police had the knife with his fingerprints on it.

he then told me that his father was going to send some money to get him out, now as the was saturday night he had a whole day to sort things out because i have to say if you get arrested at the weekend you have a much better chance of sorting things out, as the courts dont open until monday.

anyway sunday evening came and the money had been given to whoever and he was out.

i stayed there another 5 days and i did'nt even kill anybody.

i just dont get this story was this guy stupid, ok overstay is one thing but altering a document well thats just adding fuel to the fire.

one guy i read about got ten years for forging travellers cheques.

anyone got any anwsers.

Craig Allison says:

Interesting to say the least.
On the last trip (May) I came closer to being murdered than any time in my life by a drunk Tuk Tuk driver in Chaing Mai.
Preceding that precious night I was stopped in BKK for overextending my cig and booze allowance for the 6 week stay.
Yes I am clearly a criminal.
After the 40000 THB fine I was allowed to proceed minus the contraband, That was now in the ownership of the LOS.
The nice lawyer I had explained to me that I smoke and drink too much but if I need to do such I should go to the 7/11 and buy Thai comities. He said I was a bad influance for the Thai people.
I of course waied (sic) and was on my way.
Interesting to say the least.

SPQR says:

Amazing...

So let me get this straight you can kill someone in Pattaya (stab anyway) and you can buy you're way out...so tell me again how sleaze-bags can't get out of anything in LOS, or how unfair it is to farangs who just want to live and let live?

This only adds fuel to my theory that Mr. Blue Blood must have made somebody pretty mad or was a raging moron.

As for immigration in the US it serves as a wonderful proof of pure corruption at the highest levels on both sides of our political system.

In the US the only people to get busted in any real numbers are the people who at least tried to do something to follow the rules. If you just crawl under the fence or come in totally illegally they wouldn't think of running you out or of putting you in Jail for very long anyway. They actually operate repatriation flights (free to the people who are caught) at taxpayer expense. They send these guys back to wherever they came from. They did a special the other night on CNN where this guy was all bummed out because he had been on this flight 7 times and was getting tired of it. He complained about it too. He went back to Guatemala and the show was made such that I was supposed to see his house and father and kids and feel bad for him. I felt bad that he wasn't in a Mexican jail.

If you violate Mexican immigration rules you generally have two choices: 2 years in a Mexican Jail (can be argued that it is worse than a Thai jail. According to human rights groups you are essentially dead if you enter one). Or door number two: If you are caught on Mexico's southern border like our friend from Guatemala they often just shoot you.

Yes I am imbittered. I spent 9 months trying to get my Thai wife here legally and it cost me thousands of dollars. I was at the immigration office last week and it looks like we have months to go and at least $800 more to pay in fees to get her paperwork complete. Meanwhile outside the immigration office illegals were literally working in the businesses and walking down the streets on either side. I hate this, why wouldn't the Thais hate this too?

It is like watching all the NGO castrates prancing in the rallies against Thaskin. Most Thais I talke dto were infuriated to see those sniveling fops flaunting Thai law by doing this whether or not they liked Thaskin. We had the same problem here recently in the US and people went nuts. Only talking heads and the politicians thought it a good idea for our illegals to have nationwide rallies. However the general public was so enraged by this that our government was forced to round up a couple of thousand of these guys and send them back to get these folks to knock it off and get out of the spotlight.

Before you ask me how I could possibly be sure that these folks weren't illegals come to Northern Cailfornia. Most will happily tell you if asked and San Francisco and LA have illegally dubbed themselves; "Sanctuary Cities" meaning that they refuse to assist or enforce immigration laws. This is extremely frustrating when I had to shell out thousands and spank it alone in the dark waiting for almost a year for my wife to get here.

Thai visas of all kinds are ridicuously easy to get. Overstaying in most cases I think can be handled with a small fine if you haven't just been a raging ass about it too. Finally if you have a little cash in the bank or register a business you can secure a really long visa without a lot of trouble.

I hope to never have any trouble in this area but I find this story a little troubling it really seems like there has to be more to this deal.

Is there any reporting around who got his money in this case or something like that? Also did anyone in Thailand or Europe hate this guy?

Andy says:

Seems like a crap way to die just for a minor infringement. He must have really pissed somebody off to have been jailed for ten days. Could be a case of arrogant European blue blood meets arrogant jobsworth Immigration officer; and you know who will come off worse.
Given that the authorities here are corrupt, unco-ordinated, and randomly brutal, I wouldn't say that this is "karma" at all. - I wouldn't wish death in a Thai prison shithole on anyone

Mr Thaksin, bangkokchat.org says:

l knew a French guy in jail for 2 yrs without conviction, also dodgy travellers cheque's { pending of course} His family finally paid 30K pounds stirling and he was out the next day.
Pay the money fast { however how much} and l mean fast!!!!! In the long run it always works out a massive great deal.
You have to remember your dealing with 99% people in brown shirts with absolutely no morals and a rather sadistic kick at making farrangs squirm at the best of times.
My theory always been "small thai inferiorty complex"

Thako.

the dude says:

The cops in Thailand come from the lowest class in the country. They do a job that no one else wants to do, and do it poorly. Thats why they are paid less than a nana noodle soup seller. By hiring a bunch of low class folk with little to no education, the country attempts to get away with the illusion of having law enforcement.

philH says:

Like many I think there is more to this than meets the eye but I disagree with David's comparisons regarding the level of the crime. Essentially what he did was to alter (forge) an official travel document. Jesus H. Christ if he did that in Europe at the moment he'd be staring down the barrel of a gun! OK all it was down to is a change of visa date but, far from being "foolish", the whole issue screams European colonial era arrogance. "Oh, throw the fuzzy wuzzies a few coloured beads and they'll be happy". Did't it register when he entered LOS that the immigration officer keyed his details into a COMPUTER? Computer systems are remarkably adept at spotting numerical differences.

Anyhow, he didn't deserve to die for it but, surely to god, if he'd flashed a bit of cash and given a grovelling apology he could have walked away no sweat.

Just a sneaking thought though, I wonder what "spa and wellness centre" he visited? Ten days in clink despite diplomatic efforts does seem OTT for a minor offence like this.

Having said all that I found myself in a major sweat a few years back over a visa. After my contract finished and my work permit rescinded I stayed on for 18 months doing the ubiquotous visa runs. As these are a real balls ache I did a couple via the visa shops. No worries, that is until a certain Himbali was caught just after Whacko Thacko (the real one) claimed "There are no terrorists in Thailand". My last "visa run" before that included a very dodgy looking stamp from Myanmar. First run after that, out through Aranyaprathet, I was shitting myself in the queue. Could have bluddy cried when I got through. Paid the extortionate fee for the guy to get the Cambodian visa just so I could sit down with a cold beer(s) and try to stop shaking.

Rule #1 : Do NOT mess with anything to do with visas, immigration or any Thai authority.

Hugh Jarse says:

On the other hand, he could have bought a Thailand Elite Card and saved himself the trouble of departing from a 3rd world hellhole. Welcome to the land of slime.

Grunt says:

As far as concerns His Royal Highness, perhaps Kahlil Gibran said it best; "Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to the truth..."

The Thai authorities? Id imagine they would vary anywhere between blithe ambivalence to smirking satisfaction over this bizarre turn of events.

The powers that be in the LOS know they have something Western men crave and will scratch and claw to get at...seemingly over the corpses of our (nominal) peers!

Maybe nothing will come of this, aside from the wake-up call that some are merely tolerated, if not quite welcomed. Something I learned first hand in the Czech Republic and Ukraine.

All I can say is...Hit the wire, boys!

Steven says:

I notice that this story hasn't been written up in the Thai newspapers.

It's quite obvious why, the Thais hold in high regard - people of royal descendancy, or Hi-So - both Thai and foreign. This instance, is a complete shame upon Thailand.

I wonder how Thailand would react if one of it's Hi-So characters of royal descendancy, died in a foreign prison? Of course, there would be an uproar! Would make headlines in the Daily News and Thai Rath!

Andy says:

"I notice that this story hasn't been written up in the Thai newspapers"

Me too. Anything to do with royalty / scandal has them shitting their pants.

bangkokram says:

I was speaking to a Thai Immgration Lawyer today, he hadn't heard of this case.

He did say that a one day overstay would get you a very gentle slap on the wrist and a don't do it again speech. However, altering documents is taken very seriously and if you get the wrong Immigration official you will end up in real Shit!

Looks like HRH got the wrong official!

Derukugi says:

Andy:
[[[Seems like a crap way to die just for a minor infringement. He must have really pissed somebody off to have been jailed for ten days.]]]

Yes. German papers now report that witnesses report there was a long, very loud, shouting match before the boys in uniform took him away.
Clearly he made somebody angry to the point where it became personal.

Btw, I think "HRH" is overstated. The house of Hohenlohe is one of old German noble families, but I don`t think they ever supplied Royalty. Maybe people here think of "Hohenzollern"? Different family.
If you want to be polite, maybe "his Lordship" or the like?

stef says:

in 2003 i was in the Immigration Detention Centre where this guy probably died, but the belgian and uk embassies did a pretty good job at getting me out.

a german guy in there got out even quicker than me so i find it strange that he could not get out quicker.

IDC is a real shithole ... do not fuck with the immigration cops

Dicer says:

The story is fairly straightforward and heard countless times. More interesting, however, are the nuanced dots that help you link why things happen the way they do. This is yet another recent classic example of psychosis gone dangerously out of control. Whether you get BBQed by an ex-wife or get thumped to pulp my mutant inmates who are given the nod by their masters the 'connecting the dots' is not so much the actual story, but why people do not adjust to 'other realities' or rules, but instead bring with them their impermeable bubbles - hence the word "psychosis" - and continuously break rules, both subtle ones and clear-cut legal ones.

There are hints given to us from the moment we arrive at Don Muang to the moment we leave, signals flying left and right. If we come from a culture where most things are spelled out black and white to us, let's say the culture here by comparison is a subtle grey one which requires sensitivity over and above "staying legal". Sensitivity is required for your daily existence, tiptoping around that is, not just to be considerate to the locals, but to make it daily to bed unscathed. One fact that seems not so much as escape us as roundly ignored by us is that the very word "farang" means a barbarian, and what is a barbarian? Well, an outsider; the lowliest of low, gutter dwelling local has a better status than _any_ foriegner, which means the usual hierarchical rules dont apply for foreigners; the wais and piis and nongs and khuns go out the window or become merely transactional, even for blue blooded characters like this one. Status is not something fancy, but exercised in things like right to land, right to stay, and retribution for wrong done. A foreigner who is outside the system is a litterbin, a "thing" that you can dump on without the usual repurcussions. Even a local hooker who is an outsider in the so-called system can commit a serios crime against a farang and all probabilities considered the man would end up in trouble and she carries on as usual. It doesn't matter if the atrocity against a farang is extreme or not, that's just a matter of degrees.

Against any delusion to the contrary, the idea here is that as a foreigner you are catharsis-on-legs for the shop assitant who tries to cheat you, the hooker who may fight with you or the cop who rips you off...because you are outside the system _whatever you do_ With you these people wont run the risks they usually do from transgressing a local in a similar position or if they do they have the probabilities stacked up to their favour. Just like thick foriegners there are of course thick locals too who break the rules. Sure pick up any copy of a local tabloid and you see locals sorted and dumped in the klong or chopped up like zoo feed.

They tell us Thais have a smile for every situation. I would put it slightly differently, they have a look or an expression for every situation except it requires a certain amount of sensitivity to detect. To illustrate: there are countless restaurants and eateries who do not want any foriegners at all, they might serve you once (the presentational polite or even farang as amusement culture thing). The second time you show up they think what the f*** is he doing here, but would remain polite and on eventual trips they'll barely keep it together or sneer and make faces behind you. This sort of stuff is often in places where foriegners are not seen, far away from the nanas in bkk and out in the country. Once a friend I advised to avoid a particular breakfast place out in the Bang Kapi jungle collapsed right outside one day after a solitary grub in the same place. Luckily he was rushed to a nearby hospital. Later on he was informed that it was rat poison. Yes, rat poison! The only reading I took before was how time and again it was obvious we were not welcome; the subtle hostile gestures, the extreme delays in service even when there were no customers, and there we were not picking up the signals, none at all, like idiots. It clicked after many visits, an epiphany you can say, a moment of clarity. Now you cant give a memory for nuance to someone, so let me put it this way: embrace your paranoia, it will save your arse..... and the most amazing thing is 99% of the people who heard this story immediately say, "erm why didnt they just tell you to leave..this doesnt make sense." As a comparison let's say that in Soi Cowboy or Kao San they probably would tell you to leave if they dont want you there as they have had enough exposure to a range of foriegn behaviour and some enterprising Chinese bosses, for instance, have even come up with (esp in Soi Cowboy) signs which say "MEMBERS ONLY" to be flagged up if the wrong sort of person is about to enter. Simple, no random confrontation, which most locals hate anyway. Elsewhere they try their best to give you hints without being very rude to your face and might carry on tolerating you OR as in this particular case, some alienated twerp who gets paid 20 baht an hour and hates the place anyway will poison your boiled rice in his existential angst or perhaps simply to giggle while "the thick skinned farang" eats rat poison..... why not? He can take the insults and so why not try more! The other assumption that is a common rejoinder: "but surely they need your custom." The simple answer is no, Surely, they dont necessarily need it. That is called rationalisation or a whopping assumption. The assumption on their part is that you'll pick up on the sneering, the frozen grin, the cold treatment and when you dont pick up on it they up the ante. There are plenty of expressions about the "thick farang skin".

I use the poisoning example as it usually elicited extreme reactions from people. Think about it, there you are sitting in a bubble thinking, how lovely, smiling all the time and reality rudely barges in. The "bubble" esp the PC bubble is like "oh! them nice people smile all the time". Yeah sure they smile all the time and yeah sure they are unreal and the place is unreal too, and whaam baam you end up in situations, perhaps not in extreme ones where you might get BBQed or fed rat poison.

why is all this relevant?

It's not really about blame and counter-blame. These stories tell us how situations that could easily resolve themselves had the characters involved somehow employed a tad more sensitivity to and awareness of the realities of the place instead end up in the absurdly extreme. When US soldiers went back home from Vietnam they used to remark that it was "back to reality", meaning those other people, the small brown ones, the stifling heat, the incomprehensible language, the tight sweet tarts, the visual arrangement of the place, the madness of the war no less were all unreal. If you're from Minnesota or Milton Keynes, of course this place can seem "UNREAL". You'd have very few practical points of reference to operate on. The subtlety of Thailand, hoever, is that it is not one of those "us" and "them" cultures, say like Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia, which immediately shock you into adjusting your neural radar into seeing things for what they are. Once in bkk one can, of course, bumble along in whatever nutty bubble he/she wants to live in. I think at Don Muang they should have compulsary "psychosis lockers" where visitors would have to deposit their assumptions, denials and blinding prejudices before getting the disembarkation stamp and then keep their eyes peeled for the inedible or downright lethal morsels in the vagaries-wrapped-in-subtleties dish that is LOS.

SPQR says:

Yes this sounds more like what I guess I'd believe: he seems to have yelled at a Thai government worker with the power to make his life immeasurably difficult.

Just a quick note to anyone unfamiliar with the face and social status of public service workers in Thailand: Government service work is still a highly respected profession in Thailand and they expect you to know this (somehow).

-In Thailand public displays of displeasure and anger are extremely unwelcome and ill advised.-

While they aren't paid that well by our standards Thai government workers see themselves as quite happily positioned in the social pecking order of the Kingdom. Jerking them around is not at all a good idea, yelling at them in front of their peers, manager(s) and the public is just beyond my comprehension.

-Enraged Blue Blood caught lying on a form attempts to overwhelm local bureaucrat in front of armed guards-

Yikers

In the old days when this guy's world view and behavior set were formed you could often get away with this.

For example 1980's America was awash with talk shows and magazine primers on complaining to get your way or get a better deal.

Remember the problem airlines started to have with "air rage"? People were so accustomed to fit-throwing that they even started causing flight delays. Of course the events of the last 5 years have sort of solved that one for them.

Anyone who starts acting like our friend at the boarding gate or passport counter in the US will be going downtown possibly in a body bag (please note that I am not agreeing with this type of thing I am just reporting here), and you are likely looking at a $10,000 fine. Oh yes and he will go to immigration jail but he will get great medical care, access to lawyers, weekly phone calls, anal raping sessions and exposure to a myriad of diseases. Our corrupt legal system will dutifully make sure that after he's; punked, shanked, and beaten that he gets all cleaned up for his court appearances and trips to the doctor.

Had he tried his verbally combative antics on the plane with the onboard staff and he'd likely end up in the same jail after his flight was diverted, but not before any beefy gentlemen that he had terrified overhearing him on the flight had beaten him half to death with laptops and fire extinguishers...

philH says:

Bit by bit the story is emerging but he must have said something real super bad to get the treatment he got. To the point that diplomatic channels didn't work, that's the stunner!

A few years back a Thai colleague reluctantly taught me a phrase which he implored me to forget asap. Basically he said if I ever used it on a Thai I would likely be making intimate contact with a 9mm round soon thereafter. Forgetting it for me was easy, copious doses of the memory erasing fluid and it was gone. Plus I'm a coward!

Maybe Herr Christoph has a better memory or a less concerned teacher than me.

Bangkok Joe says:

The guy didn't die at the IDC (Immigration Detention center) which is on Soi Suan Plu. He died at the Remand Prison (on Ngamwongwan). This means that the police already referred his case to the Attorney General for Prosecution and to be officially charged in Court. That means the case was much more serious than a mere overstay and waiting for a plane ticket at the IDC and deportation. This guy was being prosecuted for forging a visa document.

Mick from Isle of Man says:

Christoph Von Fartenburg would have been facing 10-20 years hard time in the US for the same criminal act. Forging official documents is now considered a capital offense in virtually every country in the world, on par with murder, because it is equated with the war on terrorism.

Eniac says:

This might be the case on the remote and somewhat backward Isle of Man, Mick (together with thumping troubled teens with a big stick and chopping cats' tails off), but capital punishment is now banned in most civilised countries.

Interestingly, Nic Cage is playing the lead in an upcoming remake of The Wicker Man.

For a Manxman like yourself, it'll be like watching home movies.

Anonymous says:

well BANGKOK JOE,it had to be more than oversatying your visa but i knew that forging or altering your document in thailand amounts to be plain dishonest and from what i can gather that is worse than some other offences, ie it was still under your control, its a buddist thing you know etc etc... but even so a rich guy like that, and he still could'nt bribe anyone.....what is the world coming to.

ps. what did this guy actually die of...because if you do have that kind of money in thailand people usuallly keep you alive long enough to relive you of it.

mickyfin says:

Isle of man is totally right,you cant mess about these days,anyone should know that.
There is certainly some screwed up people on here though,ref:dicer aug 15th.
Im married to my thai wife,she is great,her family is great,we have friends,who i have known for 15 years who are bangkok policemen,have been for the last 10 years,they are really nice people.
It all depends on the cicle of friends,etc you keep,you can get in trouble in any country in the world if your up to no good,all be it that the penaltys are harder in thailand.

Doctor Bob Rix says:

Eniac, I loathe ad homini. I was enjoying this read until Eniac lowered herself to that level.

That out of the way, if his lordship mouthed-off at a Thai that was his big mistake. I did it once and ironically, I can almost see my rage of that day in the photo of the face this arrogant nobleman. In my case I flew off the handle big time and all but the one Thai, which was bearing the brunt of my bad hair day, ran from the office. I thumped the desk so hard in anger that it split. The Thai guy stood motionless with a look of sheer hatred in his eyes that said, “One day I will kill you for doing this to me in front of my colleagues”. He was powerless to do so and never got the chance but no doubt the immigration officer was in a different boat and got his pound of flesh for Mr von Hohenlohe’s arrogant outburst. I would say no amount of baht in whichever pocket could have compensated for the immigration officer’s boiled-up hate-wish and hence the diplomatic route that should have worked easily for a guy of this level, didn’t cut cloth.

Eniac says:

Don't waste your sympathy on those who mock the dead, Doctor Bob.

Andy says:

A simple flogging and confined to quarters and half-rations - ship's biscuits would have taught the varlot!

Derukugi says:

I live in Japan and even here, where things are done (supposedly) by the book, the same applies.
If he had apologized immediately and profusely, he would have had a chance of getting away as a stupid falang.

But pissing off an immigration official while clearly being legally in the wrong would clearly have meant trouble for him here too. And yes, in Japan people die in detention, too.

wulfman says:

Who says "farang" means barbarian.What an animostic tirade that guy made!
I believe it means Frenchie (France is Farangset")or similar, as they were the first Europeans to deal with Siam.
The truthis that if this guy really did make a scene at the airport, after forging his visa, and he was a diabetic without his medicine it all adds up now.

Bob says:

Yes, as Bangkok joe wrote, this man had the misfortune to die at the Bangkok Remand Prison on Ngamwongwan Road and NOT the IDC on Suan Phlu. (I know as I visited there last week). If you have have visited there, you will understand from the prisoners that this is not a nice place to be and is also overcrowded. Having not yet been sentenced, he would have been in Building One which is where people are held until they are sentenced. As such, it is well known for being overcrowded... (It has been reported there were only 40 people in this Building... hard to believe!). However, I cannot understand why bail was twice denied... Was the Swiss Embassy not involved in assisting him? My condolences to his family and his poor mother, who, (from newspaper accounts), only had the opportunity to visit him once.

mickyfin says:

As far as i know,the meaning of farang is the french theory,well done,it does not mean barbarian.

Dicer says:

well some history lesson for the duckers and divers.....

Farang sure derives from the name of a Germanic people... the ethnonym was passed on to Arabic ifranji , Ethiopic faranj, whence it spead eastwards... in Sanskrit it is phiranga and in Kurdish and Malay is farangi , in Dhivehi faranjee and Khmer barang and farangi in Persian. The actual reference is not necessarily to Franks or Francia, in modern-day France, the Low Countries, Rhineland and Hess..... For people of the Eastern Roman Empire i.e. present day Istanbul the word gained currency when Charlemagne, a member of the Franks, originally a pagan, barbarian, Germanic people was annointed Holy Roman Emperor by the Pope in 8th AD.... the word became synonymous with an uncouth barbarian who has taken over the capital of civilisation and the word gained further ground during the crusades, at first led mostly by nobles from northern France who claimed descent from Charlemagne. enough history stuff here....

of course Asians and esp Thais do not distinguish between parts of Europe, but suffice to say that the usage got expanded in time....and the next time someone calls you farang, pop that denial...it is not a term of affection, in fact it is a pejorative term for an outsider ... ever heard of the farang kii nok expression...or how about farang hia... and I mean the lizard type!

Thaihome says:

Dicer,
I love your line:
“…but why people do not adjust to 'other realities' or rules, but instead bring with them their impermeable bubbles…”

But then you ruin with another severe case of Farang paranoia. People don't rip you off because you are a farang, they do it because they can and you put yourself in the position of letting them. They do the exact same thing to Thais.

Thais walk a daily tightrope of survival and tension, I would have thought from your line above that would understand that it is just different here (and just about everywhere you are not from).

You started out great, but it turned out hugely disappointing.
TH

daniel says:

ok! FARANG means..........

{white skinned foriegner}

as for indian's im not sure but i was told that african's are called

{dumdum's}

quite possibly this could the slang term but i know i would rather be called a FARANG as opposed to a DUMDUM anyday of the week.

ps. what is the term for oriental people because the thai's dont actually class them as white, but yellow, ive heard the word nippon but that is the name of japan in thai........

anybody out there got any anwsers?

Dicer says:

Thaihome,

Thanks for the comment.....as I said I chose the "paranoid case" as it illustrates perfectly the gulf that exists between the local and the outsider..... and my reason for elaborating on the word farang is not merely academic or some ethymology tossing game, but to point out the heart of the matter....which is this:

as a foreigner you are an outsider and locals are acutely aware of that.... your foriegn-ness is difference enough and hence local differences of class and caste dont apply to you. This leaves you outside the system. You can be here for 50 years and that will not change. As an outsider you dont have any status at all and automatically it means you become game, always open season too. It is difficult for a lot of foreigners to acknowledge this fact.

The above however does not necessarily mean that they get only you...within Thai society there are people of status and there are drop outs, local aliens if you like..... and there is always a price... one amongst many reasons why foreign criminals do exceptionally well here...you can checkmate locals in the daily game but that wont make you rise up or down in their esteem or in respectablility, it only means you've become adept at playing the culture game.... and of course foreigners with lots of dough to spare create a buffer zone for themselves from the vagaries of Thai culture by hiring Thais to do the work so they have their own cosy bubbles to dwell into in their moo baans with local help hovering about the house..... there is always a quid pro quo tarriff, think of it as a tax, either you get ripped off or you hire local help to navigate for you.... or you invest enough time to learn the language and custom to attempt navigation yourself, this last one is always tricky but can be done...

a very simple illustration would help re farang as fodder hypotheses. I know a local chap who dabbles in drugs. He gets clamped by the cops and the deal is ( and there always is a deal here) 15,000 baht for his release so he says to the seargeant responsible that he knows a foreigner in his apartment who occasionally smokes with him, has enough money for the seargeant's evening entertainment and he hands over the name, address and time they would catch the farang on the act and on the appointed time the cops knock the door and find a stash of weed in the apartment and druggie 1 is released. It is now time to make yet another deal with druggie 2, the farang. The foreigner, being savvy enough to think of contingencies had enough cash about the place to close the deal immidiately ... the example may seem apocryphal but the import is real: as a foreigner you do become the butt end of a deal, or simply catharsis for the downtrodden.... I'm picking illustrations here at random but hope you get my drift. And once you know your place in a society like this you can proceed to play with caution, but as David's recent examples show if you go about violating rules then it leads to your eventual demise.

philH says:

No, the Thai for Japan is yipun (not sure about the phonetic spelling) other than that I've no idea.

Would be interesting to know if the Thais have any names for other S. E. Asian peoples.

Andy says:

Good post Dicer. Difficult to argue with any of that.

Re; philH's question. I've heard the term "jek" banded around to describe a Chinese person. Don't know if this polite or not?

Old favourite; "gao-lee" for Korean people. Usually ends up as "goa-hee" for comedy effect.

Dick Rengade says:

So Dicer,

Where could a Farang go to score some weed in BKK?

mark lamai says:

this is a mysterious story.
only know what i read in the newspapers.
but it seems the relatives made repeated attempts to bail him out, offering large sums of money.
my experience in the Lumphini cells was that the police can set any figure they like for bail, there is no stipulated amount for a certain crime.
so it makes me wonder..
if the boys in brown knew he was a wealthy man, they may simply have been hanging out for an a mount much larger than what was being offered.
how it works in the remand prison i don't know, but after Lumphini i had to bribe my way out of Immigration dtention centre (fairly small amounts for drunk driving).
still have to face court etc. cause they hold your passport.
but it does seem that if you pay what they want, maybe some negotiation, you at least will be out for legal advice and medical care.
so to me it sounds like it was a case of foreigners being ill-advised about how to do it in Thailand.
a tragic mistake.

Chris the swede says:

Meaning of Farang..

In the niddle of the 19th century during the reign of King Mongkut Rama IV it was decided that Siam would end it's isolasionist policy towards the outer world..It was a decision supposedly made because the king understood that it was the only way to avoid being colonised, by engaging in economic and diplomatic activities with the european powers. The first to arrive in Siam as traders were the Portugese by the way, in the 16th century, while yuttaya was still capital. After 200 years of blooming trade and economic development a new mindset came to dominate, one of fear and misstrust. Hence the disastrous period of isolation that led to the Burmese finally being able to destroy Ayuttaya 1767 because Siam had started to rot from within because of lack of trade and influx of foreign ideas..

The first to arrive after Siam changed it's policy was the french...France in thai is still today "FARANGset". Farang meant frenchman in thai! However, later lots of other representatives from various european powers arrived, leading to the word FARANG to mean WHITE EUROPEAN! Nowadays it means WHITE PERSON OF EUROPEAN DESCENT! So, that includes all Australians and New Zeelanders and what have you...This is proved by old scripts and text from the Ayuttaya period, so al this talk about some Ethiopian word being the source of the word FARANG and "spreading" eastwards is of course totally wrong.

Do you think people in thailand actually call the nation of France "Barbarianland" if we were to translate the word "Farangset" literally? You have to be joking...

Chris the swede

Duke says:

Very very sad indeed. A series of unfortunate incidences, which led to a human being dying while in the care of others, who took on the responsibility of such care by the decision and act of incarcerating him. How frustrating for the family members to accept the needless death of this person. My condolences to his family

Dimmi says:

I am very saddened to see that everyone here believes 100% the allegation (from bribe-a-minute 3rd world police scam artists) that the man in question did forge or alter his VISA whatever.

Maybe he did and maybe he didn't.
If you decide to victimize somebody for whatever reason the first thing you have to do make up something and accuse him. (or after you shot him in the head seven times or whatever)
We won't ever have to hear his side of the story we just assume he was a rich arrogant European and so happy day he's dead!

What a sad lot we've become, we immedietly don't take our own side.

+ If a diabetic is away from his blood sugar monitoring he's in danger zone potentially near death.

+ If I had any money at all you'd never catch me in SEAsia. I'd be in a villa in France with Security and Doctors surounding me. (and European ladies of royal bloodline)

Billy Boy says:

The "slag" term in Thai for a Jap is "Aye Pung" the "slag" term for someone from China is "Aye Check"... and the slag term for a Thai is "Pe Thai"

JAMES says:

I have a home in Thailand and have the required visa and Thai ID. I have never had a problem with the police or officals. I treat people with respect and in return have always been treated very politely.
Sometimes, I have used the term Farang kii nok, when I see unwashed Euro Trash acting in a rude and arrogant manner. I normally avoid the areas with crowds of Farangs and prefer to associate with the local Thias.
It is unfortunate this incident happend and I hope the full story becomes known. JC

Pants Elk says:

Dicer, I just copied your August 15 comment onto my hard drive. Very perceptive, very interesting, very nicely written, and I'm resurrecting this thread (briefly, unnoticeably) because I'm tired as hell of the Stickman/Galt circling-the-drain thread. There's much better stuff to talk about here.

Rest in Peace, Kiko says:

I met Kiko (Christoph's nickname) at a wedding a few years ago (2005), and he was a very polite, outgoing, funny, overweight gentleman with a blonde (tinted) ponytail and a bit of a Teutonic accent. He appeared to sweat profusely, even when I was talking to him, so he must have had medical difficulties from being overweight. We had a brief conversation, and exchanged phone numbers, since we both travelled a lot and spoke of Hawaii, Mexico and Switzerland.

I regret now that when Kiko called me a few months later (in 2005) about going with a few friends on a Mexico trip (he wanted to get a group of friends together to go to Mexico during holidays, probably to share a small beach house), I declined. I did not know him well, but he seemed to be without any "airs" and not pretentious at all. Very witty and charming, intelligent, and not arrogant like one would presume a Prince to be.

At the most he (or his mother the Princess Ira Von Fürstenberg) should have paid a large fine. After I heard of his death, it has made me reconsider all my exotic travel, although I would not falsify information on a passport; I take immigration most seriously.

Rest in Peace Kiko. You did not deserve this. I hope at least his passing was quick and not painful.

AngloTeuton says:

What a tragedy!
It seemes everything went bad for this man, and not even international celebrity Ira von Fuerstenberg, his mother, could not drum him out. Surely she must have had connerctions to the Royal Household, or not.

When thing like this comes up I tell my Thai friends what my history professor always told me: every people get the system they deserve. (For not standing up for their own and others' human rights.)

In the LOS this case was thouroughly swept under the rug. Only fora like this one reported on it. I had to learn about it from my family in Germany who want me to come home now.

Hope this will change for the better sometime. But I have my doubts...

Angry Spaghettoni says:

The Italian embassy is a crap fucking shit. They leave people in jail without even going to visit them, while in Italian news they write that they are doing the best. I followed a story of a guy nowadays in Chiang Rai detained for eroin dealing. Only thanks to a German and a Italian friends he survived until now. After thousand of calls in the embassy nobody showed up (not even the Consoul in Chiang Mai, that is thai).
However the Italian magazines underlined how hard and constant is the Italian embassy working.

Ex-Buriramer says:

The term "cek" for Chinese is not polite. It's one of the terms that the Thai use to talk about people behind their back. If they did use it face to face, it would be used as an insult. I once saw two women fighting on Soi Sukhumvit. They came to blows once the one called the other a "sao cek."

Indians are included in the term "kaek." Kaek is a vague catchall for Moslem southerners,
Malaysians, Arabs, etc. I guess they are generalising that anyone from a culture where at least some people wear a turban is a kaek. I was told by Thais not to use the word in the hearing of Moslem southerners since they understand what it means. When I did see Thai use the word "kaek" around Indians it was used with contempt. These particular Indians had low-caste jobs such as butcher and barber in the green market, and I don't think they were prepared to talk back.

Road Natzi says:

I imagine his final days would have been very unpleasant, left to die on the prison cell floor in foul heat with no water or medical care, various cell mates eyeing off his clothing and or warm internal crevises. ewww, lets just leave that at that shall we.

Ian says:

Dicer, I got poisoned on Koh Pang Gan. They owners were so annoyed that I reported that my travellers cheques and all my belongings were stolen. They murmured something about somebody who was going to be murdered. Luckily I was only 20 years old and survived the poisoning. I felt my life fading away. They were angry with me because they said that they would have to pay the Police a commission on the stolen items. You are extremely perceptive. I feel sorry for that clueless guy married to the Thai girl. Thai people can view us a bit like the muslims view the infidels. Our lives are worth nothing because we are outsiders. Life is cheap in Thailand, Cambodia and Vietnam. Avoid conflict or you could be coming home in a body bag. Those smiles are often hiding murderous intentions. I have no doubt that the Immigration officer arranged for the royal farang to be murdered for the dishonour he caused.

Old Hand... says:

I have just, for the THIRD time in a row, overstayed well over 2 years. i.e. a total 6 years in Thailand on 3 one month visas.

I don't condone it, and don't advise it unless you have ice cold water running in your veins.

So. Guess what happened on my third "offence".

Given my almost 3 years overstay this time, I had never left via the new airport and was concerned the Don Muang Immigration "I'll go straight to the little overstay room" procedure might have changed into something more.... formal. Less conducive for a nice little chat.

In fact, the last time, (the second in a row then) out of Don Muang, the immigration lady was not a happy camper and having got out her calculator tried to indicate that 800 days times 200 Baht was A LOT OF MONEY. With a very straight and serious face.

I countered with a quizzical smile and proceeded to count out the 20,000 baht one note at a time like this, "10,000 baht, 20,000 baht, Sam Meun, See Meun... etc. Which made the other boys laugh... and having trumped her little joke, off I went.

This last (almost 3 year) overstay had freaked me out though. I'd had a run in with the guard in my apartment a week before who had tried to bait me into a fight and threatened to call the cops.... don't ask why... but suffice it to say he "won" the argument and I immediately backed down. No choice....

What's more, I'd read about the increase to 500 Baht a day but didn't TRUST the blogs/etc. which said the maximum was still 20,000 Baht. It seemed logical the max might have risen as well. And 50,000 Baht or more would have severely cramped my finances. Though I had about 80K baht on me.

So. Arriving at the immigration I walked up to the counter hopefully, gave the lad a nice Wai!, and said I was sorry I'd overstayed and asked where I should go pay.

Give me your passport he said..... looked at it... eyebrows raised, eyebrows raised even more... flicking through the pages etc. and called a girl over from a nearby desk behind him.

So I started telling him my hardluck story... and fairly quickly I realised he was cool. Or so I thought.

Ah ha he said... so you are really Thai people staying so long in Thailand like this!

Yes I agreed!, I suppose I am.

But you never know, all this nice chit chat might have still led to a nasty "gotta follow da rulez" conclusion. Still no 20K max confirmation as I chatted away gamely!

Go with this lady he instructed me... who led me to a desk with an older lady parked on her ample uniformed butt behind it.

Who got out the dreaded calculator and started bashing away and totted up (I am not making this up.... 961 days!)

Still no confirmation of the total as I handed over my 20K baht which she counted with a flourish and a smile.

Phew! I'm free..... months of suppressed tension released in a moment.

I remained to have a nice chat with her and concluded our business by asking her to speak to my wife (on the phone) who was partially responsible for this situation, and after I told wifey I had a Big Problem at the airport, and was going to prison for three months, got the immigration lady to back up the ruse.

The wife had kittens until I let her off the hook of this "joke", and got quite angry for having given her such a scare.

Moral of da story? Be cool, smile, make jokes, and do all the above in Thai. And remember to WAI them at the appropriate junctures. They seem to like that.

I speak fluent(ish) Thai.

Sitting here in London counting my blessings.

One more thing.... I got busted 20 years ago in Pattaya for having a little bag of ganga. The little rent-a-bitch had set me up. It cost me 100 Bucks back then. Down from 500 first opening bid from the copz. I got to keep the weed for that, too...!

And yes, I have other true tales of stupidity in Thailand and elsewhere, to relate as well. But you'll have to wait for my memoirs of 25 years in Asia for those little stories. Coming to an AsiaBookz near you. In about 5 years time... when I've written it!