Is your Thai sweetheart really a conwoman?

Peter J Mathias says:

Is this always the case, are; they all fucking con artists, yea yea I know, this is 99.95 certain to be true...

mike roberts says:

Not just Thailand old son, the Philippines I think invented the scams above when the yanks were there, the Thai girls have merley perfected them

wina.. :) says:

Wow....It?s nice to hear some opinion about Thai girls...I?m the one also.

I could give you some idea...when you would like to have (really) nice girl...looking for girl in the collage or University...Look for urban girl..with education.
How?...
Being Volunteer, teacher or ...about education..there ..you get more chance!!...

ps...I still have one nice single friend...living(+working in Ireland).

bob says:

Some thai girls like to have sex for free. Usually you have to be young and handsome, though. I wasn't but some seem to like it anyway.
And most of the ones who marry and move abroad seem to be ok.
Considering which assholes most men who go to LOS are it's no wonder they get ripped off.
If you want to be happy for the rest of your life, get an ugly gilr to mary you...

RenÈ says:

yes indeed, it is nice to hear some opinion about Thai girls...I?m the one also.
I¥m agree with BOB: Some thai girls like to have sex for free. Usually you have to be young and handsome, is correct. I¥m happy born as a handsome men, i¥m 33, not mary and have no children. Maybe what I¥m doing is wrong, but I don¥t like to break hearts. My opinion is: you are responsible of your own life, if you are ugly and marry a beautiful thai angel, you can get be fucket up. Life is hard, but for those girls more than you. Those girls have nothing to lose, you are: your face and money.
At the end you get a wife of your own color. So I think it¥s just a game, but beware of your healt and the poor girls heart, they are humen too you know. Many men talk bad about thai girls, just look at yourselfe. I must also become a bether men then what I am now. For example, sometimes they like me and wan to stay with me. They even buy me drinks of the money they get every month from there world wide boyfriends.
Good luck and think with your brain.

David T says:

I agree with alot of the comments made about Thai girls and how you should be wary, however my story is turning out nicely.
I am 29 now and used to live in Bangkok 3 years ago and had the usual merry go round of meeting women that were not suited to me or had false intentions, however I met a girl 2 years my elder 2 weeks before I left for England (In Lucifer Disco) who I quite liked but didn't trust at the time.
Back in England I kept in touch with her and came back to visit her in Thailand twice in a year. She eventually came over to England and we are now happily married and both working in England. She had preveously studied English here and in America so her understanding of Western life is better than the average Thai which is a massive help. I have visited her family in Lampang recently as we had a Thai wedding ceremony there to respect them.
My wife has always said she wanted to work in England and not rely on me. She now works for a big company here and we share and pay everything half and half.
It has helped us greatly that my wife has a reasonable understanding of western culture (having studied abroad) and this is something that most Thai's do not have the opportunity or willing to do.
It also has alot to do with her attitude and approach to give and take, not take, take, take.
Its worked out well for me so far so I don't see why it can't work out for other people.....

Cheers
David

sunglasses ron says:

pufftas

your lot aren't real men

i remmeber teh west brom changing room in teh 0's, big cyrille wandering about with his old fella out, magnificent sight........

you lot would put a frock on him and get him to suck you off before giving him a ham shandy

get off teh internet and play sports, get it out of your system, you blouses

go one, out

have it

Chopper Harris says:

Nice one Ron

I remember playin in the FA cup back in the 60's. Took a right pastin of this geezer who played for The Arsenal - can't remember is name - ginger cunt with long sidies and his shorts up the crack of his arse. Anyway, the spongeman comes on to sort me out. Took a two footer on the back of the left Jake. I gets up, takes the bucket of water off the spongeman and chases the ging all over the pitch. Drowns the cunt. The crowd laughed, the players laughed, even the ginger cunt laughed. I had the last laugh though. Fourteen stitches and I gets up at the back stick in the last few minutes to pop in the winner. Blew the win bonus on a slapper down Bayswater and a ruby. Happy days.

Water festivals. I've shit em.

Tim H says:

"Each year, thousands of western men marry a Thai girl only to discover that she is a con-woman. "

Thousands? Are you sure? You have some proof of this rather amazing statistic put forth as if it is fact?

[Because every single one of them has posted his story to Stickman's website - David]

... says:

Yeah..this is cool and so true man.. nearly all girls in our school fits the describtion above...and thank god..i don't have girlfriend from our school^^

never touch girls in Bangkok, 99% prositude...one of my friend gave me the same advise also ^^

Blick says:

Western women do not find financial success attractive? I beg to differ..............Thai women just ask for alot LESS and they know they are not worth a penny more.

buzzballs ryan says:

hey u guys if u want love in thailand buy a fucking dog and remember a wank is money in the bank

Billy says:

Unless you find a well educated Thai girl who can converse in English, you are wasting your time looking for a long time relationship in Thailand.

It's a bar girl's job to lie and cheat, just remember that.

One exception, find a girl who has just started in the bar (for the first time, and get her away from the influence of her peers), you might be lucky.

usvirgin says:

Billy,

Don't forget, you'll still have to deal with the influence of her family.

John U says:

Chopper,

How did I miss your comment? I don't know.

I was incommunicado for a while, but I've just read it today.

I thought it was reallly funny. I love a fucking good laugh and yours was good. (sorry Stephanie it's only my opinion but I really enjoyed it)

Bangkocked Bob says:

This is absolutely consistent with my personal experience. I lived in BKK for 2 years and got to know my wife's friends from the bar. As they came to trust me, they shared their stories/tactics/cons/wins etc with me -- usually with a hearty laugh about how stupid the Farangs are. If anything, your article understates the case.

This is God's truth: one night I helped one of my wife's friends send emails to FIVE different foreign guys who were each sending her money every month via Western Union. Every email ended with something like "I miss you so much and think about you every day. Please take care of yourself and come to see me again soon."

On the other hand, beneath it all they are just people who are doing what they [think] they need to survive and help their families. People born poor in Thailand have very little chance to change that. Who can blame them?

I still love to visit Thailand and I think the girls are fabulous and lots of fun to be with. But at the end of the week, I am out of there and I force myself to forget about the sweet thing I am leaving behind. After all, it will only be a matter of hours and she will be in someone else's arms.

Best of luck to all.

TANAI KWAI says:

Bangkocked Bob writes:

"...I force myself to forget about the sweet thing I am leaving behind. After all, it will only be a matter of hours and she will be in someone else's arms."

A wise man once told me that in Thailand, "You never lose your girl, you only lose your turn."

When I first heard it I cringed. Now I laugh. (But it makes me cringe that I laugh.)

This same wise man noted that if you tell someone in America you've been with a thousand girls they would label you a depraved pervert... In Thailand they might ask if you are a homosexual.

Mom would be proud.

(anyway)

Prorogue says:

Very funny Tanai Kwai. Very funny and very true.

WILLIAM says:

CON-WOMEN??? I MARRIED MY THAI SWEETHARTR 8 YEARS
AGO, THINGS WERE GREAT UNTIL SHE GOT "AMERICANIZED"
, SHE HAS CONED ME INTO MANY THINGS(I COULD WRITE A BOOK)..AND NOW SHE
HAS NO TIME FOR ME, SHE HAS A GREEN CARD,
A BUSINESS, I BOUGHT FOR HER, NOW!! I GET NOTHING,
BEWARE OF THE LONG TERM CON!!! SHE USE TO NEVER LET ME OUT
OF HER SIGHT!!! NOW I NEVER SEE HER!!!!
DON'T MISSUNDERSTAND ME, I STILL LOVE THAI WOMEN
AND IF I HAD IT TO DO OVER AGAIN?? I'ED BE MORE
CAREFUL THEY ALL ARN'T GOLD DIGGERS
SIGNED: HOME ALONE

Dinos says:

William is right on, "BEWARE OF THE LONG TERM CON" ... have seen it so many times. As soon as the green card is permanent the devotion is gone. Then they play the game of getting you mad enough to divorce them (unlikely they will start the proceedings.)

Rick says:

I met a Thai hooker in a hotel in Bahrain. She is 30 and other hookers here say they should start thinking about a husband. She is a great cook and loves to be in the kitchen and loves cooking Thai Food. She loves to see the satisfaction on her friends faces and mine as well when she serves up a great Thai dish or barbecue. The other girls say open a restaurant for her and would do it as long as it is done in Thailand in a Thai Ltd. Partnership with a lawyer. Still, I'm not sure I would have any recourse. I worry more about the law than the girl actually. Yeah, her parents are from Isaan and they are poor but the two younger sisters living in Bangkok are self sufficient; working honestly but school fees paid to the youngest by my flame, the oldest. Any suggestions out there? I was thinking of leaving my job in Bahrain and take her with me to open a restaurant. Really, this girl can cook and often suggests I open a restaurant. I cant' understand why she hasn't done it before. Any suggestions/advice would be welcome.

TANAI KWAI says:

Rick,

If you can afford to leave your job in Bahrain with enough in the bank to be able effectively to retire -- and then some -- Thailand seems like a lovely place to do so. But if you have any expectation of earning a living from this venture I would suggest studying the business and legal landscape carefully before proceeding. Worst case, the enterprise could bleed money and even be wrested from your control. Needless to say, stumbling upon the wrong Thai attorney in the course of protecting your interests could be disastrous.

If, however, this is an adventure you can afford and you enjoy food service, Thai cuisine and working with the public it sounds like it could be great fun. Partnering in some way with a Thai national as you plan to do is all but indispensable, despite the risks you foresee.

But as a general matter these things are fraught with extreme peril and modest success rates. Even old hands get themselves pretty well screwed on a lot of these deals.

Hope this general advice helps orient you. Before doing anything I would befriend someone with extensive knowledge of doing business in the country. It would not be unreasonable, for example, to offer a bottle of wine or a meal as a small token of appreciation to a seasoned expat in the hope of receiving some solid counsel.

All the best.

T.K.

STFU says:

More shite from TK, the shitemaster. The "old hands" and "seasoned expats" are some of the biggest piece o' shite losers around!

TANAI KWAI says:

STFU:

Hello Jackass!

Jesus, can't anybody on this site find the balls to post under the same name (at least occasionally?).

Here is someone, Rick -- one of the few inoffensive, reasonable people who visit this site -- who politely requests a bit of advice. I do my best to help and you projectile-shit the following:

"The "old hands" and "seasoned expats" are some of the biggest piece o' shite losers around!"

My God, what a useless, insipid comment... Just another piece of cyber-trash with nothing to contribute.

Divining what these people mean by their comments is like picking at clumps of stool. Best guess: some kind of slam against people with gray hair. It may surprise you, fucky, that I am probably younger than you.

Love to know what kind of "winner" given you are so quick to point out the "losers." Top o' the class, were you?

BWWAHAHAHA!

(winky)

WILLIAM says:

RICK, I'AM A SOME WHAT SEASONED EXPAT...
BUT STILL DO MY SUMMERS IN AMERICA (ALASKA)
TO OPEN A THAI FOOD RESTAURANT IN THAILAND WITH YOUR GIRL FRIEND,
TO ME, IS RISKY AT BEST ,HOW WELL CAN YOU KNOW HER?
I TOO THINK IT WILL BLEED YOUR BANK ACCOUNT, EVEN IF IT'S A SUCCESS?
IT WILL BE 'HER' BUSINESS,(AND THE FAMILY) IF ONE OPENS A RESTAURANT
EXECPT TO BE THERE EVERY DAY AND NIGHT, FOR YOU'LL HAVE TO KEEP YOUR
EYE ON EVERYONE!!! RIP OFFS ARE NOT RARE WITH EMPLOYEES AND FRIENDS. A FRIEND
OF MINE OPENED A BUSINESS WITH A THAI GIRL FRIEND IN CHIANG
MAI, (THEY ARE NOT TOGETHER ANYMORE), BUT HE TOLD ME THAT EVERY
GIRL THAT WORKED FOR HIM STOLD FROM HIM!!! ,
EVEN THE ONES HE WAS SLEEPING WITH!!ANOTHER FRIEND OF MINE, WITH A THAI WIFE
DID OPEN A THAI RESTAURANT, IN THE STATES, IT COST HIM A BUNDLE!!!
AFTER A YEAR, THERE WAS LITTLE PROFIT, MOST WENT TO OVERHEAD,
IN THAILAND I'AM SURE IT WOULD BE THE SAME, BUT IN BAHT?? ANYHOW MY FRIENDS
GOT LUCKY, IT WAS HIS WIFES DREAM TO OPEN A THAI RESTAURANT!! BUT
AFTER A LONG BUSY YEAR THEY SOLD OUT, VERY LUCKY!!!!, BUT THEY
WALKED AWAY AND SAID "NEVER AGAIN" !!!!!! DON'T MEAN TO BE NEGATIVE,
IT COULD BE FUN!! BUT REMEMBER IT'S HER BUSINESS, AND
YOUR A FARRONG WITH MONEY, AND SOME THAI LADIES, SEEM TO
THINK OUR BANK ACCOUNTS ARE BOTTOMLESS!!?? ALSO DON'T GET ME WRONG?
IT COULD BE FUN!! WITH THE RIGHT LADY??? BUT I WOULDN'T JUMP INTO ANYTHING??
WITHOUT SPENDING LOTS OF TIME WITH THE LADY FIRST AND "REALLY" GET
TO KNOW HER AND HER ATTENTIONS.....YOUR A FARRONG
AND YOU ALWAYS WILL BE, AND YOU GOT DOLLARS!!!!HAVE YA READ THE
BOOK "NO MONEY, NO HONEY""??
I WISH YA LUCK, AND IF YOU DO OPEN A RESTAURANT, I
WANT T COME SEE????

Khun stupid says:

I met a Thai hooker

Rick this should be enough reason NOT to put any money in this. Also look CLOSE at Thai business Law before you jump. You will find it heavily favors the Thai partner giving them controlling interest (51%)There has been many Farangs taken to the cleaners in business partnerships with the Thai's so one must be very careful when dealing with them.

Ted Hughes says:

A good looking woman from Issan
Had her eyes on a thirty grand Nissan
To assemble the cash
She sold plenty of gash
And now she she's got a four wheel drive offroader (automatic), with air con, leather upholstery and a six cd inter-changer.

What a fine example of Thai enterprise culture.

TANAI KWAI says:

Not just "Thai enterprise culture" by any means.

The BMW's and Porsche's parked in front of the ritzier strip clubs in America frequently belong to the dancers -- many of whom hail from the humblest corners of the nation.

(winky)

Rick says:

Thanks to all for their advice and suggestions. I thought as an American under a certain Friendship Act during the Viet Nam era allowed Ameicans to have "power of the purse?" Maybe that treaty has fallen by the wayside. No doubt this girl is a gold digger and wouldn't hesitate to move on to the next guy if all fails. I do have recipes but location, location, location is key. I know Di-Steffano's, an Italian Restaurant in Chiang Mai, is still running and he opened a second branch there. His food is good. He has a great location near Thapae Gate. No, I haven't made any committment yet but have some experience with Chiang Mai as a former teacher there in the 80's. I don't trust Thais in general; except Doctors. I've never engaged a prostitute beyond service rendered-payment given and will not jump into anything impulsively. She gorgeous and has four family members that will always come before me. I told her I was going to Thailand this July and she wants me to meet the youngest sister, but wanted to know how much money I would pay the youngest sister to have her meet me at the airport upon arrival. I said nothing but lunch and money for geting the morning off; a few baht. Big sister said 10,000 Baht and I said let me ask her how much when I get there. And big sister said, " little sister will call me and tell me how much you gave her. I think it looks as if the restaurant idea is going to fade out and see the vacuum salesmanship setting in already. They just don't stop, do they?

hedro says:

Rick,
The Treaty of Amity and Friendship is still in force, however I dont know if it will be around for much longer. There are higher registration costs for this type of company but you as an American can own more than 50%

Rick says:

Hey Hedro: Can you tell me anything more about the Amity and Friendship Treaty and how much more than 50% can I own ie 100%? Thanks for the info. Rick

Bai-Bua says:

I don't know what con-women means hornestly.
But I do not understand why many farangs always end up with bar-girls?? Then those farangs complain Thai girls are cheating and sucking money :(
Thai people don't like girls working in bar. well, Thai bars are completely different than the Western's ones. If you say you are going to a bar, you are doing a bad thing since being a bar girl is a very low job in Thai society.

If you want a nice girl, do not find it at any bar.

TANAI KWAI says:

Bai-Bua,

Assume you are Thai -- glad to have your perspective here.

My opinion here is a bit different. Thai women end up in the bars for a wide variety of reasons. They are not all cut from the same cloth. Some are nice, some are not nice. Jai this, jai that -- just like civilians, in my experience. On the other hand, one shouldn't exactly be surprised if a bar girl turns out to be a con-artist (the word "con" generally refers to a scam or fraud of some kind; it also can be an abbreviated form of the word "convict").

I used to be queasy about ladies with a past to rival my own but no longer. Nor would I be inclined to look down on someone because their own society looks down upon them. There are obvious differences in people (in education, wealth, etc.) but I have trouble with defining entire groups of society as "low." Not to speak of the hipocrisy of those who think themselves "high" but who cavort with working girls. I think that's something of a cultural pathology that most countries share.

(TIT)

MILES says:

I recently visited Pattaya. I was already schooled on Thai women before I got there. Like most men, I eventually got "hooked up" with a Thai who works in a bar. She was in her mid 30s, dressed conservatively even by American standards. We were able to talk. She never asked me for anything.I didn't want anything from her except her conversation. We started liking each other. I found her nice to be around. She never knew when I was going to show up at her bar. Whenever I did show up, she was never around any other guys. So what am I saying? I'm not going to marry the woman. But, I found this woman to be decent (maybe I was a potential victim).Like I said earlier, she didn't ask me for a thing. I only bought her one drink during my visit. She is supporting her father and a daughter. I believe it is possible to find a decent Thai woman who works in a bar. She spent years cleaning hotel rooms. She wanted a change. She is definitely someone whom I will never forget.

typicalthaigirl says:

For all of yr comments about Thai ladies.
I thought that some is acceptable but some are not Is there anything like below happened somehow in yr country?
Do u find any ?
" like to have sex for free " " lie and cheat "
Come on guys...Be Honest..and tell us the truth
" what do u want when u come to Thailand ? "
" what is the first thing when u think about Thailand ?"
Please dont blame anyone if some Thai girl cheating on u. Ask yrself first, where did u place her in yr life, How serious relationship do u have with her ? then..u will find the answer for yrself.

Ken Bower says:

I have made 35 trips to Thailand starting with being stationed at U-Tapao and Sriracha during the early 1070's while still in the U.S. Army.

I have probably met more people in the 39 countries and all 50 United States I have lived in, worked in, or visited so I tend to think I know something about people.

After having made 30 trips without getting married to a Thai, I married the youngest daughter of my Buddhist Monk.

That was nine years ago and they have been the best years of my life to date (and I'm 68 yrs old now).

She is the most honest person I have ever met from anywhere (including me), and is totally honest, and shortly after we got married back in 1995, I turned over all the financial duties of our marriage over to her totally. (Oh, and I gave her her own American Express and Visa Cards even B4 we got married. Not one dollar has been spent on anything outside our household food, utility bills, rent, credit card payments etc.

I almost have to beg her to buy something for herself. Like me, she does not drink, smoke, or every butterfly EVER.

I am blessed. Taking so much time to find the perfect partner has worked out well for me. If only the rest of those hoping to find their perfect woman could be so blessed.

Ken Bower
San Antonio Texas

Jim Beam says:

Great post Ken, one should have nothing but admiration for persons like you. You obvioudly know what you want and are willing to wait for the right moment to have it. Unfortunately, there are a lot of other people around that don't have the same mentality and a vast majority of the farangs living or visiting Thailand seem to be the other type.

TANAI KWAI says:

Ken and Jim,

"Like me, she does not drink, smoke, or every butterfly EVER."

"Unfortunately, there are a lot of other people around that don't have the same mentality..."

Yes, it takes all kinds. You may not agree with the way others administer their affairs but as long as you live and let live we'll have no problems.

(smiley)

Jim Beam says:

Sure thing TK - it's a free world.

shinjuku21 says:

I'm desperately in need of advice...met this Thai girl in a bar. Japanese tattoo on her back but she seems to be wanting to change for me. She claims that she has changed her "prefession" from a bar girl to just being a waitress. Needless to say I felt obligated to supplement her income because she won't be earning as much. I pay for her rent and other extra expenses. On my second visit, I was introduced to the whole family in Udon Thani. All family members tied some white strings on my right wrist as well as hers after spending the night at her house. The whole affair was quite wholesome even if I don't understand the whole conversation and the "custom". Did I just get engaged or even worse...? Anyway, went back to Bangkok and her mobile phone just keep on ringing to no end regardles of the time of the day or night. I wish I can understand her phone conversation, this really bothered me. Now I am back at home, far away from her, I try not to imagine what she is actually doing. It seems that she got my soft spot and in the verge of breaking my heart. Should I hire an investigator just to prove my suspicion? or just accept the fact that I was just another name in her mobile phone?

Help!

TANAI KWAI says:

(...)

Paul says:

I find the Thai-girl con-artists thread fascinating but I wonder whether the behaviour witnessed here is really any different to what happens in the West?

First marriage divorce rates in the United States are routinely in the 60% range climbing, I am told, to nearly 75% for second marriages. I don't know what the rates are like in the UK anymore. Anyway, so what's my point here?

Well, for a reasonably well-adjusted and well-paid 30-something bloke like myself, statistically speaking of course, it would seem that the chances of 'marriage-survival' to one of the many late 20-something, early 30-something "I'm so desperate for a f*cking kid and I'll say and do just about anything to rope you in on the deal" farang women I tend to run into / get 'set-up' with is pretty dismal.

What comes next... 5 or 10 years of raising pre-schoolers/youngsters, while I work myself to death paying for the whole-shebang, only for her to piss-off when she gets 'bored' when we 'stop communicating', or when all that working and paying for it means I'm constantly too shagged-out to deliver the goods in the bedrrom as frequently as she'd like.

"but we have careers too" I hear the indignant farang women cry, well OK, well if it doesn't work out, I'll keep the house and the kids, you can move out and pay me the alimony to keep the home together - good deal yea? I might even let you visit the little horrors, IF I decide that it is convenient for me.

This is beginning to sound a little bitter and mysoginistic, and I really don't want it to because I am trying to make an important point.

The point is this: men can be bloody fools when they are in love and frequently get screwed by the objects of their affection. It doesn't matter whether it is some trinket-hungry ex-Isaarn bar girl or a waspy, educated career woman - once you get hooked and do the family thing, it is very likely (statistically of course) that you will end up getting royally had!

We dress up the economic reality that under-pins family life in the West with all these convenient notions of duty, and responsibility, and poor scorn on how it is manifested elsewhere.

I'm not a lefty but I really do think more people should go back and read some freshman-year Marxist theory on marriage and family life.

Marriage truly *can be* prostitution, and the enormous cost of family life in the West these days is nothing more than a mechanism to create a debt-laden, fearful and obedient workforce.

For all you happy couples that have found true love - well good for you, really, I mean it, you are a lucky minority.

Did someone say 'con'?

TANAI KWAI says:

Well said, Paul.

I would enjoy hearing Nahm or Linda comment if they are lurking about.

(...)

Greg says:

Well said Paul.

Dis-embedding oneself from the expectations and group delusions of family and society is hard work. It takes a lot of education, honesty, and creativity.

In this day and age I can't see how anyone can use the argument that having children is a social duty. The opposite is true. And the fantasy about monogamous relationships lasting forever if you find the correct partner is so adolescent.

The Guy Who Plays the Movie Producer in True Romance says:

Greg, you need to also accept that some people become involved in relationships where they are perfectly happy to be monogamous.

I've been guilty of adultery, but I'm not arrogant enough to believe that because I've done it, that no one else is capable of being faithful.

Why call romantic ideals adolescent? It's no different to your longing for a partner that you can connect with intellectually.

That being said, your points are somewhat valid although dogmatically expressed.

Greg says:

Hi Guy.

In other posts I've mentioned that I also do monogamy. I agree that sometimes it is not only warranted, but the only possible setup that will allow for deep committed love.

Adultery and non-monogamy are very different setups. Non-monogamous relationships are not about cheating, as there is nothing to hide.

Romantic ideals are adolescent in that a dream is replacing measurable reality. Far less than 50% of marriages last for 10 years. Of those in that minority only 10% claim to remain in the relationship due to love. Contrast that with the romantic ideal that everyone who get's married starts with.

Greg says:

Regarding your analogy of my longing for deep communication with a partner, I don't see that as analogous to longing for a permanent partner. For one thing, personally, I take what I can get instead of nothing at all. I'm not holding out for Ms. Right. For another I have several times dated women more than my equal intellectually. I know they exist.

A minority of people do have lasting and satisfying monogamous relationships, but to put that forward as the touchstone against which all other relationships are measured is unrealistic. We don't live in that world.

TJ says:

well said Tania Kwai, Ken, oh nice one Ted Hughes.

and for you Rick and Shinjuku wake up and smell the fucking coffee guys, why is it that when guys come to los they seem to leave their brains at duang muang ! and the dick takes over. if you met a western women in your own country who could cook and after youd known her for a few months would you give up your job and set up a bizz with her if the answer is yes you need to see a doctor quick.

furthermore if you met an hooker in your own country who told you she wanted to quit and be with you would you beleive her ? come on guys what the fucks up with ya !

as for the 50% owner thing in Thailand mate your a farang it dont matter if you were here in the war your still a farang you dont own nowt here mate and never will just remember your only treated well here whilst youve got money and the cash cow can be milked mate, as long as you remember that youll be ok!.

metronil says:

Lived next door to a guy that married a thai whore...She was great fun while he was at work all day! Plenty of video and pictures to prove it too!

TANAI KWAI says:

Regarding Paul's post above,

I would [still] enjoy hearing Linda or Nahm comment, if they are so inclined.

Greg writes,

"In this day and age I can't see how anyone can use the argument that having children is a social duty."

I am not at all inclined to have children myself but it seems that the experience of doing so is a fairly important building block of many a rich life. I say this not to marginalize the childless. It's just that there is just something elemental about it -- fully realizing your potential as a reproductive being, however brute or common a process one deems it to be. The world's literatures, religions and cultures are obsessed with issues of maternity, paternity, philoprogenitiveness and all the rest of it. It is not lightly that I would choose to go through life without fulfilling this virtual imperative, though it's quite possible. All this being said I agree people have children for some frighteningly stupid reasons.

The Guy Who Plays the Movie Producer in True Romance writes,

If you are, as you claim, renowned character actor Saul Rubinek* (and I'll thank you not to pull our collective leg on this score) it may interest you to know that you are not the first celebrity to grace this board. Superstar footballer Mick Channon has also been know to make an occasional appearance here, usually to call one of us a cunt. If I can permit myself to boast, he has called me a cunt at least twice. Quite an honor, as you can imagine.

Which reminds me of a quaint story from the days of Pancho Villa, when he and his band of outlaws rode from town to town terrorizing the inhabitants. On one such occasion, his horse dropped a steaming load as he arrived in the modest town square. Pancho spotted a peasant cowering in the distance and said, "You there... Come and eat this pile of shit." Pancho Villa's wrath was legendary and so the poor man crawled across the dirt without delay and obliged.

A few days later some strangers rode in to town, drawn by the rumor that the great Pancho Villa had been spotted in town. "Is it true?" they asked the peasant. "Is it true than Pancho Villa was here?" "Oh yes," The peasant nodded. "Well... Did you meet him?" they asked. "Did I meet him?" the peasant replied smugly, "I had lunch with him!"

Anyway, I hope one day myself to be touched by fame's gentle caress in the hope of adding to the Mango Sauce Avenue of the Stars.

(...)

TANAI KWAI says:

*See http://www.dougmacaulay.com/kingspud/sel_by_actor_index_2.php?actor_first=Saul&actor_last=Rubinek

Greg says:

Yes, I hear that for some having kids is seen as fostering growth. There are environmental concerns to consider that I see as outweighing the personal growth issues.

TANAI KWAI says:

Babies do shit a lot.

(...)

Greg says:

Some feel that the rate of environmental degration is unsustainable and that no amout of conservation can help - the only solution is less people. One way or another, that is inevitable. I'd prefer one way than the other.

TANAI KWAI says:

I appreciated your initial point and your Malthusian follow-up. Just jesting.

Even if folks just stuck to having one or two kids, we'd all be better off. Of course, the southern world is vastly outpacing the northern world in respect of population growth, with zero or negative growth being the approaching norm in numerous wealthy countries (or the primary or sole growth being among non-native populations).

(...)

Greg says:

Ya, it's a bitch. The eugenecists are crying. But new technology is actually only a few decades away from an injection that will make your baby have a high IQ, eliminating the genetic class differences we currently have.

Greg says:

I sound like a futurist, but some technology is already at hand. Some genes related to intelligence have already been identified, and there is already a method of injecting gene altering viruses that have a greater than 60% success rate at expressing the appropriate genes in offspring. Twin and other genetic studies have conclusively linked genes and IQ, and there is also a large environmental factor. Merely taking folic acid supplements during pregancy can make a very significant permanent IQ change in offspring. Being a racist is no longer completely unfashionable.

TANAI KWAI says:

There are differences in certain cognitive abilities among people but "IQ" is not the static, predetermined trait some would have us believe. It can be profoundly affected by nutrition, teaching methods, expectations placed upon the subjects, etc. Israeli educators found that they could boost the scores of "low IQ" Ethiopian children by mixing them up with "high IQ" children from the general population -- but foisting the same high expectations on the whole group. Eventually, all of the children reached comparably outstanding "high IQ" status.

It will surprise no one that there is a fairly schematic correspondence betweeen the mean IQ of a given country and its per capita income.

I suspect we each consider "IQ testing" to be a very limited tool for measuring human intelligence, not to speak of human potential. If you haven't seen it, check out the film "Gattaca" -- flawed but provocative.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119177/

On the other hand, they don't breed horses for nothing.

(...)

Tommy Trinder says:

Tanai

You make some very profound points here. As you are obviously a man of undoubted intellegence, I expect that, if pushed, you would usually be able to back up your analysis on IQ and what impacts upon it with specific and relevant empirical, scientific or artistic evidence.

That said, I've seen the film Gattaca and it was a pile of shite (a bit like most of your postings). I can only concur thus that Mick Channon was spot in his analysis. You are indeed a cunt (and let's face it - Mick knows a thing or two about breeding horses).

TANAI KWAI says:

Tommy's father types,

"You make some very profound points here. As you are obviously a man of undoubted intellegence..."

Thanks so much. I suspect by "intellegence" you are trying to capture both "intelligence" and "intellect" so I am doubly appreciative.

"if pushed, you would usually be able to back up your analysis on IQ and what impacts upon it with specific and relevant empirical, scientific or artistic evidence..."

And if pushed, I suspect you would bite your pillow and moan faintly.

"That said, I've seen the film Gattaca and it was a pile of shite (a bit like most of your postings)."

Yes, I think I was a bit more charitable in calling it "flawed." I'm thrilled you enjoy my posts, as I do yours.

"I can only concur thus that Mick Channon was spot in his analysis. You are indeed a cunt (and let's face it - Mick knows a thing or two about breeding horses)."

All due respect, Mick uses the term "cunt" with the same looseness one might attribute to your mother, so I wouldn't read that much into it.

(cheers)

Tommy Trinder says:

Thanks for the spell check Tanai. But your still a cnut.

usvirgin says:

"All due respect, Mick uses the term "cunt" with the same looseness one might attribute to your mother, so I wouldn't read that much into it."

Excellent! Thanks for brightening up my day.

usvirgin (another cunt, no doubt;)

Paul says:

Let's try and get this thread back on track...

I found this interesting: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3789993.stm

40 years of trying to get your arms out of the kitchen sink, and now women are belly-aching coz it is a little too tough out there for them

Well boo hoo, you've made your bed, now lie in it.

For me, as a bloke, it would be nice to have that choice. I guess I could be a house-husband... talking of cunts.

A guess our female friends are beginning to realize that all this career stuff is a con as well, why do you think we don't live as long???

Thoughts anyone?

Greg says:

Scores that are achieved on standard IQ tests are directly correlated with genetics. That is no longer questionable. And yes, there are a host of other factors that also affect IQ. That is also no longer questionable. Nurture is not a counter argument to nature. And yes of course there are many abilities that are not related to IQ test scores, however there is evidence of a general cognitive ability, some even think processing speed, that is tied to IQ tests. Some think that the GDP/IQ link is partly causal, not entirely environmental, and if it were not politically incorrect that would certainly be a valid argument to research.

It is highly unpallatable to consider that some groups of people are less smart than others, but the facts are in - genetic traits are inherited and do play a partial role in general intelligence. How smart the mother and father, and to a lesser extent their parents, and a lesser extent back down your lineage are will give strong predictive information on how smart the children are likely to be.

Along with all this unpallatable scientific news that we are not all created equal comes great promise to actually re-invent ourselves and alter our genes. That is not a futuristic ideal, but already possible.

TANAI KWAI says:

Greg, it is a bit vexing that every time one presents a different viewpoint you essentially accuse that person of slavish adherence to a "politically correct" view, and hold yourself out as the brave champion of all things too unpalatable for the cowardly, unimaginitive and small-minded.

Opinions vary. That's all.

(...)

TANAI KWAI says:

By the way if you like futurism you might check out The First Immortal by James Halperin.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0345420926/104-0495161-3729550?v=glance

If you can get past the first 100 turgid pages it gets quite fascinating.

(...)

Combover says:

Well done Greg. You managed a post without a single use of the word "I".

Greg says:

Are those my motives?

Combover says:

I wouldn't deign to second guess your motives.

Greg says:

I just can't imagine any other motive for implying that environmental causes are the main cause of IQ difference in large groups. I've spent a lot of time researching this and the data is conclusive. It seems to me that some people don't want reality to be built this way. Am I projecting motives upon you?

Anonymous says:

Greg, check out:

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-inferiorIQ.htm

A take I'm sure you're familiar with but nonetheless some interesting points made.

I'm not sure if this related to your previous posts about you're inability to find intellectually compatible girls in Thailand, but if it is then:-

In Bangkok we've been told that close to 60% of people have Chinese blood. So there is a good chance that one out of two girls you meet has Chinese blood.

In Australia where I am from, the Chinese tend to be disproportionately represented in the top 1% of academic achievers.

The link i am trying to make is tenuous perhaps, but I see it as another example of environment affecting "intelligence".

If there is 'really' a discrepancy between the intellects of Thai's and Europeans, I theorise that language may be a factor. It seems that language that shapes your reality tunnel.

The humourous concept of Irish logic came in part from the Irish being forced to speak English pretty much overnight. Instead of learning the language organically, they literally translated Irish words, grammar and phrases into English. In doing so, they maintained their separate reality tunnel even through ongoing generations.

....actually I would love to tighten this argument but just food for thought. Not scientifically proven at all but a reflection on my strong belief in nurture over nature.

Greg says:

Yes, nurture as well nutrition does play a huge role. But it is not an either or argument.

Greg says:

I think that I mentioned that some genes associated with high IQ have already been pinpointed. And twin research as well as other research has already closed the argument about genes affecting IQ. The only resistance to the unshakable evidence that I can imagine is from those that simply don't want the truth to be true.

Errant says:

Says Greg, 'I just can't imagine any other motive ...'

This is known as a failure of the imagination.

Greg says:

Youre imagination is good though. Your ad hominem went beyond calling me a cunt.

TANAI KWAI says:

Okay, Greg, let's back it on up.

You started by saying IQ was genetically determined. You did not tip your hat to "nurture" at all (enraptured as you are by the concept of genetic optimization).

My response was that, genetics notwithstanding, the "science" of IQ testing is imperfect and that IQ scores could be manipulated by external "nurture" factors.

You replied that I was beholden to a PC-mindset incapable of your own unflinching and fearless view of the world.

I pointed out that this is a recurring feature of your character -- one that may be coloring your view of others' views.

Seemingly chastened, you then sought to distance yourself from your own assertion that a contrary opinion could not but be the result of a benighted political agenda, disingenuously asking "Are those my motives?"

Unable to bear the strain of the intervening 19-minute silence you cracked, once again owning up to your true feelings that I am merely a running dog of misguided egalitarianism, stating:

"I just can't imagine any other motive for implying that environmental causes are the main cause of IQ difference in large groups... It seems to me that some people don't want reality to be built this way."

Regardless of what you are able to imagine, that was not my premise. Again, I said that IQ testing is imperfect and that IQ scores can be altered. Nothing more. We all underutilize our minds so much there is plenty of room for improvement among us all.

"I've spent a lot of time researching this and the data is conclusive."

Well, in THAT case...

Greg, if there is any area of inquiry in which the data is not "conclusive" it is probably this one. Allow me to match your own preening by mentioning that I have actually worked with thousands of students in exploring these issues. I developed a program that reduced attrition rates for "at-risk" college students by some 65% at a major U.S. university, which led to a paradigm shift in my own previously "conclusive" views on IQ.

You might enjoy "Stand and Deliver" starring James Edward Olmos as the heroic Jaime Escalante, someone who demonstrated that intelligence (or "intellegence" for that matter) can be molded.*

(...)

"Tough guys don't do math. Tough guys fry chicken for a living."

I love Big Baps says:

Tanai Kwai - christ, you need to get out more

TANAI KWAI says:

Great idea. Perhaps we can go out together and harpoon some BAPs.

(...)

TANAI KWAI says:

Great idea. Perhaps we can go out together and harpoon some big BAPs.

(...)

Tommy Trinder says:

Tanai

You obviously don't rent your films from Blockbuster Video on Holloway Road. Where do you find all of this highbrow stuff. I truly am in awe of you (you pretentious cunt).

Kind regards

Tommy

TANAI KWAI says:

Hello Tommy. Make sure to sit up nice and tall on your dad's knee so you can read this...

The films referenced are not "high-brow" in any meaningful sense. They are medium-budget films released by major studios for distribution to cinemas worldwide. They ain't no "Realm of the Senses" or "Belle de Jour" or Bergman or even early Almodovar.

Anyway, the last films I saw were "Monster," "House of Sand and Fog," and "Asian Street Hookers #6."

(be kind, rewind)

TANAI KWAI says:

Oh, and I left out "Big-Assed Freaky BAPS: An Earthquake of Lovin'".

(...)

Greg says:

Hi Tanai. In my first post about eugenics and genetics and IQ, I did say "Twin and other genetic studies have conclusively linked genes and IQ, and there is also a large environmental factor. Merely taking folic acid supplements during pregancy can make a very significant permanent IQ change in offspring. "

I applaud your work with students. It is still the case that nurture is not a counter argument to nature. It is still the case that genes have been proven beyond all doubt to influence the ability to score high on IQ tests. The twin studies I mentioned involved studying twins that were raised in different households. Yes, the environment makes a difference, but a limited one. The upper limit of possible IQ test scores is not determined environment. And some genes that are common to very high IQ individuals have already been identified. You can't get a more conclusive argument to genes affecting IQ than actually finding some of the genes involved.

Whethere being able to score high on IQ tests means anything other than being able to score high on IQ tests is another issue in which there is very strong evidence. Many abilities are correlated, and there is very strong evidence for what most of us can readily see. Some people are basically just smarter than others. Yes, we can learn and train and improve our mental software. But the fact of software is not a counter argument to the fact of hardware.

Regarding your painting my statement that I've researched this subject as preening, that is more of the same as what I see on this board regularly. Let the nail stand up and it get's smashed down. Say anything that implies anything positive and it is arrogance and preening. Boring.

Greg says:

Tanai - you defended a charge against you of being highbrow. I'd hate to be misrepresented myself, but it is almost as if you were accused of talent. Intellectuals are feared. They were sent to the farms once. In high school a loud "fuck off you cunt" can gain social support and therefore win an argument better than can a sound and meaningful argument. Even outside of high school there is often good reason to be a highbrow elitist.

Ok, now go ahead and acuse me of implying that everyone can't think straight for being too PC.

Moral Crusader says:

hey tanai, is Charmane Star in that Asian hookers 6 film?

TANAI KWAI says:

Dear Moral,

Ms. Star does not appear in any of the Asian Street Hookers series (not from 1-16 at least).

Yours,
Tanai Kwai

TANAI KWAI says:

Greg, you write:

"Many abilities are correlated, and there is very strong evidence for what most of us can readily see. Some people are basically just smarter than others."

Who you gonna believe, me or your lyin' eyes?

If I had to identify one aspect of your approach that would give me pause it is your unwavering certitude in your perceptions, which sound a lot like judgments -- from which there is no appeal.

Funny thing about humans... they surprise you with what they are capable of given a little room to grow.

Just as I failed to consider your reference to folic acid as a recognition of the "nurture" component of the analysis, so too have you overlooked my statement that "they don't breed horses for nothing." Again, I am not arguing that folic acid suppositories will turn you into Einstein. I am just suggesting that there is a lot more to human potential than what is cognizable to a bunch of officious test-givers. That's all.

As for saying you were preening, (1) you were, and (2) I am (aside from being a pretentious cunt) what is known as a "wind-up merchant." Keep that in mind next time I say something squirrelly like that. In any case, your alter-ego "Arrogant" seemed to appreciate my little jabs. You two talk it over.

"Tanai - you defended a charge against you of being highbrow. I'd hate to be misrepresented myself, but it is almost as if you were accused of talent. Intellectuals are feared."

Nah, Tommy was just working with what he had. We're not sitting across from one another, able to critique one another's physical appearance, for example, so we make the most of what we have in crafting insults. Appreciate also that while not using a pseudonym that relates directly to British football, Tommy operates within the rich comic tradition of the Chopper Harrises, the Marcos, the Shacks, and others susceptible of using the "teh" and "cnut" modality. I appreciate Tommy's homage to bestial hooliganism for what it is, and look for the beauty in it.

(...)

Greg says:

Endless repetition of my previous arguments. Nature not counterpoint to nurture and all that. Yes, I did hear your comment about horses.

Unwavering certainty? Consider it a call to arms. Debate is fun and instructive.

Come on. The folic acid reference was put right beside a broader reference to the broad environment. Strike two in representing my position.

TANAI KWAI says:

"Endless repetition of my previous arguments. Nature not counterpoint to nurture and all that. Yes, I did hear your comment about horses."

So why all the whingeing? I am not equating nature and nurture, only saying that nurture can have an astonishing impact in awakening potential.

"Come on. The folic acid reference was put right beside a broader reference to the broad environment. Strike two in representing my position."

Please. Your whole tack is to minimize and devalue environment as a meaningful factor. Now you want to take up the mantle of a nurturer too? How PC of you. I knew you'd join me in taking the woolly-headed, irrational, cowardly view sooner or later.

Here's my take:

(1) this argument has become, as you earlier said, boring; and
(2) my overarching observation is that you seem hellbent on casting others as "PC" whenever they disagree with you.

(...)

Greg says:

I disagree that my words in this thread in any way minimize and devalue environment. I have taken pains to be explicit. In case I did mislead, I'll be more explicit. Yes, environment has been proven to have a large but limited effect on IQ.

You mentioned race horses, but you keep coming back to environment, as if environment is a counterpoint to the truth of genes affecting IQ. Yes, I have the courage to take a broad and nuanced position. You have the courage to take a position and claim that you don't take it. So, do genes affect group IQ or not?

TANAI KWAI says:

"Intellectuals are feared."

"Yes, I have the courage..."

Ay, ay, ay. There is precious need for fear or courage here. Just a friendly (if excruciating) chat.

"Yes, I have the courage to take a broad and nuanced position."

Oh, to transcend my own narrow and workmanlike positions!

"Yes, environment has been proven to have a large but limited effect on IQ."

This is certainly a nice, temperate distillation of your views. Quite even-handed. Wonder whether "very limited" shouldn't be inserted in place of "limited." Oh well, no matter. Probably a nuance that is well beyond me.

"You mentioned race horses, but you keep coming back to environment, as if environment is a counterpoint to the truth of genes affecting IQ."

Jesus-on-a-rhinestone-covered-crutch, man! You and your "counterpoint." I am not acting in the capacity of a contrapuntist to the genetic underpinnings of intelligence. Asserting time and again that this is my position doesn't change what I've said.

"So, do genes affect group IQ or not?"

Of course they do! Genes affect every aspect of human (or equine) existence! But they are not pre-determinative of our potential to, for example, improve our IQs. Or to be more successful than those supposedly born with greater intellectual gifts. Or for a horse like Smarty Jones, with sub-par genetics and a crushed skull to come damned close to being the first triple-crown winner since 1978.(!)

I'm just tweaking you for erring on the side of a kind of genetic Calvinism. You applaud my work with students but I don't think it would be particularly helpful to encourage them to focus on their supposed limitations in respect of others when they can become demonstrably "smarter" simply by using certain superior approaches to learning and memory (and by obtaining some decent mentoring). On one level, who really cares if they are making the same grades as those with naturally elevated IQs? (Of course, this is perhaps more a question of pedagogy but it still bears on the topic.) I am by no means suggesting that we shield children from the knowledge that some people are nitwits and some are geniuses. Nor would I consider it to be anything but a boon for the geneticists to improve the intellectual functioning of the human race.*

Now if you disagree with any of that I have no choice but to declare you the winner of the argument.

It's been a lively contretemps but now I must retire for the evening.

(...)

*The only trouble is, we would have no police officers. Due to the repetitive and boring nature of that position candidates with high IQs are discouraged from pursuing police work.

Combover says:

May I suggest that you chaps continue this particular discussion via email?

TANAI KWAI says:

Apologies, Combover.

I know we'd long since worn out our welcome. Thanks for your sensitivity in not belaboring the obvious -- that we have behaved like a couple of gassy cunts.

(...)

Greg says:

"Oh, to transcend my own narrow and workmanlike positions!"

You are a funy and witty guy. But you rely heavily on attacking the poster, even at the expense of projecting your views onto him or mistreprenting his clearly stated views. Satire is funier when it satirises something that exists outside of your own mind.

" Probably a nuance that is well beyond me."

Yes, that's it. All of my posts were meant to call you stupid and blinded by being politically correct. Wow. We could instead just have a discussion about issues.

I am a terribly flawed individual - no argument there. Anything you say should be used against me. I suck. I spell bad and my grimmer and writing style are bad. You should point all of that out, in detail, and focus your posts on that. If I show any weakness you should seize upon that, regardless of what the discussion is about. Go for the perceived weakness. That is what argument is about anyway - showing up the other guy.

"But they are not pre-determinative of our potential to, for example, improve our IQs."

Actually, they are. You aren't going to ge an increase of more than 20 points, even starting at infancy. The major limit is genes, which gives swings of over 200 points.

"I don't think it would be particularly helpful to encourage them to focus on their supposed limitations in respect of others when they can become demonstrably "smarter" simply by using certain superior approaches to learning and memory"

Yes, agreed. I really do admire the work you have been doing.

Cog says:

Jawohl Mein Fuhrer,

The presupposition that the IQ test is a measurement of "Intelligence" is flawed and points to circular reasoning.
"the wheels on the bus goes round and round..."

Read, The Mismeasure of Man, by Stephen Jay Gould (1996, W. W. Norton and Co., ISBN 0393039722.), to balance some of your entrenched views.

Zieg Heil!

TANAI KWAI says:

Okay, okay -- I yield, Uncle, Uncle.

I admit the following:

(1) I misrepresented your nuanced views, thus failing to satirize you properly.

(2) I poke fun at you, not for amusement or to make the workday go by faster, but because your arguments are superior.

(3) You never jumped to the conclusion that contrary arguments must be "PC" claptrap; rather, I projected my views on you.

(4) I mistakenly asserted that IQ's could be significantly improved. You put me in my place, suggesting that increases of 20 points or less do not amount to meaningful improvement when viewed in the context of GENETICS. (Kindly stand still and do not run from this position as I am not through yielding to you.) This in spite of the following:

a. The standard deviation from the mean IQ of 100 is right around 15 points;
b. Gorillas have been tested using IQ tests designed for humans and achieved scores of between 70 and 95 points (the one that scored a 70 happened to be Mr. Peter's girlfriend, BuBu);
c. Wechsler's work on the Stanford-Binet test sets forth the following distribution:

Classification..........IQ Limits............% of Sample
Very Superior.........128 and over......2.2
Superior.................120-127.............6.7
Bright Normal.........111-119.............16.1
Average.................91-110...............50
Dull Normal............80-90.................16.1
Borderline..............66-79.................6.7
Defective...............65 and below.......2.2

Of course, since you opened my eyes to the freakish 200-point swings that are possible through the magic of genetic engineering, my modest goals of 10 or 20-point improvements seem downright pitiful (though such a meager number of points supposedly constitutes the difference between human and animal intelligence/intellegence).

By the way, you are a clever bastard yourself, with the "make direct contact with your anus" and "you have no intro to spect" and whatnot so don't patronize me.

Okay, you get the last word. Renewed apologies to all.

(...)

Prorogue says:

Am I naturing my nurture or vice versa?

Kisses

Pro

d says:

bullshit, i dont think a gorilla can read, never mind take an IQ test.

TANAI KWAI says:

http://www.koko.org/world/

(...)

Greg says:

"Jawohl Mein Fuhrer,"

Ya, Hitlers regime considered that some people and groups were superior to others, and went on an extermination rampage. Therefore no groups are in any way superior to any other. His regime also advocated breathing, therefore the idea of breathing is tainted. Anything that can be associated with Hitler is bad, and wrong in every possible way, including scientifically measurable ways.

I've said it before and I"ll say it again. The way we think is fundamentally flawed - we make associations and these cloud our future perceptions. The guilt by association is a perfect example of our broken brains.

I read the amazon reviews of The Mismeasure of Man and some of them were quite negative. About the author academician Richard Dawkins says (see Bryson, "A Short History of Nearly Everything", pp. 330-332) "If only Stephen Gould could think as clearly as he writes!"

An argument agains IQ is in print. Many more arguments for creationism are in print. If you can not yourself articulate and defend the arguments but can only reference a book, reading it must not have served you.

Greg says:

Hi Tanai.

20 points is a lot. A real lot. Environmental stimulus and diet and love and training can make a big difference - a difference that is very meaningful.

The range of IQ in normal environments ranges in the bell curve from about 60 to 220, with a few people over 250, I think.

The range of IQ groups ranges from roughly 70 to 110. South Korea is at the top, followed by Japan. I think it is Fiji, or somewhere near there that is at the bottom.

What IQ does a working democracy require? Certainly 70 won't cut it.

Greg says:

By the way, 20 points is very generous. Even 10 points is generous. 20 points gives some leeway for negative effects on IQ. For instance being socially ostracized can give a dramatic drop in IQ.

Greg says:

And of course some sub-groups are 115 and above. College educated folks have been marrying college educated folks for generations, creating a new genetic and economic class. Ever read the book "Slan"? Eugenics can work in reverse, and may very well do so.

TANAI KWAI says:

Okay, Uncle Greg, 8 points or 5 points (whatever). I knew you would go for the perceived weakness when... Even you would have to admit 5 points (while not 10 or 20 points) is still extremely significant in the context of a person's effectiveness in a quotidian sense.

"I've said it before and I"ll say it again. The way we think is fundamentally flawed - we make associations and these cloud our future perceptions."

Blame John Locke for having said it in the 18th century. Only he celebrated association of ideas as the fount of creativity.

(technically on to a different subject but one that holds equally little interest for the readership)

John U says:

Tanai & Greg,

I think you two should try to get boring accepted as an Oympic event.

Your countries would be proud of you.

John U says:

Tania & Greg,

Oympic is of course the Jewish version. e.g. "Oy vay".

For the rest of us an Olympic event would see you two close to the all time record.

Prorogue says:

John U

Are you drunk in charge of a keyboard?

Pro.

John U says:

Yeah Pro,

Is it illegal these days?

Where are you, USA, Afganistan, Saudi Arabia?

We can have an alcoholic drink at 18 in the UK. Aren't we fucking degenerate?

John U says:

Pro,

You are right, but it's not illegal where I am, and although I've typed quite a few articles over the last hour or so, I would invite you to compare the number of words I've produced with the verbiose outporings in just one article by Greg and Tanai

TANAI KWAI says:

John U. figures out that Tanai Kwai & Uncle Greg are boring!

(alert the media)

D says:

i cant believe u posted a link about gorillas taking an IQ test. u boring fucking wanker. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Dana says:

Imagine how much more interesting and entertaining and informative a thread this would have been if I had been participating. Class, style, breeding, education, wit, and the ability to reach down with a helping hand and help the toddlers to stand. Sorry I was away. I was filling out another application form to Mensa. They keep turning me away. They say I am too smart. It's hard to be me. Constantly misunderstood and belittled and unloved by homo sapiens with the eyes of beagles. I'm not complaining though. The view is great up here and the air is clear. The godheads day is coming and my retribution will be swift. No need to worry. If you've got a beating heart you are probably going to be included in the winnowing.
After desroying all of the men and most of the women my next task will be to replace the Thai female logo that appears in the upper left hand corner of this site. I could throw a rock at a Nana whore convention and hit a Thai woman who is more representative of our Thai dreams than this face. What's David on? Crack? Or is it his girlfriend? If it is his girlfriend forget everything I just said about her. She is female perfection incarnate. See how I can intellectually jump around. That's why Mensa won't take me. Too clever.

DANA says:

Anyway,that's enough of my mindless rant's,time for a leisurely stroll down to NanaPlaza and idle away an hour or two with a katoey.Preferably with a big dick.These alpha women are a sight to behold,their body is a playground and i love to ride.Back with a report soon.

Mark Haeger says:

I've lived in Thailand for 7 years. Six years with my Thai wife I met in Bangkok. We now live in SiSaKet where I have many western friend with Thai wives. Some have been married 20-25 years and very happy. Yes, Thai women will take your money, just as western women (especially wives) will. They just have a more 'matter-of-fact' way of telling you they need it. Even a generous man in Thailand gets away cheaper than he would in the west.

David T says:

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Neophyte Farang says:

I have recently been to Thailand twice and I am rather new to all of this. But I must say that this diatribe, and the threads on this site, are rather amusing to me. But I do have a couple of rather interesting questions...for any Thai female or experienced expat.

First, I am serioulsy considering moving to Bangkok (although IMHO it should really be called BangCunt, but that one is for another thread).

Like many Western men I would love to marry a Thai woman as even the worst ones treat us Westerners better than the best female farangs in the world.

Now, unlike most short-term tourists, I have never found then need to take every Thai girl that I meet and put her ankles into different ZIP codes, but rather I have begun my search for the 'right' girl, although I really don't know what that is...yet.

So, for me Thailand was never really about a 1 or 2 week f***-a-thon, but was rather a search for a new and interesting life with a wonderful woman.

Now, I am fairly successful, 40years old (and fairly good-looking) and would be leaving behind a career where I make over a $300,000 USD for a new life in Thailand so I would be rather comfortable there.

Anyway, for years I have been seriously considering having a vasectomy because I never really wanted to make the worst investment plan in America (having a child which costs you $250,000 over 18 years, or more, with ZERO rate of return!!!) anyway.

I was wondering what all of you Thai women and long-term expats would think about that? Or rather what a Thai woman would think about that? In the U.S., that would be a big legal no-no if a man did that and did not tell his wife and she could take him to the cleaners if they ever got divorced (especially here in California where I live).

So my questions are as follows: Would that be a huge problem for most Thai women if they could not have children? And also, if I ever got married to a Thai girl and did not tell her that, could that come back to haunt me in divorce proceedings if I ever got divorced in Thailand? Would she probably divorce me if she found out that I did not tell her? Or is is easy to meet Thai women who do not care about having children so I should just be upfront with them?

Also, can a Thai woman (in a divorce in Thailand) be able to take, or keep, any of my assets that I might bring to Thailand from America (this is more of a legal than an ethical question)?

Also, I have met a girl there already, or rather a few girls there, but there is one that I am rather fond of. She has told me that she would really prefer to live in Thailand, but is willng to visit America often if we ever get married. I want to know if this is a good sign or a bad sign?

Obvioulsy, I am aware that MANY Thai women are looking for a better life (I do not necessarily mean a meal-ticket to all of you jaded, old expats) with a farang who treats them better than Thai men do, but I want to know if this is actually a sign that she really might like me because she doesn not find it necessary to have me take her to America to live.

Any input would be greatly appreciated...

I just can't take it anymore says:

Fuck me, another filthy rich, good looking gentleman who needs advice on how to find a Thai wife.

It's amazing how all the guys on the internet are good looking and wealthy, I guess all the fat, ugly cheap Charlies I see down Sukhumvit don't surf.

Yeah, Charlie don't surf.

Mike says:

Dear Neophyte Farang,

For the amount of money you mentioned, you can piss on or get pissed on for many years. Even a little shit on the face wouldn't be of any inconvenience. As long as you distribute the money evenly...

There is nothing easier than easy life in Thailand, but if you are looking for a true and stable relation, without the whole of the lies, you better do your preliminary work... Thais love Thais most, and their [censored] PM's party is called Thai rak Thai - Thais love Thais.

My girlfriend does everything for me, but when I want to sue the guard Company for the fact that my bike was stripped in front of their eyes, she suddenly doesn't see the interest.

I love Thais, and I eventually fuck them. But I really have to sort out the respect thing yetÖ

dabbledave says:

Serious questions and on topic:

I need an exit strategy from what is becoming my worst nightmare. My Issan wife of three years and I have had an argumentative relationship for months (based around her intolerance of my occasional boys' nights out with mates). We have a one-year old son. Just yesterday I found out that she has been having an affair with another farang, who lives in the same condo building, for at least the past two months (while I've been at work -- the other guy is retired -- and while she's gone "kup ban" -- when actually she's gone to a beach resort with said farang).

I want to sue for divorce on the grounds of adultery:

1) What evidence and proof will I need?
2) Will a successful suit for divorce due to her adultery guarantee that I will have sole custody of my beloved son?

Any experiences, knowledge or anecdotes about this are very welcome!

Cheers

D

apple says:

I got into this website by accident -what a sad!! reading all these stories about the opinion of farangs for Thai ladies. I am a Thai girl, living and doing master degree in UK and having relationship with an English man for nearly 2 years. Now I feel terrible and don't want to walk or go anywhere with him anymore. I feel like I don't want to continue this relationship with him anymore because I'm scared people will assume i'm a hooker. I'm surrounded by people who don't like the idea of having farang boyfriend including my family and friends, they always told me that I will get insulted by other people and they will look down on me. I never believe in that kind of attitute and always fight for my boyfriend to get him accepted....but now I'm getting weaker.. although I know who I am, I know I'm diferrent from those girls, I'm educated and I'm from wealthy family but sometimes knowing how people feel about Thai girls is eating me away and that makes me sick and hate my boyfriend.

mr peter says:

Apple I live in UK and have had thai GF here and in LOS, you are far more likely to get looked on as a hooker in LOS than anywhere in the UK, here you are just another foreign face. . Make your mind up girl first you say you want to fight to get your BF accepted then you tell us you hate him.
Are you sure it's not the pressure from your family that is starting to get you down and not all this imagined hostility from strangers?-peter
PS do you like luktung?

Anonymous says:

It has helped us greatly that my wife has a reasonable understanding of western culture (having studied abroad) and this is something that most Thai's do not have the opportunity or willing to do.

David

--------------------

"Not willing to do?" I truely disagree with that.

Anne says:

BTW, the person who wrote this article should be writing a smililar story about the ladies where he grew up. But why don't you make a website about your own home country? Explore all the problems where you are from and write about them.

Anonymous says:

Well, nowadays I don't even want to answer when people ask where I come from. All the stereotypes about thai women really make decent thai girls are ashamed of where we are orriginally from.

Lots of people think Thai women are cheap meats. No, we are rich at hearts!

Mike says:

Huh,

I guess that half of this site explores and discusses the fat white moaning problems already...

Cog says:

Apple wrote:
"Now I feel terrible and don't want to walk or go anywhere with him anymore. I feel like I don't want to continue this relationship with him anymore because I'm scared people will assume i'm a hooker."

สงสัยจะไม่รักจริง...
รักใคร รักแท้ ก็ต้องรักให้มันสุดหัวใจฃิครับ

I'm a Thai male, people assume I'm a worthless SOB with a diminutive dick...unfortunately, it's true, but that's beside the point. The point is: if you truly love the fellow, don't let the baseless opinions of others affect your relationship.

apple says:

I love my boyfriend but sometime I can't help wonder how long will it last... because we're so different. my boyfriend's got very bad attitute with the poor people particularly Thais which I'd never understand that. I've been living in UK for long time but my boyfriend he works in Thailand and he seems to know well about Thai.

John U says:

Apple,

Just a few thoughts of mine regarding your comments on 30th. June.

The reason we write so much about Thailand and the ladies is because we love it so much and are trying to make sense of it in our own way.

We love the Thai ladies and the way they treat us while we are there.

The trouble is that they treat us so well, that we can't help believing that they are in love with us.

After a while we find that they do not love us, it's only the money. We are disappointed and hurt. So we write about our stories and read others stories to help make sense of our feelings.

The sensible ones amongst us know that not all Thai ladies are prostitutes, and we treat Thai ladies with the same respect as we do ladies from any other culture.

So don't think we look on you as something to scorn.

Speaking personally I love to see the Thai ladies who are now living in my region - and their numbers are increasing :<) - . When I see one it brings a smile to my face, and they always smile in return.

There is much more smiling these days where I live. Smiling; one of the most precious exports from the Land of Smiles.

apple says:

John U
That really makes me feel better, thanks.

chris says:

expat sites! give me a break. you lot going on about the pitfalls of relationships with girls you met while paying them for sex, makes me laugh. would you do it at home?

get out of nana and soi 33 and go and meet a girl. learn some thai. most of all grow up. bar girls are like blockbuster videos, you never rent the same one twice.

Egill says:

Most generalizations about Thai girls are useless. They are as different as they are many. So much has been written about the scams going on in Thailand, but what about the scams in the West? Is the West full of innocent little angels?

In my opinion, being fooled is one part of the Thai (first) experience. Take better care next time - and never put the big buck into anything.

Being fooled in the LOS happens because 1. You dont know the language. 2. You don't understand the culture. 3. You misunderstand the whole situation. 4. You are treating Asian women the same way you would Western women.

If you want to understand Thai people, you must remember one thing. Nothing is taken very seriously in the LOS.

We from the West are brought up differently. Telling a lie is not serious in the LOS. It is just normal. One friend told me: In the LOS, you just listen to what people say without paying real attention to it or giving any special significance. Most of the time, the people themselves do not even know or care if they are telling the 'truth' (what is truth? a philosophical question that has never been answered) or just telling some story in order to have fun, make an impression or just pass the time or - to gain face.

In their hearts, most Thais are good people who adhere to the Buddhist religion. One of the basic tenets of Buddhism is that everyting is impermanent. Everything changes. We can only change some things in life, other things we cannot change. For this reason, people should not worry too much. But brought up in the West, we worry all the time, even if our bank savings books are full.

After all, what people do is more important than what they say.

There is a reason for everyting in people's lives and behavior.

If you really want to find out, you will find out.

And guys, stop looking for the Western woman in the Thai body - for she has never existed and will never exist. But still, you go on looking for that which does not exist.

Dana says:

Attn: Egill

Being fooled in the LOS happens because Thais fool you. If they didn't fool you, you wouldn't get fooled. I refuse to take 100% of the blame for every negative social thing that happens to me in Thailand. I meet people from other countries in the United States all the time because I live in a city that is very popular with people from all over the world. And in my job I routinely interview people from about 50 countries a year. I never fool any of them. Not one of these lost and lonely people can say that they had a negative social experience in the United States because this American fooled them. The reason I am fooled so many times in the LOS is because that is what Thais do to people.

Oz Terry says:

Guys check this out . It explains the meaning of all relationships all over the world. Forget anything you may believe about equal partners.

http://www.intellectualwhores.com/masterladder.html

The imbalance in south east asia that means a fat ugly bald middle income no prospect guy can get a beautiful brown girl is simply due to the relative differences in earning power and attitude. Just like we cant believe we can get someone this attractive they cant believe they can get someone this rich and powerful who treats them decently. If you take them home to your country or introduce them to your mates its like superman going back to krypton you lose all your power and you are fucked frankly.

ADONIS IN UK says:

WOW. what a site!! definitely some characters on here, TANAI and GREG among the most humourous. Some of your bitch fights had me in stitches. I find most of the comments helpful, it always pays to see the other peoples perspectives on things as there are people here who have obviously have far more experience of thai women/ culture than i do. Any way i have met a bar girl who works in my mates bar, by amazing coincidence i met her mother in nam phong first, long story, but anyway, spent the holiday with her and yes, paid for her time and enjoyed every minute of it. Realising what was happening, i was falling in love with her, i tried to distance myself from her as we got closer to leaving time. She couldnt understand why i was suddenly different. i couldnt leave without telling her how i felt. Having been the attention of many farang, who often told her "i love you, i will take care of you" and then pissing off into the sunset never to return, she was very dubious about my feelings. still, after returning home and leaving her to the mercy of all the perving farang. I kept my promise to email daily and text her and we speak daily via webcam and msn. I am under no illusions as to what she is doing now i am back home, it IS her job nontheless. But i still love her and will marry her. she is leaving the bar to return home next week to seek proper work as it will help our case when it comes to visa's etc. It helps that she has never asked for money, but my friends wife is her mothers friend so i will know if she stays in the bar and is spinning me one. My point? well i just think that look for the good in them and dont paint them all with the same brush, bad ones yes, good ones also, but they are all human AND have feelings too!! if im back in a month or two having been made a mug of, i will fall at your collective knees and take the kicking i deserve. But i live in hope.

EWO says:

Adonis, for the story from the girls point of view, have a look at http://www.pattayapages.com/girls/noi.html

ADONIS IN UK says:

EWO
thanks for the link, had a good read from both sides of the fence. I would have to say i am slightly more clued up than was. Reading the relevant info about 'getting serious' was very revealing. OK QUESTION: how much would one ( i sound like the bloody queen, THE queen not A queen) pay for a small wedding in a village half an hours ride north of khon kaen?i know how long is a piece of string will jump into your minds, but there must be a sort of yardstick, to go by. I mean a price for the wedding, service, food etc NOT inclusive of the dowry. people with first hand knowledge please len a hand. Dont want to appear as a cheap charlie, but obviously the lower the costs the sooner it can happen.That said if i am asked for a silly high amount what is the etiquette? find a cheaper girl?? KIDDING!! comments appreciated. THANKS

mr peter says:

Adonis, have you asked the boy scouts on www.thailand-uk.com? they like nothing better than discussing weddings and visa applications. If you asked there they would be trying to outdo each other-some on how much the do cost and some by how little they got away with paying, sort of like the four yorkshire men-'that's nothing the villagers at our wedding paid for the whole thing, including food and drink and the ring, and then made me headman of the village', you get the idea. All depends on the numbers attending and how generous you are feeling, much the same as here really except the brides family don't pay anything (as a rule) If you are talking about a village service this is not of course legal and does not mean you are officially married at all. I should hazzard a guess at 500-700 quid for the lot if around 100 attending and not more than 150 quid for the ring, no point making out your made of money. This includes the disco. If you are made of money and want live singers I can give you the number of a very, very good morlam singer from KK who has a couple of CD's out, that would impress them no end and give you mucho faco -peter

EWO says:

Adonis,

Ignore Mr. Peters childish remarks and take the meat of the advice. You will find lots of advice on Thailand-UK, and some crap as well. After all, we can't all aspire to Mr. P.'s heights of perfection.

This is the link http://www.thailand-uk.com/

I found that the advice from there very helpful, the main reason being that they had all gone through it already or were doing so now.

tonychang says:

Adonis
I'd recommend the nanaplaza.com (dont be put off by the name) message board for some excellent advice about all things Thai and from all sorts of different kinds of people, I've never been dissapointed by their members (fnar-fnar).

Get a Life says:

I would agree with EWO. If things are getting serious and you want info and advice on UK visas then the best place would be thailand-uk.

mr peter says:

OOOh who has no sense of humour now, not the boy scouts club that's for sure. Adonis if by chance your GF is a BG don't mention that on T-UK site as they like to pretend they all married waitresses and shop girls. Good luck anyway-peter

Get a Life says:

Mr. Peter, kindly explain your 12.14 am post, as it makes no sense whatsoever. I married a bg, and the only response I got when mentioning the fact was "If your gf is/was a bar girl don't try to hide it. The embassy know many Farang meet girls in this way."

mr peter says:

Why does NJW have to pretend to be other people? because in may he posted:

Well, David, it would appear from your last post that dissenting voices are not welcome here. Therefore I will leave you and your little band of regulars to continue with you intellectual debates on the merits of watching various "Asian Babes" taking a dump.

Enjoy yourselves, children, I'm sure you wont miss me, and I certainly wont miss you.

Posted by NJW at May 28, 2004 05:26 PM

Although he has once or twice forgotten this and posted as NJW since he has now taken up the silly habit of assuming multiple names in a childish attempt to goad me into yet another pointless and uninteresting argument ,yawn. I hear his bargirl left him which maybe explains why he's bitter and twisted.-peter

Dana says:

OK, I don't see anyone else doing the heavy lifting so I'll do it. I'll take the hit. I'll be the sacrificial lamb. I am sick and tired and bored reading the same old advice on all Thai websites recommending that visiting farangs get out of Nana and get out of Pattaya and get out of Patpong and get out of Soi Cowboy and go see the real Thailand and meet real Thai people. I've got some different advice for all farang visitors. My advice is to not leave Soi Cowboy or leave Pattaya or leave Patpong or leave the Nana. My advice is to stay where you are happy and do what you want and have relationships of the kind that you want to have with the kind of people you want to have them with. That's adult behavior and you deserve it--you're an adult. The notion that standing next to a waterfall in a northern province staring at a sacred tree dodging betel nut spit is a more worthwhile (moral) way to spend your time in Thailand is just silly. And the notion that the denizens of the red light districts and the experiences in the red light districts have to be 100% discounted as Thai experiences is also silly. It all counts. If some guy is staring at a sacred tree and I have a woman from Essan in my arms and in my thoughts and in my life I'd say I'm ahead on points. I am participating in the Thai experience and I am participating on a more personal level and I am learning more. He and I are not equal. On the trip home in the plane I have more stories to tell because I did more. There is only so much you can say about a sunset--but experiences with people are like a bottomless well. So I would like to go on record here and state for probably the first time that all farang should NOT leave the red light districts and go out and see the real Thailand. Stay where you are happy and do what you want. There you have been given permission. No need to thank me.

Get a life says:

Dana, interesting view, each to his/her own. Personaly I prefer to mix my pleasures, as concentrating on just one is very boring in the long term.

Mr. Peter. What on earth are you waffleing on about? I fail to see how your paranoid fantasies are of any use to Adonis, or of any interest to anyone except your therapist. No need to answer my previous and explain your 12.14, as it is obviously another product of whatever you are using for a mind.

Adonis, if you want advice on UK visas, go to http://www.thailand-uk.com/ feel free to mention that your gf is or is not a bg, up to you. No one there will mind or care.

Cog says:

"The notion that standing next to a waterfall in a northern province staring at a sacred tree dodging betel nut spit is a more worthwhile (moral) way to spend your time in Thailand is just silly."

DAMN! NOW someone decides to tell me!

The Post Master says:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
On the trip home in the plane I have more stories to tell because I did more.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

There is a job opening at the Nana post office that might interest you, O Wise One.

All you have to do is act natural - hang in there with your tongue out - just as you do daily now watching ladyboys passing by.

Lost of scope there, to interact with diverse people (the "bottomless well" experience) while they wet their stamps on your tongue.

PS: Would really love to sit next to you on your next trip home. I will remember to bring my ear plugs.

ADONIS IN UK says:

EE BAH GUM PETER TA FOR T'ADVICE LIKE. JUST OFF T'PUB T'DROWN MA SORROWS. YORKSHIRE? BORN AND BRED. MAN AND BOY, WORKING IN T'PIT ETC ETC. (MY ARSE, AS THEY SAY)
Seriously though, monetary advice was what i was after, just ball park figures i guess, so thanks MR PETER for your words. Also thanks to the rest of you for advice/links etc which incidentally i already had, but thanks anyway. I have read the pattaya web page advice on weddings also which was kind of informative also. so from the borders of yorkshire/notts/derbyshire i thanks you all and look forward to reading more of your highly amusing posts, bitching, back stabbing etc it makes this world great doesnt it!! peter will contact you nearer the date should i require singers etc. again thanks.

mr peter says:

Adonis

You might also want to check out:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/ThaiFalang/start

Similar to Thai-UK but more USA people. The good thing about it is thats it's either far better moderated than Thai-uk or it attracts a more civilised class of poster, having none of the bully boy know it alls you get on Thai -UK

Nicko says:

"yorkshire/notts/derbyshire"

You forgot Lincolnshire you cheeky sod

mr peter says:

And Leicstershire land of the asylum seeker, well the city is-peter

ADONIS IN UK says:

sorry to put your east coast nose out of joint my friend, but i ommited lincs for a reason. sure the borders of the respective counties do indeed meet each other at some point(unless im mistaken) but just to simplify, i can be in either notts/derbys/yorks within 5 mins travel of my home but it is quite a bit further for me to travel to set foot in lincs. clarified? discussions/arguments/heated debates about all things thai but i never expected to get into land disputes about a county that no one really cares about!! skegness- so bracing MY ARSE

Get a life says:

http://forums.delphiforums.com/ThaiFalang/start
Very useful, if you want advice on US visas.

http://www.thailand-uk.com/
Very useful if you want advice on UK visas.

Contrary to the belief of many Americans, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is not the 51st. state of the United States of America. (Yet, but give Tony and George a chance................)

Both sites will give excellent advice, both will welcome new members and no-one on either will give a toss how or where you met your gf.

mr peter says:

'Both sites will give excellent advice, both will welcome new members and no-one on either will give a toss how or where you met your gf'

well thats what they would like you to think of course, the reality is somewhat different. Thai-uk trumpets itself as a site for thais, their friends and family. Yet any thai who dares to express their own opinions regularly get shot to pieces. The hypocrites on there banned me sometime ago without warning due to negative Pattaya posts, so I cannot give recent examples. But I remember one thai lady poster who was called a bitch and a liar (for claiming to be thai) when she said she looked down on prostititues. Having standards is one thing but thai-uk seem to have different ones for certain memebers and is constantly schizo on nightlife and bargirls. Still, there are always well run sites like nanaplaza and thai falang. It is true that thai-uk is very good on visa advice, but if you want to join their little clique be prepared to agree with the middle aged white fatties that run the place. Most thai memebers seem too shy to post there. -peter

Get a life says:

Well, that answers one question. Mr. Peter is apparently not the same Peter who is currently regularly posting on Thailand-UK, or is he?????

I would suggest that anyone who cares has a look at the site, and they will see that Mr. Peter is talking his usual garbage.

Personaly, I agree with Rhett Butler; "Frankly, my dear, I just don't give a damn."

Tiger says:

I'm a Thai male, people assume I'm a worthless SOB with a diminutive dick...unfortunately, it's true, but that's beside the point. The point is: if you truly love the fellow, don't let the baseless opinions of others affect your relationship.

Posted by Cog | July 2, 2004 12:34 AM

Im a blk guy with a huge dick, and guess what bro? Im also an American and people think Im either a worthless pimp because I have no problem finding nice girl next door types, or an evil drug dealer because I have nice things. Im really sick of how other people's perceptions have such an affect on our lives as well as Im equally sick of ignorant Farangs insulting your culture (as well as others.) I have a different view on Thailand and Thailand people. This view came to me at a movie theater near Pattaya. The King of Siam made an appearance on the screen and everybody stood up for 5 minutes to pay their respects. Farangs that usually complain about getting dogged by bar girls are the type of Farang that is in total beleif that his money will shroud his shortcomings, whether they be appearance or character. People do not realize that Thailand is a country ruled by culture. Face value is everything. Sadly most farangs cannot step out of their own biased point of view. Alot of Farangs view themselves as Avenging Angels commissioned by God to rescue the poor oppressed innocent Bar Girl from the evil Thai men. It maks me laugh to the point of Green Tea spewing from my nose to bear witness of people that actually beleive their own bullshit.

My last day in Pattaya was a very sad one, because I was returning home to the BS that is the US. Unfortunately my seat was next to a German Farang. This guy loved a bar girl, and she cheated on him. He then confessed to me that he struck her, and at that point I wanted to move my seat to the obese lady in front of us. However, he was afraid that they might plant ganja in his home, or even worse they might kill him. In between all of the ranting and ravings against Thai society I saw that this man beleived his own B.S. He did'nt realize that this country was not his own, and he overlooked what a proud and strong people the Thais generally are. I hope he got out of Thailand safe (maybe not) and received a spiritual awakening, but i hope more to never ever have to hear a story like that again.

btw as a 6'6 260 lb blk weightlifter you know what I assume if I see you walking down the street? Someone that would'nt hesitate to storm into a room with a loaded AK-47 if your family was endanger, someone who would starve himself to make sure his children receives a good education, someone that would overlook the fact that his girlfriend has to work as a bar girl because your country is so poor there are'nt many opportunities for you, and lastly someone not to piss off.

rather long post would'nt you say?

~respect

mr peter says:

Get a wife seems to be at his machine as soon as he gets home from work, well I guess the simpsons are not on at the moment are they. Of course I don't post on the thaimafia-uk board, I think they wet their pants once too often at my posts in April. If you become a regular poster there you will soon discover the problem is poor moderation with a few posters getting away with breaking the rules while others cannot post anything without getting shot down. Of all the thai related boards that I have been on over the past 8 years I would say it's the most hypocritical and that it has some of the most unpleasant posters I have ever come across. I feel sorry for some of the wives. What makes me sick is that two of the mods have the nerve to come over all hollier than thou when they are both serial adulterers.-peter

'I always thought a good lashing with a buggy whip would benefit you immensly'-Rhett Butler

Cog says:

Khun Tiger,

Respect, bro. Excellent post.

the evil paw of the three eyed monkey says:

Mr Peter and NJW - can we get some background on why you guys hate each other? The venom that comes across is highly entertaining but I'd love to know the context and am sure others would too.

By the way, it's said that if you stick a monkey in front of a typewriter for long enough, it will eventually type the complete works of Shakespeare. I guess it must be true as at last Dana posted something sensible and readable. Nice one, Dana - 1786th time lucky, eh.

Get a life says:

"I would suggest that anyone who cares has a look at the site, and they will see that Mr. Peter is talking his usual garbage.
Posted by Get a life | July 16, 2004 12:19 AM "

'Nuff said, nothing more to add.

mr peter says:

the evil paw of the three eyed monkey asked:
can we get some background on why you guys hate each other?

I don't hate him but I do feel sorry for him. If you look back at his posts you will see why. I think he proves my point when I say thainasty-uk.com has some very unpleasant posters on there. He did not start to post here until April when I happened to mention the site that cannot abide any who do not love it. Since then his only mission in life seems to try and start pointless arguments where he always wants the last word, he's welcome to it of course. I expect he will start to post under another silly name soon, how about man of straw?-peter

Brad says:

Just a small hint of how to solv the problem of Thai girls collecting many farang male "friends" and not giving them up when she becomes your girlfriend.

After quite a few times trying to explain to my Thai girlfriend that she could not keep all those farang "friends" including some who kept calling her, I told her that I would leave her if she didn't give me her e-mail password and changed her phone number...so I broke up with her.

A day after she called while crying and gave the password to me!!!...and I logged on and learned a good collection of about 100 mostly farang sex freaks in her account...much worse than I thought. When I logged into her messenger account I experienced some stupid farangs going online masturbating on web cam in my face...not knowing that I was a male...:-) Gosh I hated that. And instead of having slept with one farang before as she told me, she slept with an endless number I soon learned. But she revealed everything and gave it up all for me! And I realized that maybe she was more a victim as I would have guessed...finding a farang boyfriend in Bangkok for a student girl is most likely ending with sex. Naive students can easily end up as the cheapest or free prostitutes of Bangkok in their pursuit of finding a farang boyfriend. And she initially didn't want to lose her farang "friends" for me because she was used to nobody being serious anyway.

So I decided to stay with her - afterall she is very sweet and open about her past; and it's mostly us farang guys that are making this culture crazy.

And I gave her a new phone number that no farang guy knows...except me ;-)

Dana says:

Hello Brad--

"and it's mostly us farang guys that are making this culture crazy."

Time to grab the reins fella--you couldn't be more mistaken--if all of the farangs left there would be no change in Thailand--they do the same things to each other!

Get a life says:

Brad,

You are showing great trust, faith and, dare I say, love for your girl. It makes a refreshing change from the usual cynicism expressed on these pages.

Many farang who only see Thai girls as a warm hole into which to put their dicks will tell you you are being stupid. Don't listen to them. Give her a chance to prove herself to you.

I wish you both the very best of luck for the future.

NJW says:

Well, I see Peter's paranoia has been growing while I've been away!

The evil paw of the three eyed monkey, I don't hate Peter, it's difficult to hate something that you just feel utter contempt for. I am worried, though, by the fact that he is a teacher! One hates to think what he is feeding into impressionable minds. One also wonders what his employers would think if they new his 2 favourite leisure activities were viewing hardcore porn and fucking prostitutes!

mr peter says:

Must be a quiet night on thaibarmy-uk as mr mutiple personality is back in his original guise, even though he said he had left never to return. Mr know it all thinks I am a teacher but not so, also my employers are quite happy that I have on occassion fucked prostitiutes. I don't make a habit of looking at porn, but of course neither is illegal unlike drug taking which NJW drove his daughter into.There are a few teachers on thaibarmy-uk however whose favourite pastimes seem to be commiting adulterery and viewing porn. Of course not just a wanker is far too holy to have fucked a prostitiute or looked at naked ladies isn't he, he wound'nt know a con woman as he's far to inexperienced in these matters-peter

ADONIS IN UK says:

I am so glad somebody linked me this site. I am hooked. it beats eastenders anyday!! (for non uk people, crap soap watched by millions) log on everyday to keep up to date with all the bitching, it compulsive viewing, although i love a good verbal 'ruck' im positively amateur in comparison so gloves staying firmly in gym bag. please keep up the good work, but can we have translations for the really big/difficult words.
yours positively in awe. ADONIS

TANAI KWAI says:

NJW:

"One also wonders what his employers would think if they new his 2 favourite leisure activities were viewing hardcore porn and fucking prostitutes!"

As I've said to you before, don't assume we all share your prejudices, your biases, your hang-ups, your opinions, etcetera, etcetera. Go on and bicker with Mr. Peter, deny that you are posting under multiple names, whatever. But if you are here to shame and judge and to make sweeping judgments about those whom you would shame and judge, count on me to reset you accordingly.

Mr. Peter,

Though the ominous reference to contacting your employer was a repulsive, pathetic gesture on NJW's part, your reference to his daughter was out of bounds.

Adonis,

For someone with that name you sure are a humble and pleasant guy. Welcome.

(...)

SHORTFATBALDBLOKE says:

There was a discussion about the UK Thailand website on PattayaPages earlier this year ... http://www.pattayatalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=5440

Our good friend MR PETER (thai3) did get a mention ... Remember, though, every board has a few dickheads as members, and one prime arsehole. Here it's Crackpot, over there it's a guy called Thai3.

But this must have been before MR PETER left that particular discussion forum. I have found the UK Thailand forum to be both interesting and informative and it appears to welcome short fat bald blokes with beautiful Thai lady partners. I am not sure if handsome farang blokes with ugly Thai ladies are as welcome. Maybe others can comment.

ADONIS says:

TANAI KWAI. Many thanks for your obviously well founded judgement. I am such as you describe, but in truth for ADONIS read mini adonis. But as we well know , courtesy of our muay thai practising friends, small does not mean any less deadly so GGGRRR at anyone who fancies taking me on. but seriously i must inform you i am indeed related to the late, great bruce lee. I am his lesser known cousin UGG LEE. maybe thats why i chose thailand as my fav holiday destination? methinks!!

Adonis says:

Is Ang Lee Chinese for frustrated then?

NJW says:

Mr. Peter, you say " Mr know it all thinks I am a teacher but not so" and yet you have described yourself elsewhere as an "educator." Can you explain the difference as I am obviously too stupid to understand.

Or is one or both statements a lie?

TK., I did not make an "ominous reference" about contacting his employers, merely asked a hypothetical question. His response is exactly what one would have expected.

TANAI KWAI says:

"TK., I did not make an 'ominous reference' about contacting his employers, merely asked a hypothetical question."

Okay, NJW, then you might well ask the same hypothetical question about many people here. And I would ask you whether you long for a world in which those who "view hardcore porn and fuck prostitutes" should be denied employment? Is that your position?

So, for example, the fact that I may have (hypothetically) viewed Asian Street Hookers 34 starring Lily Thai (again)... would such a sexcrime subject me to exclusion from the workforce? What if I were to fast-forward through the latest in the "Barely Legal" DVD series to get to the portion featuring the smoking-hot Vietnamese lady who has streaked her hair blonde and inexplicably adopted the African sobriquet "Ashanti"? If convicted, good Sir, would you consider me unfit to build a career at a reputable company?

And as for your proposed scarlet letter for "fucking prostitutes" does that include former bargirls? How about women who accept dinners, gifts, or diamond rings in exchange for the right to enter their beds? Do those who fuck them have to go on the dole as well?

I'd love to hear you state your prejudices boldly, as I've invited you to do several times before. Whatever you do, don't expect everyone to blanch or shudder at violations of your own moral standards.

(...)

Shirley Crabtree says:

Ding Ding ...... Round 78.

This thread is the literary equivalent of.....

C'mon ...... wiv all 'ad a drink ... lesh go home.

;-) (that's a winky)

b&s says:

blanch and/or shudder

sounds like a porno eh?

Get a life says:

Shirley, one of the all rime greats of British wrestleing, mines a pint!

NJW says:

TK, I am not saying that "those who "view hardcore porn and fuck prostitutes" should be denied employment." Only that I would be uncomfortable were a child of mine to be in the care of such a person. You are American so the name Ian Huntley probably means nothing to you. He wasn't a teacher, he was a school caretaker. He abducted and murdered two little girls who attended the school where he worked. He had been under suspiscion before in another area and was a devotee of hardcore porn, but no-one at the school knew this. His case has resulted in much outcry in the UK for stronger vetting of all who come into contact with children through their work.

I am NOT saying that Mr. Peter is an Ian Huntley, but one has to be careful when children are involved.

As for building a career at a reputable company, then as long as it doesn't involve contact with or influence over children what you do in your private life is irrelevent.

tonychang says:

so teachers who watch porn and shag tarts are potentially paedophiles????

Nicko says:

Let's not forget about judges, rock stars, police and priests - kiddie fiddlers all - lock 'em all up!

Anyone with a proven track record, as NJW says, should be kept well away from children but to even suggest watching porn movies makes you more of a menace than say watching 300 people die a violent death in an Arnie movie is total bollocks.

mr peter says:

NJW is a complete nutcase it seems. Running out of topics to have a go at me with he has stooped to bringing up the ultimate bogey man of children at risk. This idiot does not know me, what I do, or what I get up to. Just becasue someone is a regualr vistor to thailand does not mean they are going there to fuck prostitiutes, never mind kids. It seems NJW thinks that just because I prefer real thai music to crap and that I have sometimes fucked prostitiutes in the far east that I am, and others like me (most men on here) are in danger of molesting or murdering children. This sort of suggestion is as obscene as it is insane. But what can you expect from a man who is so obviously unballanced.Perhaps NJW's concern for kids is the result of his failure in bringing up his own daugher properly.-peter

TANAI KWAI says:

NJW:

"As for building a career at a reputable company, then as long as it doesn't involve contact with or influence over children what you do in your private life is irrelevent."

I now understand that you were making particular reference to jobs involving children. By extension, you are talking about anyone who is a parent as well.

I always imagined I would make a kind and decent father (not to mention a productive member of the workforce). But it sounds as though my youthful indiscretions (not to speak of my current and future proclivities for bargirls and hard-core pornography) suggest that I am potentially a menace to children.(!)

I presume that you would also conclude that a sex-addled person like myself/Ian Huntley is not in a position to determine whether he poses a danger to children or not -- much like a murderous drunk driver might have erroneously concluded that he was sober enough to drive.

Let it be known, then, that any of you scumbags who have ever fucked a prostitute or watched a vigorously executed sex act on film may not, under any circumstances, work with children.

But let's not stop there. If we can agree children are the most helpless members of society, then isn't the appropriate course of action to lock up those who have ever indulged in hookers or wet and nasty porn and throw away the key? If that make the world even 1% safer for children shouldn't we proceed with a zero tolerance policy? It seems irresponsible to permit people like myself to hover near or around children, undetected potential dangers that we are.

Am I going too far... or perhaps not far enough?

(...)

John U says:

Mr. Peter,

I can understand when your fingers go too far and they click "post" before you know it, only to look at what you posted, and think "Fuck me, I wish I hadn't said that. My brain wasn't in gear. Hope no fucker notices"

:<) But they always do.

So why don't you say "Guys I fucked up there. It's something I regret saying"

What the fuck my employers would think if they knew what I get up to is anybody's guess, but undoubtedly there would be a couple of holier than thou fuckers who would try to make a fuss.

Rather like the over exaggerated outrage being shown here.

Trouble is it would normally be a problem because no other employee would stand up and say "I fucking do that too". In my experience they all look with disgust as if they'd never had a wank looking at a porn video, or fucked a pro. in their lives.

So if only to give the Mr. Outrages a rest, please say "Sorry".

TANAI KWAI says:

John U.,

I think you meant to address that to NJW.

Yours,
Mr. Outrage

mossman says:

NJW, that's silly; you don't trust yourself, let alone others?

I'm not married, yet, and don't have any kids, although it seems likely to happen within the next ten years(procrastinator is my other name). I do have three beautifull nieces though, still very young and trusting, and treasure them! I want the best for them, and hope they will grow up strong and healthy enough to be able to make smart life decisions on their own, as it appears they will. As an adult(uncle) it is my responsibilty to give them a balanced outlook on life, without overdirecting or stigmatizing them for having their eyes open.

Screwing around w/ bargirls obviously also requires acting responsibly when I am with my married friends, female AND male.. I don't always want to make "waves", and I DO want get invited back again! These are the things that keep MY perspective in balance.

And I'd read about Ian Huntley; what a tragedy for the parents, not to mention the shattered trust throughout the community. From what I read there were warning signals, and he was living in an isolated social bubble, wasn't he. But beyond working and interacting within any community, and caring enough to do something that gives back to it in some way, there isn't much you can do that wouldn't put me in the same category as the bad guy. One can only hope the stranger at the other end of the line interprets the meaning of the word "responsible" roughly the same as you do.

Everybody has a separate, private life; if they didn't we'd all either be a little more insane, or in jail(and by some of your standards I would be!).

My question is: at what point should I start to jettision my small-to-medium sized porn collection? (...before the day I go out and get killed by a speeding cement truck...or die of natural causes...hopefully far in the future!) I can keep all the memories before that, but at some point I don't want to think about my family going through all my stuff and finding any or all of it, especially three nieces. Perhaps I could convert it into a format that will "self-destruct" after a certain number of years. Then again, if they don't have too many hang ups about sex at a mature enough age, my family/nieces might find it interesting from a "historical" point of view.
Ironically, I already have a cleaning girl who comes once a week($60/wk in the usa), and I had to "clean-house" before she came to do it!

mr peter says:

OK I'm sorry I took up reading NJW's posts again and even more so for replying t them, I promise to stop. Come back our kevin all is forgiven.-peter

Cog says:

For all in tents and porpoises...shouldn't we distinguish the genres of "hard-core porn". You gotta wonder in the back of your mind whether those that enjoy, MILF: Mothers Gone Bad (not my cup of tea) reveals a hidden Oedipus complex. What about gonzos and fetishes? I'm not trying to be judgmental, but surely one wouldn't want anyone who gets off watching, Dirty Donkey Does Dallas anywhere near humanity, much less children. Is this a hang-up?

I prefer watching "The Sensitive Guy's Guide to Love-making". Ladies...please give me a call.

Get a life says:

Obviously NJW has gone over the top on this. But I can't help wondering why so many of the regulars here seem concerned that their employers and or co-workers could find out about their activities with bar girls.

What are you ashamed of?

TANAI KWAI says:

There was someone who claimed to be from Norway who posted under the moniker "Get a life" but his English was lacking. I assume you are someone else.

"But I can't help wondering why so many of the regulars here seem concerned that their employers and or co-workers could find out about their activities with bar girls."

I am not sure to which regulars you refer. But if you don't appreciate that most of the world shames (usually in hypocritical fashion) those who engage or indulge in so-called prostitution you need to get out more.

Or are you just being sublimely sarcastic and making the point that prostitution is, indeed, shameful? Spit it out, man. Or not.

(...)

John U says:

Sorry Mr. Peter,

Quite correct. My previous post was meant for NJW as TK so rightly deduced.

Silly me. Fucked up again boys. But we can't be right all the time.

Can we? Can we?

For fuck's sake somebody stop arguing.

You know, I've just had a thought - rare I know - but I do my fair share of arguments in real life.

Maybe that's why I don't feel the need to hammer away at an argument in cyberspace that I feel I MUST WIN.

Is that it maybe? These guys are sad losers that can't get satisfaction in the real world so they have to keep at it where nobody can see them.

So they have to either win here or at least get a score draw.

They wait expectantly in front of their PC waiting for the next argument, and then frantically search the internet for some obscure piece of knowledge to bolster their argument.

I mean, I've looked at some of the names mentioned, and I think " Who the fuck's that?". Never heard of them.

Am I the only one? I've had this expensive education, I've interviewed roughly 5 cleints a day for 15 years and no fucker's ever mentioned some of the obscure pschologists, philosophers, and even painters who paint flowers that look like fannys.

Where do they get thsi knowledge from?

If it's from their lifetime experience they must be very old because it doesn't come up very often. Or they've had this education in that particular subject, and they just all happen to bump into each other on a web site mainly dedicated to shagging in Thailand.

What are the fucking chances of that happening?

John U says:

My 6th. para. above should have read "I do win my fair share of argumets"

Get a life says:

So, TK, not only am I a multiple personality, but it appears I am also Norwegian. I'm sorry, but I seem to have lost all knowledge of my native tongue, so I'll have to type in English. ;>)

"...... if you don't appreciate that most of the world shames (usually in hypocritical fashion) those who engage or indulge in so-called prostitution you need to get out more."

I am not talking about the rest of the world, I'm talking about the people who post here. Do you find it shameful? If not, why should you care what the hypocrites think?

Why "so-called?" Are you saying that paying someone to have sex with you is not prostitution? If it isn't, then what is it? Remember, these girls wouldn't look twice at us if we weren't paying them.

But then you do come from a nation that calls a spade a "non-gender specific hand operated earth moving device," so maybe you have a more politicaly correct term for the profession.

Interesting that you say that I need to get out more. Coming from someone who appears to spend all day researching and writing pseudo intellectual claptrap to post on here, and who knows how many other places, I feel I should respond with "Dear pot, yours kettle!"

As for NJW and Mr. Peter, maybe the two of you can continue you pathetic squabble by email, it is getting almost as boring as one of T.K.'s longer musings.

The Evil Paw Of The Three Eyed Monkey says:

Get a Life,

You seem to have missed the point that was raised by TK. He makes the extremely valid argument, in response to your earlier posting that most people who consort with prostitutes would be looked upon with scorn by employers and workmates (the genuineness of such scorn is a moot point). You seem to have completely misunderstood this in your response above - nobody has been backward in coming forward to fellow contributors on this site.

As for the squabble between Mr P and NJW, don't assume that others find it boring. I think it's been great entertainment but as you are NJW in disguise you're probably just a bit upset that Mr P is getting by the far the better of it.

Mossman - good point about your collection. I suggest that you notify a couple of (utterly trustworthy) mates about its whereabouts. My mate, Big Dave, knows that if he gets knocked down by a bus I'll be putting my tears temporarily on hold while I race round to his flat and remove his bumber bag of porn from the bottom of his wardrobe - it's what mates are for!! Your nieces will then be able to remember you as the upright, moral, non-judgemental guardian that you undoubtedly are!

mr peter says:

'As for NJW and Mr. Peter, maybe the two of you can continue you pathetic squabble by email, it is getting almost as boring as one of T.K.'s longer musings'

I have suggested it before and I do try to ignore the twat, but if you were being accused of the things only he could think up then you would have to respond as well.

Shamefull to engage in sex for money? come on surely nobody thinks like this in 2004, well perhaps religious nuts and a few men haters might still be living in the past. I don't think anyone on here is ashamed of going with bar girls, of course if they are cheating on a partner in so doing then perhaps they should be. Employers can go and fuck themselves it's nothing to do with them. Anyway, as I work somewhere that has only ever sacked women for sexual misconduct (4 ha ha), they are not worried about what I do on holiday.The women were 1 caught shagging on a desk 2 sexualy abusing a boy 3 sexually harrassing a man (christian -reported the bitch) and last one for emailing sexual material to co workers peter

The Evil Paw Of The Three Eyed Monkey says:

Just in case anyone gets the wrong idea about Big Dave's sexual preferences (a few contributors know his identity) my earlier posting should have read 'bumper bag of porn' and not 'bumber bag of porn'.

Get a life says:

Mr. P;
"Shamefull to engage in sex for money? come on surely nobody thinks like this in 2004"

Where, exactly, have I said this? If you took the trouble to actually read my posts, you will see that I am in fact saying the exact opposite!

I asked:
"What are you ashamed of?"
"Do you find it shameful? If not, why should you care what the hypocrites think?"
These are questions, not statements of opinion. Questions prompted by T.K.'s premise that we all need to hide the fact that we fuck prostitutes away, in case friends family and co-workers find out.

"....but if you were being accused of the things only he could think up then you would have to respond as well"

What accusations, or is your conscience troubling you?

"......one for emailing sexual material to co workers."

Which is different, I suppose, to using one's employers internet connection to post hard-core pornographic links onto a family orientated website where they could easily have been accessed by children.

There you go, an accusation!

TANAI KWAI says:

Get a life. No, really. Get one.

I didn't say you were the same Norwegian poster you literal-minded jackass.

"why should you care what the hypocrites think?"

Evil Paw has kindly translated this into Idiot for you above.

"Why 'so-called?' Are you saying that paying someone to have sex with you is not prostitution?"

I am saying that many who accept the title prostitute themselves less than many who do not.

"Remember, these girls wouldn't look twice at us if we weren't paying them."

I do not begrudge an ugly sap like yourself the pleasure of sleeping with a decent-looking hooker. But do not assume a kinship with me on the basis of our looks. You are an aging fat blob on a fixed income, are you not?

"But then you do come from a nation that calls a spade a 'non-gender specific hand operated earth moving device'..."

Yes, and your Mama's so fat when she opens her mouth kids jump in because they think she's a Moonwalk.

(For you non-Yanks: http://www.moonwalks.bigstep.com/generic.html?pid=16)

(...)

ADONIS says:

JEES. ive been away 2 days and look at it.!! god, i love this site. anyways, im off the fence on this one. Gloves on, ding ding. lol
seriously though, ive heard and seen some crap in my time,( chelsea fan 33 yrs man and boy) but im afraid this takes some licking, (pardon the bar girl pun).
well i can hold my hands up to indulging in the occaisional companion whilst bar propping in thailand,(soon to be an olympic sport im led to believe) also to perusing the occaisonal pornographic dvd or such like. so there is my admission over, now here are my personal details.
I am in the course of marrying one said 'companion' and bringing her to be my lawful wedded here in the uk, to live with myself and my 10 yr old son, whom incedently, i have sole custody over as social services and the courts deemed me to be the far better option( although i did omit to owning a porno dvd when giving my statement to court, bugger is that perjury?) when it came to my son's well being. wow what a mixing pot of seediness and temptation. but wait, there is more! im just about to start my training to be a primary school teacher. dang! NOW I AM A RISK! bollocks, big fat, hairy sweaty, bollocks. Who the hell gives a shit what their employers might think, my boss knows exactly what i went to thailand for and is insanely jealous, he thinks he is paying me too much,bastard!!, as for not letting someone' such as myself' be in charge of kiddleywhiches blah blah utter bollocks. I am a great father, will be a great teacher but am GREATLY confused why this person who obviously has serious sexual hang-ups, feels the need to stereo-type all sex loving, appreciators of the oldest profession in the world with 'potential IAN HUNTLEY' tags!!
i feel a bit faint! water someone??

More Lamb says:

I think that I have finally worked it out after reading this latest sorry trail of guff and nonsense.

Mr Peter, I know what your problem is (I don't think that problem is probably the right word, but I'm struggling to think of a better one)

Mr Peter, women scare you .... you are frightened of them ... a woman that you would have to charm into your bed makes you reach for the pampers .... paying them is so much easier isn't it.

That is why you have a Jintara fixation .... for you, and for most other men, she is unobtainable .. therefore, failure to bed her is a foregone conclusion that no one can argue with, and your failure to capture/captivate/evengetnoticed is then universally acceptable.

Mr Peter, you are no danger to any school-girl, all they would have to do is say 'boo' and you would go to pieces so quickly that the only threat would be shrapnel.

Get a life says:

Dear, dear, T.K. trying so hard to be all things to all men, but your toys have come out of the pram now.

"I am saying that many who accept the title prostitute themselves less than many who do not"

Can we have this in English please?

"I do not begrudge an ugly sap like yourself the pleasure of sleeping with a decent-looking hooker. But do not assume a kinship with me on the basis of our looks. You are an aging fat blob on a fixed income, are you not?"

Which accurately describes all the regulars here. BTW, if you are such a fine example of male beauty, why do you have to pay for it?

I wish you well in your new found freindship with Mr. Pervert ( see, I can think up pathetic word plays too), you are both made for each other.

mr peter says:

More lamb, what sort of a wanky alter ego is that. I believe this is the first appearance of this name, but not of course the poster who now poses as a psycho anaylst. First I am a threat to kids because I have fucked prozzies, now I am supposed to have a fixation about a singer that has nothing to do with her singing. I like Mike Piromporn a lot as well, hey maybe I am bi sexual that's one I've not been accused of yet. Or maybe I hate my father and really want to be a ladyboy. Well at least it's entertaining and gives me a good laugh. But please change the name again, how about 'fucked up dad'-peter

TANAI KWAI says:

G.A.L.,

Question: "You are an aging fat blob on a fixed income, are you not?"

Your Answer: Which accurately describes all the regulars here. (READ: Yes, I am a poor, pasty-faced lardass who has no hope of attracting a woman without a fistful of greasy bills handy, and I fervently hope the rest of you are as well.)

(read some more posts before you draw too many conclusions about who your pen pals are)

ADONIS says:

GET A LIFE.

aging, fat blob on a fixed income! btw if you are such an example of male beauty, why do you have to pay for it??
well get a life, as i now class myself as a regular here i resent the aging fat blob remark. true am of fixed income in my day job, but coming nicely onto the male beauty remark, i am also a male escort, who shock horror, charges women a princely some to sleep with them. immoral? maybe. didnt mention this in previous post july 21st because was not relevant, but now i feel it is. ok, i wont be carrying on with this 'sideline' once married, but i find it useful in saving for my impending wedding. which is quite ironic when you think of this in the grand scheme of things. so GET A LIFE, if you feel the need of some real male beauty to escort you for the evening gimme a call and ill do you a discount!! im sure you are thinking yeh, right you are an escort, go to www.ukescorts.com. alternatively if you just want to drool at my positively beautiful semi-naked body go to www.thailandfriends.com/adonisuk
enjoy people.
will be posting an interesting piece in yesterdays sun when i have the time!!

Not who you think. says:

Once more he thinks that anyone who knows him for what he is must be the same person.......WRONG!!!!!!!! But then, as his ego is so fragile it is only what can be expected.

Still, as he said, he has been posting on Thai related boards for 8 years, and they have all chucked him off, except this one.

At last, Mr Peter, John Bond, Thai 3 and all the other psuedonyms you have used over the years, you have found a site full of like minded individuals.

Enjoy.

mr peter says:

Can someone explain why people have a need to play this childish game of pretending to be someone else all the time. For myself I have only ever posted here under one name, other forums are another matter but even then only using one other name. I am sure JB will be pretty surprised to see himself mentioned here, but that's not me as I am not married and do not live in thailand. BTW I believe that is the guys real name so it's completely unacceptable to mention him on here esp I don't think he posts here at all. It would not be so bad if the multiple named moron ever posted anything to do with the thread. At least it gives him something to do and takes his mind of the tragc events in his sad life-peter

This time it is who you think. says:

" BTW I believe that is the guys real name so it's completely unacceptable to mention him on here "

So why did you use his name to post on Pattayapages?

One example, posted by 'John bond':
"I don't think anyone suggested thai-UK should be discussing bar girls but I have never seen anywhere where it's written they don't allow it. My comments were about their attitude, not to specific topics but more the way a few bully boys seem to run the board. Recently they were most put out when a very intelligent and knowledgeable thai woman knew more about telecommunications in thailand than they did, very ammusing as it titles itself as a board for 'thais their friends and family' It's a pity more thais don't post there but I expect they are in the kitchen cooking while know it all hubby is looking for things to be offended by on the board.
They are hypocrites in the sense that if it comes up, any suggestion that a good proportion are married to BG's (who cares) is treated as negative and not true. I feel sorrry for some of the girls who got landed with one or two of them. Only a minority of course but they ruin the board IMO, still good for visa info though, but thats about it. Their problem might have something to do with weak moderation, some who are meant to be moderating large areas sometimes don't even look at the board for weeks on end. Definately holier than thou as crackpot originally said.-peter "

Seems awfully familiar, doesn't it?
See http://www.pattayatalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=5440&hl=

ADONIS says:

THE SUN JULY 20TH 2004
couldnt get a link for this so have had to type.

CHRIS MAYNARD married the oriental girl of his dreams a month after meeting her on the internet. But in wasnt long before she left the 38 yr old from ashford in kent, after landing him with a string of debts.
Chris met 22yr old Sureerat Wachirarat on dating website friendfinder.com and was smitten when he saw her picture.
he says "ive always liked oriental ladies and she bowled me over"
within weeks Chris, who works in a baking factory, declared his love for the girl he knew online as 'sweet thai'.
chris says "we talked about me going over to see her in Thailand and she said i should call her brother-in-law first.
"he was british and living with Sureerats sister in poole in dorset.
"her brother in law told me she was a lovely girl and that i'd better get out to see her quickly as ther were other men interested. i proposed to her in an emailright away and she said yes."
In june last year, just one month after meeting her online, chris travelled to Bangkok to meet his fiancee in person and marry her - all within one week.
At first it was wedded bliss back in the uk. though she spoke only a little english,the pair communicated well and made love everyday.
but soon chris's new wife began making financial demands on him.
he says "we travelled back to thailand last year for the traditional wedding. i had to produce a £1500 dowry for her parents and remortgaged my house to pay for the trip, which cost £6000."
two months later she asked chris for £500 to send home to her father to pay for hospital treatment. then she said she had to find £1000 to contribute towards a new truck the family needed back home.
the marriage hit the rocks four months ago after sureerat tried to persuade him to move to thailand. she said she had to support her family. he refused and she moved out and is now living with her sister.
Devastated Chris says "my solicitor tells me i might have to pay yet more money in a divorce settlement.
"i never owed anyone a penny before, now ive got about £6000 to pay off. I want to warn british men to think twice about marrying a thai girl on the internet-they stand to lose a lot."

METHINKS HE NEVER VISITED THE MANGO SAUCE SITE. i did
wonder how the hell a month
after meeting her he managed to get her back so soon, though no mention of difficulties/ease of visa attainment.it was nice to see he didnt tar all the girls with the same brush, for " i want to warn british men to think twice about marrying a thai girl they meet on the internet" i read, internet a no no, but bar girls, beach walkers, ladies of ill repute all ok!! lol As you were chaps!!

mr peter says:

To it's always who I know it is, I have never posted on the site you refer to so run back to the play pen and try and dig up something a bit better. Strange that someone as anti prostitution as yourself spends so much time drooling over posts concerning Pattaya, I'm sure it's just so you can disaprove. Wiil you ever post something to do with the topic? probably when cheap sex in pattaya or I met my wife in a beer bar ever turn up.-peter

Isabel II says:

Funny that I was accused of being someone else because my style was similar to hers, yet Mr. Peter denies it. He even signed his name, the twerp!

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

Hi, sweetie. Thought you were outa here? You're hooked by how I dominated you naturally, aren't you? C'mon, admit it.

We're pleased you finally found some real men in Thailand to hang with. Keep posting.

mossman says:

Evil Paw,

Thanks for your suggestion about what to do with my porno collection before any one who cares finds it:

"You [should] notify a couple of (utterly trustworthy) mates about its whereabouts. My mate, Big Dave, knows that if he gets knocked down by a bus I'll be putting my tears temporarily on hold while I race round to his flat and remove his bumper bag of porn from the bottom of his wardrobe - it's what mates are for!!"

Now if I can just decide which of my mates to trust with this "hot" stuff, before it's too late! It may come down to an e-mail, if I procrastinate too long.

"Hi Sven, you remember me, right? I'm over in the NE now. Say, could you hop on a jet and get on over to my place, destroy all my porno?(you can keep the one with the fat chick) Right, right, third house on the left, keys' under the mat, yeah, okay and go into my bedroom closet.
Okay, now, in the third drawer...cough!
Uum...in..the...third...drawer..in......the.....back.....of COUGH, cough, hack, aarrrgggh!

[Poof.....curtain drops with a bang!]

It's tough to commit so much to memory, and give away the rest, but your suggestion is interesting. Oh, the shame! Guess I'll die with a smile on my face.

Shiva Please Go Away says:

Tanai Kwai, can you please ask one of your multiple personality disorders, in particular Ubangime, to please stop stalking me?

I only post under Isabel II or as Shiva in my last post on the farang girls thread. I did not post the previous Isabel II post at 7:58 p.m. on this thread.

That would be ....... you maybe?

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

Paying rather close attention to a blog we've deserted, aren't we? Welcome home.

I am not TK, although we respect each-other immensely (winky). I might write a book.

We have trouble telling the various Isabels apart. They spell their names the same way, and none of them has one shred of anything interesting to say.

noob says:

Ok . it is my first post on mangosauce . Here is the deal . On my first flight to Bankgok to pay a visit to a friend of mine i met a young beautifull girl who was a friend of his wife , she is a babysitter . On the first date we went out and back to my hotel she literally jumps on me (wow ) . Just to make it short ,( surprise, surprise ) she was virgin (oh nooo) . i really like her , we keep in contact every day and i m coming back to LOS to see her . Up to now no money requests, she calls me more often than i do ( is it really so cheap international calls from Thailand ? ) but because i am mangosauce schooled i am warned . I am posting looking for suggestion or similar storyies to understand what to think cause i am still confused .Thx guys.

TANAI KWAI says:

Noob,

It is much cheaper to call into Thailand than out.

You need to grill your friend extensively about her past.

But if you are a young, good-looking guy, she may have just fallen in love -- especially if she really was a virgin.

(sounds a bit suspect but who knows?)

Cog says:

"On the first date we went out and back to my hotel she literally jumps on me (wow )."

On the first fuckin' date? Errr...sumthin' ain't right.

noob says:

I am 30 , not bad i guess . My friend knows this girl very well , she has been doing the babysitter for 12 years and now she is 26 . i think she was real virgin : it took me a couple of times to make my way through it plus she did not even know how to make a blow job ( that 's sad ) . But may i be damned if i understand why a girl on her first date should behave like that . When i asked she told me merely because she likes me and my friend assured her wife ( her friend ) that i am very good guy ( what the hell does it mean ??? ) . This place is really the opposite the world i knew , i cannot undestand it but i love it . Bye

Cog says:

"My friend knows this girl very well , she has been doing the babysitter for 12 years and now she is 26."

WTF?? Shorely shome mishtake? The man's gotta be pissed drunk!

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

Surely not a native English speaker. "...she did not even know how to make a blow job..." Two cups flour, one cup sugar, two eggs...

The girl sounds a little fishy to me, too. A baby sitter with enough money not to ask for any, makes frequent international calls, apparently good enough English to talk during those calls, etc.

Slow down, Noob, and wear a seat belt. Nothing wrong with liking one of these girls, many of us do. Read the rest of the blog. However, keep your eyes OPEN, and don't make any commitments until you understand her, her culture, and her country a little better. Don't become a statistic.

Cog says:

BTW, having a tight pussy and being fellatio-challenged doesn't necessarily mean a girl is a virgin. If you can show me a picture of her intact hymen prior to intercourse, I'll cease my doubts (I'd prefer JPEG or GIF).

Here's a quick and often redundant footnote: Hypocrisy aside, the puritanical aspects of Thai culture frowns upon Thai women jumping in bed prior to marriage, much less on the first friggin' date. I can bet she's been fucked before. However, that doesn't in any way mean you shouldn't be able to have a stable and flourishing relationship with this girl...once you've sobered up, that is.

Choak dee.

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

First you try to charm the guy into sending you a picture of his GF's pussy (laudable idea, by the way), then you ruin our chances of ever seeing it by telling the guy to sober up! GET THE PICTURE FIRST NEXT TIME! :)

More Lamb says:

Mr Peter

There is absolutely no need to psychoanalyse you, your neuroses are in plain view for all to read at leisure.... requires very little effort.

P.S. This is the only alias name I have used in here (ok, second, but the other one was on a different topic), I have used others in other places, but only ever one in each site... I too noticed your laughable attempt of pretending to be J Bond in pattayapages and still ending your posts with "-peter" ..... it isn't rocket science you know.

mr peter says:

I see you have no explanation for posting under multiple names on this site, are you ashamed of your previous posts perhaps. I have no knowledge of any postings on the site you refer to, maybe it was you pretending to be me as you seem so intent on multiple name games, nothing would surprise me. Perhaps you could explain why you think your silly comments about me have any relation to the topic of this thread, or why you think they could be of the slightest interest to anyone here? Who would have thought my detestation of the wanker club -
www.thailand-uk.com would have resulted in being harrassed by such an obvious phsyco as yourself , and over such a long time. Interesting but worrying-peter

Cog says:

"GET THE PICTURE FIRST NEXT TIME!"

Procure pussy pic first. Got it!

mr peter says:

Isabel, if you could still check the archives you would see that I was the only person who questioned the link between you and the other Isabel. I pointed out to David that you were american, claimed to be intelligent and that if you were attracting guys half your age that they would be about 15, all unlikely characteristics for Isabel I. Even our kev acknowledged this in an email to me. I would indeed be a 'twerp' if I were posting under one name and signing as another, but I assure you I am not. You don't own a cat do you?-peter

More Lamb says:

Okey Dokey Petie

I'll make it easy for you .... and you don't have to pay me (winky).... I posted one itty bitty comment on the Thai music topic in here using the name Maurice Ravel in the vain hope that you would get the irony involved ... a vain attempt at getting some latent humour out of you.

I was wrong ..... you haven't got any.

mr peter says:

Oh I'd forgotten that one, you have more names than the Devil it seems. Still no explantion for the silly games I see. No point asking if you have a cat, it would have run off to get away from you just life everyone else. Bye bye little boy-peter

More Lamb says:

As I said Peter your neuroses are on public display 24/7.

I could be the one you are thinking of ... or I could be someone dangling a large red herring.

That's the problem when the poster manages to remember not to sign their real name under an assumed identity. (winky)

Dr. Frasier Crane says:

My services are available to any who think they need to be pshco-analysed. Some cases of deniel are so fascinating, I may even offer them free of charge!

One of the problems we have to deal with in multiple personality situations is that one personality refuses to acknowledge the exsistence of another. This certainly seems to be the case with Mr. Peter.

As for NJW/Get a life, I think he is just taking the piss, as Daphne, my English sister-in-law, would say.

Tanai Kwai? His problems will pass when puberty kicks in.

Did I say Shiva Already? says:

Oh my goodness, Mr. Peter, I do have a cat, and yes, she does go by the name Isabel, but I had no idea those website design classes she was taking while I was away would result in such delinquent antics such as what you mentioned!

But yes, she has run off with the very dominating, natural male cat next door, and I do think she likes herring, I've never asked her, but, I had no idea that .......

Wait a minute ... are you WATCHING me, Mr. Peter?

mr peter says:

You are wrong Mr Doctor, I have never posted under another name on this forum, but others routinely do thinking it's amusing, clever or original. It appears to satisfy some kind of need and gives them a kick. NJW and his minions are obviously in need of your help, what would you prescribe from the medicine chest, how about heavy dosages of prosac as this sort of behaviour must spring from depression giving rise to wanker club syndrom. Stand by for some new names, the wanker club replicates faster than a virus.-peter

The Evil Paw Of The Three Eyed Monkey says:

Why don't people leave Mr P alone? His postings have been great for the last couple of months - particularly his brilliant double act (with David) which destroyed Kevin and Isobel.

If you upset him, he might go back to posting about Thai music - and that would be an unmitigated disaster.

Keep fighting the good fight, Mr P - even Chopper Harris is in your corner.

mr peter says:

Thanks for the comments mr Paw, but I don't take it all too personally after all NJW and his minions seem to despise lots of other things besides me, especially people having fun and americans of course. In case anyone missed one of his nastier, might I say racist outbursts:

'Im sure that were I to meet a real American that I would like them. But the chances of me doing that are vitually non-existant, as your lot killed most of them and imprisoned the survivors on reservations!

Posted by NJW | May 26, 2004 03:40 PM

What a charmer!-peter

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

The only reason Chopper Harris would be in any corner is that he can't find his way out.

Cog says:

Chelsea didn't give him corner kicks then?

Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. says:

Mr? Peter, you think that the wholesale genocide carried out on the Native American population can be treated so lightly? You think that reminding people of it is rascist?

What are your opinions on the Holocaust? One can only assume that you feel that Hitler was a nice guy, just misunderstood, and the Jews deserved it anyway!

TANAI KWAI says:

Disinter your head from your ass,

It would be instructive for you to read my response to NJW in that thread (or, if you are NJW, read it again).

(...)

Dr. Frasier Crane. says:

"I have never posted under another name on this forum"

Maybe not, but you seem to use a different persona whichever forum you are on, and then later deny their exsistance.

You know this, as at first you denied using other names, then when confronted with the proof changed that denial into the statement I quote above.

Selective memory loss is a serious symptom. Are you seeing anyone about it?

Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. says:

"Tanai Kwai? His problems will pass when puberty kicks in."

QED

ADONIS says:

UBANGI

any chance you can forward the full recipe for 'making a blow job' as i do believe i can make a bloody fortune here in good ol' blighty.
I think its what has been needed for a damn long time. Obviously you will be credited with the recipe but will repackaged and named accordingly!!
Any ideas as to a name??
my lawyers will call to sort out the legalities, lots for me, less for you.

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

Speaking as a "hyphenated American" (somebody was complaining about that in another thread): When the genocide of the indigenous Americans was going on, my family was in Europe, being starved and discriminated against for being poor. Thus, while I disagree with genocide in all its repugnant permutations, I take no responsibility for its occurence or course in the US. The majority of us feel this way. Nice way to try to take a debate point, though.

By the way, we didn't own any slaves either. If my grandfather's stories are to be believed, WE were the ones who lived like slaves.

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

Adonis, sorry. Unfortunately that recipe is only passed by oral tradition, and I can thus only pass along the parts I can deduce by experience. You undoubtedly are aware of these same ingredients.

ADONIS says:

BUGGER!!
thought i was on a dead cert winner there! cheers anyway, UBANGI

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

I make a pretty mean cold potato salad, though...

Cog says:

^...an orgasmic gastronomical experience, no doubt. :-)

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

What with all that mayonnaise and all!

More Lamb says:

Too salty.......

try a nice Bernaise Sauce instead ... the tarragon really sets it off and a stroke of vinegar helps to stop the eggs from getting bruised ;)

TANAI KWAI says:

Multiplicitous Jackasses:

Pick a name.

Stick with it.

Without some kind of context, your comments are excruciating. I think it was Greg who compared it to running into a room, squeezing out some flatulence, and dashing out again. What fun. The exception is when a fake name is used in an entertaining or at least vaguely amusing manner. But NJW and the other turgid multi-posters (charitably assuming they are not all NJW) are failing miserably to justify one identity let alone several.

I believe that some who post here are so delicate of constitution, with egos so fragile, that they cannot bear the humiliation of having even their cyber-identity assaulted. (Look at how they breathlessly respond, compelled to retort though having nothing whatever worthwhile to say.) Instead they must frantically leap from name to name to avoid becoming too invested in an identity that too closely resembles the real one in which they are trapped. They genuinely fear becoming easy targets of scorn by betraying too many personal details, and thus exposing their unhappiness, their hypocrisy, their prejudices, their dead-end existence... Once the clever bastards of Mangsauce connect the dots and reveal the tortured sap for what he is, the burden of existing here under a single (albeit anonymous) marker, is simply too great to bear.

And so to boost his emotional reserves, such a poster sets his jaw and devises a new but invariably tedious handle. He then proceeds either (i) to praise his other identities, (ii) to refer to these identities casually as if to bolster their verisimilitude and separate existence; and (iii) to continue slagging in the same artless and workmanlike manner as his other voices.

In the past we have had some amusing ersatz names and banter but this crop has seriously degraded the level of discourse here. Mr. Peter, perhaps there is a way to wind this down in the hope of something marginally interesting filling the void.(?)

(for others who also despair, I suspect Saint David's full-fledged return will attract the talent back shortly)

Cog says:

I've read that falangs have a habit of pursuing periods of intense trials and tribulations with each other only to eventually be rewarded with mutual respect and understanding.
.
.
.
.
.
Okaaaay....that's a stupid idea.
How about just holding hands and singing kum-ba-ya?

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

TK:

I have freely admitted posting under more than just this moniker before. The reason is quite simple, really, and has nothing to do with frailty of ego, tortured existances, or being trapped in an unsatisfactory identity here in meatspace.

If Ubangi mercilessly tears a new asshole into some idiot who richly deserves one, how will he be received if he offers a thoughtful comment (let alone gentle, encouragement) that he wants taken more seriously?

Some things are done for effect, and we don't all share your apparent sensitivity to anything not hyper-honest. Further, it is abundantly clear that whomever we are talking (typing) to in a blog, regardless of whether they have one or a hundred names, is not being totally truthful anyway, or at least we have no reason to believe that they are. Why not take advantage of this and use it for rhetorical advantage?

I certainly see the viewpoint that a person should own up for his words, and I have tried to do that in other threads. However, I still believe that using multiple avatars gives a poster the option of revealing different parts of his true personality without having his screen name(s) taint the attempt.

I've been considering giving this moniker up, anyway. I invented it specifically to attack Kevin/Isabel/Shiva/Beak/Godzilla, and it doesn't serve well for any other application. Stay tuned, your post above might just persuade me to do so. There's a lot of truth in it.

I try not to think of myself as so transparent as NJW/GAL, etc. However, maybe I'm fooling myself, and you'd like to "out" my other avatar(s) if you care that much?

How 'bout this: Rather than wait for David's triumphant return, why don't we all tone down the personal attacks on each-other and raise the level of discourse ourselves? Do we really all need our knuckes rapped with the ruler?

mr peter says:

Excellent post TK and I could not agree more. However Ubnagi whats is name is a bit of an exception as at least he posts interesting and relevant stuff. Most multiples though just seem to consist of snide remarks and hardly ever seem to have any sensible contribution to the original topic. Sadly it seems a log in system will not work with moveable type software, so we should just ignore the idiots but I know I am guilty of not doing this-peter

Multiplicitous Jackasses says:

So, what you are all really saying is that whilst it is perfectly ok for you (especially the verbose Tanai Kwai) to belittle anyone who dares to express an opinion with which you vaguely disagree, for others to do the same to you is not to be tolerated.

One only has to read through most of the threads here to see examples of how fond Tanai Kwai and his ilk are of puffing up their self importance and showing off their supposed education and erudition (isn't Google wonderful), whilst attempting humiliate those who do not bow down and worship at the shrine of their intellect.

Truth is, there is more intellectual ability and merit in an average kindergarten then is to be found here.

So, unable to bear the thought that someone might not like him, Tanai Kwai does what any small child does when he fails to get his own way......"Mommy! Make the nasty boy stop! Tell him to give ME the toy!"

(Mommy being, in this case, David.)

More Lamb says:

Personal note.

I am more than happy to stick with this particular identity in this place .... I really can't be arsed with playing mind games...... (and funnily enough I do like lamb, a vastly underrated meat in asia IMO)

Isn't it about time the 'group' started posting something about the original statement.

If you start a relationship with a partner of your own nationality in your own country and that country is the UK, the chances of your partner having a sick buffalo are fairly slim (unless she is from Somerset) .... the chances of her having a granny with a debilitating disease are more likely, but probably wont be mentioned too early in the relationship.

However, having a sick granny in the 'developed' world is usually not a problem ... NHS .... insurance ... etc etc .... not the same story in other places.

Where exactly do you draw the line? ..... should a line be drawn in the first place?

mr peter says:

TK asked 'Mr. Peter, perhaps there is a way to wind this down in the hope of something marginally interesting filling the void.(?)'

Yes the only way is to strictly ignore the types you have highlighted which is what I intend to do now. Starved of any replies they tend to get bored and frustrated and eventually lessen the crap posts. You have to have a certain amount of sympathy with a certain someone due to the sadness which has occured in his life (if to be believed). But like an annoying drunk there comes time to avoid their pointless and vitriolic banter no matter what excusues they might have. The only other way is to have some sort of rule system and moderation, but I don't think David would be for that one.-peter

TANAI KWAI says:

I feel compelled to note that Unimaginative Jackasses has mangled the meaning of my post:

I would not be in favor of lobbying David to change a thing about this site. I only make the point that regular infusions of his creativity seem to engender more interesting posts and leave less room for idle stupidity as has been demonstrated by the pussy a few posts above.

(don't hate... congratulate)

Prorogue says:

I'd stick around here just for TK and David's posts. You never lose your Mangopost, you just lose your turn!

Pro.

TANAI KWAI says:

Pro,

Humbling praise to be mentioned with the likes of our host.

Having said that, I must give credit where it's due. The man who originated (or at least popularized) the phrase "In Thailand, you never lose your girl, you only lose your turn," was a gentleman I used to work with who posts here under the moniker "YOUKNOWWHO."

His website can be found at www.bangkokrules.net.

(cheers)

TANAI KWAI says:

Sorry, one last point raised by Idle Jackasses has caused me to search my memory banks in vain...

"So, what you are all really saying is that whilst it is perfectly ok for you (especially the verbose Tanai Kwai) to belittle anyone who dares to express an opinion with which you vaguely disagree, for others to do the same to you is not to be tolerated."

I do not believe you can identify even one -- not one -- instance where someone made a good-faith argument that I unjustly belittled. There are many instances, however, when some extremist imbecile shot his mouth off and I responded sharply and clearly, subsequently causing the little bitch to retreat behind a new identity (see above).

So put up, bitch. I'll make it even easier. Name an opinion I've voiced on a legitimate topic of discussion with which you disagree.

(if you can't take it don't dish it)

mossman says:

Oooohh...Mexico!

"He then proceeds either (i) to praise his other identities, (ii) to refer to these identities casually as if to bolster their verisimilitude and separate existence; and (iii) to continue slagging in the same...workmanlike manner as his other voices."

Well... they say the best defense is a good offense!

My suspicion started before the "Georgia O'Keefe" reference, continued with the "Krispy Kremes Donut," response, then using the "Mexican" question(you were talking to yourself, Si?) to brilliantly sidetract us, I would say...the Blue Ribbon for the best "fake-name/alter-ego" goes to............

Tanai Kwai and Cog.

Now read the two of them together(several threads), and tell me if I'm wrong.
Cog's definitely not Thai; too any "I'm gonna(s)." And he's too convenient; popping up at just the right time to ask an irked or curious question in response to, anticipation of, or prior to one TK's insights, like a foil, well before any of the predictable agonists can reply! And TK, you said you were "SO BORED", didn't you? So it seems logical, to me, you would create "Cog" to move things along at a pace more to your liking(?).

I don't have the technical skills, unfortunately, to prove it, but I would say judging from your writing cadence and very familiar idioms(even when he adds the "hood" accent it seems faked), my guess is that you and Cog are one and the same.

"The exception is when a fake name is used in an entertaining or at least vaguely amusing manner."

Well done!!!

TANAI KWAI says:

Moss,

I tried this kind of sleuthing myself once, with disastrous results as this thread reveals:

http://www.mangosauce.com/archives/000035.html

(You missed one other similar reference when I mentioned Pygmalion in a post to JDMAN and Cog riffed on Eliza Doolittle a few days later -- but I'm not Cog)

mossman says:

TK,

"I tried this kind of sleuthing myself once, with disastrous results as this thread reveals; http://www.mangosauce.com/archives/000035.html"

Yep, I read that thread awhile back. Great insults! Plus somebody mentioned a devious cunt named Jah-jah. My first posts and (only) alter-ego post are there.

"...but I'm not Cog." Should I tell Cog that?

Ahhh, but I thought Isabel II was a Brit running a web site, so...Bob's your Uncle.

Pat Paulsen=Ravi Shankar?

Who am we?

Ravi Shankar says:

"Colors blind people's eyes,
sounds deafen their ears;
flavors spoil people's palates,
the chase and the hunt
craze people's minds;
goods hard to obtain
make people's actions harmful.
Therefore sages work for the middle
and not the eyes,
leaving the latter and taking the former."

- from the Tao Te Ching

l33t w4nk3r says:

not really a comment on the thread but with all the real spam MS (was that over 100 for drugs and gambling yesterday?) gets and with all this dual / multiple identity stuff going on maybe it is time to install a comments plugin? there are loads for mt designed to fight spam and many of those have other aspects like login requirements and word blacklisting. mtblacklist is good, but doesn't include login stuff. the mt forums has a whole area about this...

http://www.movabletype.org/support/index.php?s=fb4b454bd7290d77a200c8bd240d92be&act=SF&f=27

if you dont know how to install stuff in cgi / perl then you might want to use typekey its pretty good

http://www.typekey.com/

but theres loads out there im sure.

at least then "running into a room, squeezing out some flatulence, and dashing out again" might leave people finding they can't get back in.

just my 2c.

Farangutan says:

my 2c - simply disable the comments (even if for just a while) or delete anything not relating to the story. I come here to read David's writing, not the off-topic pseudo intellectual pissing contests and hate-mongering that every story ends up being ruined with in the comments section.

Take this page for example - 90% of the comments here are just plain shit (yeah yeah...including this one) and have nothing to do with the topic at all.

(and yes I'm aware of the irony that if the comments were turned off I wouldn't have been able to post this ;)

MS never used to be like this. Once again, the few have ruined it for the many :(

TANAI KWAI says:

Farangutan,

If David ever announced a normative goal that the comments sections closely track the daily topic I would do my part. If he asked me to fuck off because he felt as though I was "ruining" the site I would comply. That he generally declines to tell people what, why and how to post I take to mean he at least tolerates our contributions, if not necessarily enjoying or welcoming all of them.

(cheers)

l33t w4nk3r says:

i dont think shutting down comments will do anything really. people will either wait and then carry on (same same) or go and never come back (dead site).

it would be interesting to see what would happen if david did ask for comments to be relative (relative as possible) to subject but thats his call.

Combover says:

Farangutan:

"I come here to read David's writing, not the off-topic pseudo intellectual pissing contests and hate-mongering that every story ends up being ruined with in the comments section".

Agreed. Though I also enjoy the comments when the pissing contests are on-topic, succinct, non-groundhog-day-esque or just a load of good natured bollocks with a few amusing war stories thrown in for good measure.

But this is all starting to put me off.

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

If David had wanted this to be something other than an open blog, he would have made it so. He just finished defending it against people who would shut it down because they did not like the opinions expressed here. Now we have some of the regulars wanting to shut off and edit comments?

I'm guessing that a quick scan of other threads would pick out cases where posters in this thread who are sniffing at the pissing contests have contributed streams of their own. Your piss don't stink?

I'll give you a little clue: The comments section has a gray background (at least on my screen), and it starts with a bold-faced word spelled like this: C-O-M-M-E-N-T-S. If you really consider people's comments to be detracting from your enjoyment of the site, stop reading when the white background runs out, and don't post. You'll be happy, and everybody else will be happier, too.

mr peter says:

I was told that around 20% of the posts get deleted anyway so don't lets think there is no editing at all going on. Even allowing for the crazy medicine chest and invites to throw your money away gambling this still seems to leave quite a lot of other material which gets the chop, I expect just as well.-peter

Combover says:

Ubangi - you are undoubtedly amongst the most guilty of the charges laid above. And you know it. Perhaps a shade of humility would not go amiss.

I won't deny that I have on one or two occasions been drawn into urinating on bonfires stoked by others - but given that these people turned out to be members of the Kevin/Isabel/Baek axis of evil I don't feel too bad. I shall endeavour not to do it again.

I'm not advocating that David removing any comments. That would be far too painful a job for the poor lad.

But a little focus, bevity and self censorship on the part of yourself and a small number of significant others would make lots of other readers happy.

Quality not quantity please!

Isabel II says:

Ok, this commentary about multiple identities has pulled me back out of the woodwork.

For the record, I have only ever posted under Isabel II, and the various Shivas. Again, repeat, I am NOT part of the original kevin/Isobel dual so please stop associating my monikers with theirs. One of the postings on this blog that used my moniker Isabel II was actually not posted by me (the one calling Mr. Peter a twerp; I cant' really ascertain the validity of that statement yet). When I posted under Shiva, I believed it was transparently clear who was really posting. No one has complained, so I think it was clear.

But if I had to bet my money on one of the most multiplicitious posters, I'd say it was the Ubangi/Tanai Kwai/Cog axis of evil. And those are just the ones that are suspect. I'm even starting to wonder if this "team" also includes Greg. I just only started visiting this site on the thread that was ostensibly about farang women, but I did a little backchecking and noticed Greg manages the IP for this site or something or other. Anyway, he seems "involved" but suspiciously quiet. And will you please cut the charade about "David" coming back. Anyone can post an article under a psuedonym, and we all know it is most likely to be one of you.

Also, further up on this thread, Ubangi knows that I had visited this site before I posted. How did you know that, my little dearest? Do you miss me?

Ubangi, don't change your moniker, just come clean about who you are. This site is fun, but I think too many misplaced antics makes people wonder if they are just talking to one other schmuck alone in his room.

So, who are you Ubangi? Seems like you've been threatening to tell us. And I don't mean the hyphenated American thing, I mean the aka thing.

gotta go for a couple of days, will be back.

Three Billy Goats Gruff says:

If you complain about other forums deleting your posts because the mods don't like them, how can you advocate this one doing the same to posts you don't like? Double standards, surely.

Anyway, the posts that have got everyone so hot under the coller are so obviously from a troll, or trolls, why bother responding to them at all. One person in particular has repeatedly said that he will ignore future comments from the troll, yet every time the troll posts he has to respond! This only feeds the troll and makes you look foolish!

The troll is having 'fun'. If you get angry, the troll has more fun. If your replies to the troll get more inchorent from your anger and deteriorate into insults, then he has more fun.

The troll's aim is to make you all angry with him; to make you waste you time responding to him. It doesn't matter what you say. You will not convince the troll that you are right. You will certainly not make the troll lose his temper, as he has succeeded in doing to several of you. The troll will just post something more outrageous to get even more of a rise out of you. It's what he enjoys, it's why he's doing it.

Ignore the troll. Being ignored is what the troll hates most. Being ignored is no fun. Ignore the troll and he will go and play his game elsewhere.

Regular internet uses know this. I'm surprised you lot don't have more savvy.

N.B. I have used the singular male pronoun when referring to the troll, but of course there could easily be more than one, and he/she/they could be either gender.

Pat Paulsen (hic..!) says:

"But if I had to bet my money on one of the most multiplicitious posters, I'd say it was the Ubangi/Tanai Kwai/Cog axis of evil."

Isabel II,
I can agree with you on this very subject. And it makes me sad. So very sad. Why do people do this...Why? They must be stopped. There's only one Pat Paulsen, a normal guy, with a sparkling personality, a lantern-jawed Pat Paulsen. I want to be your friend. Let me stay.

mossman says:

Hey "Pat Paulsen,"

I knew Pat Paulsen.
Pat Paulsen and I served together.
Pat Paulsen was a personal friend of mine.
"Pat"...you are no Pat Paulsen!

Allan Donaldson says:

Well having read some of this I am surprised. I think Thai women are, in the main, a lot more genuine that you make out.

I am married to a beautiful Thai girl. I am 31 now which I guess is a lot younger than most people who are fed up with fat, ugly, stuck up, dirty, English slags who always know best. Before you start imagining stuf, no, I haven't been maried to a really bad English girl or been hurt in the past. It's just an educated observation.

As for con-woman!! I made it clear to my wife that I had no money and was poor before we married. I earn a good wage but I don't own a house (could only aford a one-bedroom flat where I live anyway). I have credit card bills ot pay. My wife is completely self sufficient. She works hard and uses her own money to send home and buy clothes. She also helps me to pay my debts.

I'm quite happy. Oh and for the record she only weighs 50kg. Not too many English birds can boast all this!!!!

Allan

Anonymous says:

"Ubangi - you are undoubtedly amongst the most guilty of the charges laid above. And you know it. Perhaps a shade of humility would not go amiss."

*shaking his head* I don't believe shit like this, really. Christ, simple thoughts require few words to express. You people take the Thais to task for stupidity, and you can't read a post of more than 5 lines! Fuck humility, let me say it a little more forcefully, DON'T READ MY FUCKING POSTS!!

Here's a suggestion, David: is there a way to put the poster's name at the TOP of the post? Then, people who do not wish to think too hard, but instead want a nice bump-free ride through stupidville, can skip posts from the people who post comments other than "Duh, YEAH!"

There, Combover. Nice and short.

And to IsaShivGodzBeaKevin: No, I am not TK, nor am I Cog (although I thank you for associating my personality with two of the few posters who post something other than "Duh, YEAH!"

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

The above signed, "Love and kisses, Ubangi"

John U says:

David,

I agree wholeheartedly with ubangs post above.

It would save us ordinary people lots of wasted time reading thier long winded rubbish.

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

Advice to Ordinary People:

Until David fixes this, please note that the poster's name is still available, at the bottom of the post. Also, "their" is spelled as listed here, and you only have to click the "post" button once.

Now run along. Smells like it's time to change your Depends (an adult diaper for those who don't know). Ooh, was that reference too obscure?

Back to some "essence saving". This thread is working its way quickly down the "poster food chain".

TANAI KWAI says:

Folks talk a good game about how others post shite and they post amusing quips. But is this site richer without the Gregs and Danas of the world? Should Ubangi be banished for his excesses? Would it be better that I abandon this group in favor of other exploits? (Be merciful and don't answer that last one.)

Anyway, every board needs a few wind-up merchants.

(...)

John U says:

Seems I pushed the post button a few too may times. :<))

Spelling is not one of my weak points, but I do make the odd typo.

Ubang really, I'm surprised at you. All that's suggested is that some of us don't want to read what you put on.

That must be difficult for you to understand, but it's true. :<))

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

Which part of "Don't read it" is giving you the most trouble?

I can't think of a simpler way of saying this. TK, where's that English-Idiot Dict.?

Combover says:

Ubangi - you really cannot be told anything can you? Not even politely. It doesn't even sink in when the point is made repeatedly does it?

The point is this:

Yes, you are entitled to post anything you want. I am not suggesting David remove anything. I read some of your posts. Sometimes they are interesting. Sometimes they are amusing. Sometimes they are on-topic.

A lot of the time they are not. If it looks like utter dross I don't bother.

But logging on every day and seeing half a dozen Ubangi Me, Ibangi U~s at the left hand side of the screen is wearing me down.

The very act of sifting through the chaff to get to your own sparingly distributed contributions of interest and the eccentric ramblings of others is sapping my very will to live.

And your only recourse to people who do not enjoy your bloated contributions appears to be to erupt with indignant rage and proclaim them stupid.

Oh fuck it. I'm off to fart repeatedly in a crowded elevator to see who hangs around to enjoy my shit.

Combover says:

TK - you at least exercise some quality control and are able to respond with humour and good grace to non-idiots.

wilbur says:

As long as people have brought up suggestions for the blog, David, how about this: Seems that there should be a "general discussion area".

I am not suggesting I know how to do such a thing, and I have no experience with Movable Type. However, if such a thing were possible, it would accomplish two things:

1) People could interrupt pissing contests in the other threads by telling the participants, "Yo, you're off topic! Take it to the general area!" Not that this would always work...

2) Using me and this post as an example, you can hear a pin drop in this blog right now. What happens when people have posted to all current topics, but they still want to make a comment, or start a conversation, or whatever? And, which was the correct thread to post this comment to? Certainly not one about bar-girls and con-women.

I enjoy this blog very much, by the way. Keep up the good work David, and fellow posters. Even at its worst, the conversation here is entertaining. I'm hooked.

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

Combover:

To repeatedly answer to this drivel is a waste of my essence. I have a suggestion for you:

Why don't you come up with a list of things that would make this blog just perfect for you (not too many posts by anybody but Combover, comments that are interesting to Combover, nice short unchallenging posts so Combover doesn't lose his will to live, etc.) and post them somewhere. They we can all know exactly how to post here on MangCombover Sauce.

TANAI KWAI says:

Ubangi,

If I may, Combover (apart from having the best name here, with Porkswordsman and Farangutan running close behind) is one of the most temperate and affable people here. He was also here before either of us and shall be here when we are gone.

If he counsels you in some way it is not coming from the same place of pettiness and spite from which the likes of you and I operate. Save your venom for the unbalanced imbeciles here and strive for economy when possible, at least aspirationally.

(...)

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

TK:

Let me ask you the same question I asked Combover, in a different way: Just exactly what is a blog, anyway? I took it to be some sort of loosely-moderated discussion group.

It seems that people want everybody (but themselves) to post in tiny little unchallenging snippets, or else they "lose their will to live" and sink slowly "as... site... goes... to shit..." I fail to understand the preference for posts that are little more than typographical sound bites.

What exactly do people want from a blog, anyway?

Dana says:

What people want from a blog is me. In copious and unstinting amounts delivered without thought for husbanding of resources or practicality or rationing. Just me, me, me: delivered in a tsunami wave of wit and breeding and intelligence and good humor and education and higher evolved species behavior. Me and more me. Just me. That is what people want and crave and yearn for and lust after and quietly cry for in the quiet of the night: me. Dana. But it can't happen. It isn't meant to be. You don't always get what you want. I'm sorry.

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

So more than one comment per day, and any comment over 2 lines, is narcissism. The perfect blog is where each person posts one 3-line comment in one topic per day?

Farangutan says:

Maybe I'm too literal, but I take the offer on this site to post a comment as an opportunity to post a comment about THE FUCKING STORY and not blather on about something completely unrelated.

I dont care how long a post is (the longer the better, as long as its on topic)

Having to scroll through the reams of personal attacks and other crap every day is like sifting through pig shit for a grain of sand. Me, I'd rather go to the beach.

Ubangi, if you want to spend half your day getting angry with people whose views don't match your own and ranting about any old shit that comes to mind, get your own fucking website. How's that for an idea?

Farangutan says:

And now I have become "that which I despised."

Fuck it. Ubangi wins. Don't scroll past the white part.

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

So, the story is not supposed to start a free-wheeling discussion? If the topic wanders, this is bad? Not a challenge, a serious rhetorical question that seeks dialog.

I agree that the personal attacks get tedious. As I said above, Ubangi started as an avatar that I used (to some effect) to attack Isabel/Beak/Shiva/etc. Now, every post he makes is assumed to be an attack. Yes, many on this thread were. But, not all. Not all of my posts elsewhere have been attacks, either.

I don't get angry, by the way. I have said many times, I have no beef with anybody on this blog; in fact, I find better than half of the people I encounter here to be interesting enough to wish I could talk to them in meatspace (no, this does not include you, Marshal McLubejob).

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

"And now I have become 'that which I despised.'"
If you'll permit me, you have entered what I believe to be a useful and potentially interesting discussion, with a thoughtful and worthwhile comment (the first one, personal attack ignored). Can't the beach wait?

Greg says:

I had an irritating discussion with my Thai teacher a half hour ago that left my nerves a bit jangled.

I had corrected her pronunciation of the word "row" when used to mean the line that a group of objects forms or when used to mean to propel a boat with a paddle. She refused to believe that my pronunciation was correct. That she would not accept my authority but kept trying to correct me and tell me that row in those meanings rhymes with cow was fairly irritating. To her dismay I insisted on showing her the correct pronunciation in an authoritative online dictionary. She still refused to accept this correction to her pronunciation as valid. This seemed completely insane to me. I loose my sense of humor when someone stubbornly acts insanely stupid and refuses to acknowledge simple realities.

I put this question to the Thaivisa forum: is her behavior an isolated incident from an isolated individual, or do you recognize any pattern in her behavior that is particularly Thai? How would you react in such a situation? Do things like this happen with your Thai friends or girlfriends?

The thread provided much needed confirmation that my perceptions of a pattern were accurate. I was told that I should either adjust or leave Thailand. It was a relief to hear from others struggling with the same cultural differences.

Maintaining patience and love under conditions of huge cultural gaps is becoming a real problem for me. A real problem. Willful ignorance born from the need to save face is an abhorrent trait.

There is a lot about this country that I love, but when my patience and understanding are strained, I do have my doubts about staying here. Today I was wondering if my ability to love and trust has been compromised during my 1.5 year stay here. The face thing leads to a host of problems, such as concealing or lying about emotions and actions. Not something I can accept while keeping a high enough level of respect to have a serious love relationship.

I wonder if those who have successful relationships here are just very different in attitudes and values from me, or if they have high quality mates.

It may be right that I've been mixing with the wrong people. I just wonder how to increase the likelihood of finding folks who were more inspiring. 10 Thai girlfriends, and I've loved them all, but after getting very intimate I now would not choose to remain long term with any of them. If there were some clubs or groups that attracted a certain sort, I'd go there, but I know of none.

Willful ignorance is an attack on what it means to be human. It is an insult that I can't help but take a bit personally, even if it has nothing to do with me. I find it very difficult not to take offense, perhaps in the same way some are insulted by offensive racist comments that have nothing to do with them personally. It is just too far below our mutual human potential to be acceptable to me, morally. I can grit my teeth and shut up, but my patience is tried, my respect falls, and even my ability to love is affected. Yes, I have a lot of work to do.

I love Thailand, but living here is a matter of pros and cons. The pros are winning so far. I plan to build boats and sail out of here eventually.

The underlying motive for that behavior has mushroomed into various irritating or unfortunate actions in my friends and lovers. Occasionally. I don't know how to make friends with that, or even if I should. I have a lot of doubts. Every culture has weak points and strong points. I'm not sure if the weak points here are so culturally widespread as to make deep intimacy with a Thai highly unlikely for me.

One fellow told me that her behavior shouldn't be viewed as a culture difference, but that it is simply childlike behavior. I agree, and yet it is behavior many of us have noticed here. Pregnant pause.

Another intimacy stopper is the need to diffuse a situation instead of delving deeper into it is very strong in this culture. I do appreciate letting things go, but saying "whatever" any time there is any potential for conflict erases the possibility to communicate. I can't get past that either. I'm starting to whine, aren't I?

Today my Thai teacher tried to save face by asking me what I wanted her to say or do, and she just did it. As if she wasn't really admitting to needing to know how to correct her pronunciation, but was just humoring me, and would do anything (other than genuinely of her own volition admit to the need to learn) to change the subject. Ya, sure she lost face and despite her ploy she knew it. But the situation made it harder for us to trust each other. She learned she can't trust me to respect her need for face, and I learned I can't trust her to be forthright about simple matters.

Prior to our new relationship of teacher student, we had been lovers for a month or two. She has a new boyfriend now, and we seem both quite comfortable with just being friends now, so I genuinely don't see our previous relationship as lovers having any negative effect on our relations. My point is that if being in the position of teaching me THAI makes it impossible for her to listen to me trying to help her with her ENGLISH, even though we are friends, then this level of pride is very problematic to me and holds me back from wanting to be emotionally close. I wonder about how much closeness is possible with those for whom face is more important than truth.

At this point I'm of the opinion that some cultural differences are not merely different and equally valid ways to organize perceptions and actions. Some cultural attitudes and practices are inherently better or worse than others. For instance, any attitude that is generally considered childish and immature is inferior to one that is generally considered as very mature. Compassionate and understanding is superior to selfish and blind to anything but ones own view.

A recent post talked about a higher than developed country average of incest in some parts of Thailand. Cultural attitudes are not merely different and equal, but some average cultural attitudes can be viewed through the lens of developmental psychology, which recognizes a pattern of developmental changes in perception that are cross cultural in their pattern of change from one view to another.

The value of face is something I have to adapt to here, but for me it remains a barrier to intimacy. I really wonder if the importance of face and the multitude of social implications (such as the poor education system and the lack of emphasis on logic and creativity) precludes a deep intimacy. I wonder if we just learn to compromise so much, we forget what deep intimacy once meant to us. I appreciate good sex, a warm body to hold, shared laughter and just sharing the same space. But intimacy used to mean a lot more to me than that. It used to mean being inspired by and inspiring my mate. It used mean being able to respectfully share any detail about anything. That has never happened to me here, and that often seems like too great a loss.

I once was in love with a Thai woman, whom I had been with for 6 months. The whole time I was with her she had been lying to me about her true feelings for me. I came to see her as living her life through a mask. She eventually told me that she has no one in her life that she bears all of her soul to - not even her dear sister. Her words generally come from her mask, not from a cohesive whole ego that some call the heart.

Several other Thais that I met both before and after dating this woman have told me that Thais often speak from a mask. One 19 year old girl high-so college girl once explicitly warned me very specifically about this. She claimed to be exempt from the import of her warning, but I later learned from a girlfriend that she had been dissing me to my girlfriend, while being all friendly faces to me. She was telling my GF that I was not an interesting man because my dress was out of date and I didn't obviously appear to have much money.

The importance of face, and the many implications of face are aspects of Thai culture that have made intimacy with the Thais I've known difficult. I can't fully adapt to face taking precedence over truth in communication and maintain deep intimacy.

Sigh, I guess there is nothing for it but to try to let such situations go.

Sometimes the refusal to be honest about a simple issue, like why the person doesn't want to eat at a certain restaurant and whether or not that person has ever eaten there before, can just be too much for me. Is it really too much to expect to able to be listened to and taken seriously and get a straight answer to a simple and benign question? I find it extremely disrespectful to be lied to and ignored, and can't come to grips with the fact that I have to put up with extremely childish and selfish behavior in order to allow someone to save face. It is, at this point, often beyond me to lower my expectations to such pathetic standards. I really don't know what else there is to do but lower my expectations though, so I do. This sometimes makes me seriously question if being here is leading to me losing important values. I don't want to live a life saying "may pen rai". I don't want to live a life of seriously compromised interpersonal standards.

Dana says:

Hello Greg--If it was not for the genetic anomaly known as the Thai female you would not be in this situation. You are there because they are there. You are the bee, they are the flower. So from the very first second all of the relationships with Thai women are based on something other than logic and dignity. And they know it. The dumbest most ignorant farmer's daughter knows she has the POWER. But knowing this is not enough for you if you want to know everything about the social dynamics of the place you are currently living in. You left out one of the key components of every single social thing that happens to you in Thailand. Like the toredo worms in a ships hull it is invisible but ultimately deadly. RACISM. Thais do not believe that racism is bad behavior--they believe it is Science--they teach it to their children around the dinner table. They incorporate it in government policies and social responses. No matter what you do and what you think in Thailand it is all a waste of time from the point of view of acceptance. You can't change your face. You can't win and you can't find love and you can't find acceptance because of Racism. This is what the Thais want. They don't want anything else. So you will never recieve anything else. So learning to understand their points-of-view, and learning to speak Thai with the right tones, and volunteering for every little village need, and smiling at everyone on the bus is all a waste of time. Nothing will accrue from your good hearted and generous attitude and legitimate desire to be accepted. You can't change your face. And you can't teach love and acceptance to a Racist.

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

Greg:

I would ask where the discussion took place. If it was in front of the class, or where any of her colleagues could see it, I believe she would have been incapable of any other behavior.

The teacher-student relationship is clearly spelled out in Confucian philosophy. It is one of the most rigid and respected relationships. That relationship, much like the relationship between parent and offspring, is absolutely not negotiable, not buffeted by the winds of truth or fact or logic. We Westerners can at least see the value in this, and usually teach our own children to respect teachers and elders in general, too.

By her logic YOU were being the insensitive one. Of COURSE you know how to pronounce the word, ANYBODY could see that, but she is the TEACHER, regardless of whether the discussion was in her field of expertise or not.

Further, the teacher in question is a WOMAN. Discounting her nationality for a moment, why not run down the list of women in your life, from whatever culture, and imagine which of them would have appreciated being loudly disagreed with and corrected in public. ESPECIALLY, imagine if she as a teacher of other leader of people, and this happened where they could see it.

The idea of people living "behind the mask" was not invented in Asia; seems to me it one of the things we leave the West to escape. Same is true of two-faced women, Christ knows! Although I do not seek to rebut the influence of racism on farang-Thai relations (my simple opinion is that it colors our interactions but most good people can look past it, on BOTH sides), I would simply say that it is not the best explanation for everything, this situation being one example.

I would suggest you separate the cultural aspects of your relations with Thais from the human-condition aspects. To tie this comment back to the topic of the thread (something I'm frequently accused of not doing enough of) ALL women are two-faced con artists who hate to be corrected in front of their peers.

By ascribing this event to her Thai-ness (is that like "lesbianity"?) rather to her woman-ness or the fact that this is a teacher-student relationship, you have positioned yourself to lose respect for Thais and Thailand. That would be too bad.

Greg says:

We were alone in my room.

Thainess does have something to do with this type of behavior, because such behavior is more extreme and common in this part of the world where Face is such a powerful social construct.

Greg says:

Dana - I'm trying to learn Thai but I don't have the ambition to be culturally integrated here. I have learned a lot about what it means to be human by living in different cultures. My cultures basic assumptions are not universall. Some of my basic assumptions as to what is appropriate adult behaviour I do not want to loose sight of. I wonder what the likelyhood of meeting a Thai educated peer who is capable of deep honesty and introspection is? The FACE thing seems to all but preclude that possibility.

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

Greg:

If you had her in your room, alone, I guess what I think is that there were other politics involved than what I mentioned. My central point remains open to discussion: Why chalk it up to the fact that she is Thai, rather than a WOMAN in this situation?

If you replay the scene slowly in your mind, like a slow-motion train wreck, would it REALLY have been possible for the scene to play out differently if she were a farang? A rhetorical question.

thai3 says:

Face is the difference between her being falang and thai. I have seen it countless times and even here on this forum. When pointing out that someone is wrong rather than say oh yes you are right, or sorry you did book a double room but.... or maybe yes I never knew that they will lie, stubbornly refuse to accept the truth, threaten, cry foul, claim you hate them, maintain it's all your fault or childishly fall out with you. Yes it could happen with a falang but lets FACE it, it's 100 times more likely with a thai. Lucky for me my thai teacher is not so stupid.-peter

Greg says:

Ubangi, it absolutely certainly would have played out differently with a falang. I'm not sure why you even doubt that. You don't seem to want cultural differences to be at play. Why?

Greg says:

Also Ubangi, I may not have been clear enough that the underlying dynamic that led to this particular extreme example has been seen by me many many times. I used one particular example as a stand in for an entire dynamic. I have been discussing this dynamic with many expats here and many have similar experiences. It isn't just all in my head, and I didn't provoke an obvious reaction that any woman would have.

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

Not suggesting that face was not an important factor, and I'm not suggesting you dreamed it up or that it doesn't exist. This situation just sounds like something I've experienced many times with women in the West. (Maybe it's that spear I keep sticking in their faces?)

That said, if you examine the whole situation from all sides and still feel that "face" was the determining factor here, then what? They can no more change that than they can change their skin color (thank heavens!). It's a feature of being in Asia.

I guess then, I would have to agree with you: If you can't adjust to the face thing, maybe a different choice of where to live would be appropriate. I wouldn't pick any other place in Asia. You should avoid Latin America too, because they have the face thing AND the machismo thing. Forget the Middle East, blood feuds run there for generations if you see a girl's ankle. Africa is supposed to be nice, but much of it is unsafe for us Americans and Europeans...

WELCOME BACK TO THE WEST!

(Think you could stand that?)

Greg says:

Well said Ubangi.

I'm thinking of working on becoming an attractive male (yaght, new hair, excess cash) and floating over the coasts of several countries. In my end days New Zealand may suit me. Not sure yet.

Greg says:

Pleasure to converse with you Dana.

I don't agree that Thai females have more power due to my lust.

The honeybee is lusted at by the flower.

I'm old and balding and wrinkly. Kinda stupid too. But women still seem to look for some communion. I agree that they also look for steady baht. Also, but not only.

The weak position can be powerful. Foolish crinkly men can find themselves inside beautiful hearts. Younger forum dudes and locals make loud noises. Call the police.

There is no need to defend the dishonorable points of Thai culture. It is refreshing that you both appreciate Thai culture and don't try to defent it. Take as clear a look as you can stand, and choose your poison.

Falang women suck almost as much as I do.

I still believe in meritocracy. The flat wasteland of egalitarianism dictated by the instep intelligencia is a fad. Hitler won. He intimidated generations into swallowing the opposite of his beliefs.

Thais recognize class difference. They are correct in that, except that they have no skill in understanding what makes for class.

Dana says:

Jesus Mary and Joseph Greg; if you are not careful you are going to turn this chat site into a free exchange of ideas between thoughtful individuals. Don't let us down now. While we are disorientated by intelligent ideas and heartfelt notions see if you can take over the site. Your first step is to get Tanai Kwai's head on a pike--Good Luck.

TANAI KWAI says:

Yes, Dana, I bestride this site like a Collossus in jackboots, pulling out the iron fists with which I rule whenever I need to type something, which is invariably nasty and thoughtless.

I am the enemy of the intelligent and heartfelt -- having instead cast my lot with the stupid and disingenuous (we are on the same side, I presume?). Had you not intervened I was about to seek the opinion of the readership on a related topic.

(thanks!)

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

Well, Greg, if you are indeed considering "becoming an attractive male (yaght, new hair, excess cash)", I would suggest that you instead limit your existence to inhabiting this website only, giving up your earthly incarnation entirely. By reading the posts on the site, I'd say that everybody here is sexy, erudite and wealthy. And, the rent is cheap.

TANAI KWAI says:

draught beer: "draft" beer, not "drawt" beer.

for naught: for "nawt," not for "naft."

yaght: same as yacht, both "yawt"

(how does anybody learn English?)

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

I cut-pasted the comment and felt it contemptuous to correct the spelling.

When does the marking period end? :)

TANAI KWAI says:

"I'd say that everybody here is sexy, erudite and wealthy..."

If I were wealthy I would not be laboring in obscurity on a beautiful Sunday afternoon, a mere amanuensis, as I draft and tweak this shite for advantage:

IV. Indemnification

Seller shall indemnify, defend and hold harmless Buyer and Buyer's affiliates, shareholders, directors, officers, employees, contractors, agents and other representatives from all demands, claims, actions, causes of action, proceedings, assessments, damages, liabilities, settlements, judgments, fines, penalties, and interest, asserted, prosecuted or enterred into by, or payable to, third parties (including, without limitation, Buyer's customers) (collectively "Third Party Claims") and...

(wealthy my eye)

More Lamb says:

Picking on spelling and typo's .... a very worthwhile crusade ;)

TANAI KWAI says:

I was not correcting any spelling error. "Yaght" is a common spelling of yacht. I've always assumed it was a British thing.

(...)

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

Hey, TK! A mite sensitive today, no? As I said, this moniker has earned a knee-jerk negative response; no offense was meant to anybody, I was being satirical.

Go to the fridge and grab a beer, and I will too. Clink it gently against the monitor along with me, and drink deep. It's Sunday, let's relax.

TANAI KWAI says:

I guess it's a Dutch thing, but evidently considered standard usage.

http://hangang.seoul.go.kr/eng/leports/l_gong04.html

(but please, go ahead and continue with your non-contemptuousness)

TANAI KWAI says:

Sorry. I guess the mint sauce that accompanied the lamb didn't agree with me.

(...)

Dana says:

Hello TK (or should I say Collossus)--the trout that rises to the fly ends up in the boat. Since I'm just stupid that is my achilles heel and my excuse--but you should know better. I'm disappointed.

TANAI KWAI says:

"...the trout that rises to the fly ends up in the boat."

...and the fly that kisses the windshield ends up as a Pollock homage.

Re: your disappointment in me; neither the first nor the last instance, I'm afraid.

(always more a fan of Pollock than of trout)

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

TK:

You piqued my interest (unlike you, I am not working today, and I'm a little bored), so I checked a little. Interesting, neither the copy of the Random House Unabridged Dictionary I have here in my little corner of meatspace, nor the online Merriam-Webster Dictionary (http://www.m-w.com) lists that spelling of yacht. Your resource does say, though, "...its Dutch equivalent Yaght has now settled as it is in English." *shrug* Huh. More curious now. Do you have another resource?

Although I've been to South Korea many times, the latest being just this past winter, I've never been to Hangang Park. Looks nice, maybe I can get away for a visit there next time.

TANAI KWAI says:

My gigantor (good luck finding that one) dictionary doesn't expressly approve "yaght," though it does list yaught, jaght, jacht and jachtschiff in its etymology. And if you search for "yaght" on the web you'll see evidence that this is quite a common spelling.

I would love to go to South Korea. A great people and a country with a nice ratio of jawdroppers, if their exports are any indication.

(...)

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

Although derided by many, I absolutely LOVE South Korea. The people are very hospitable and friendly, accomodations are good (if expensive by Thailand's standard), and the food is absolutely delicious. That is, when they aren't eating such things as the gristle from a cow's knee, or soaked hoof. Eating there is a very sociable thing, usually followed by an extended bout of drunkenness and karaoke. I have a blast every time I go there, which isn't nearly often enough.

Dana says:

Attn: Posters--TK does not use an OED, he uses a TKED.

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

Gigantor = cartoon flying robot, lightningbolts between its fists, from deep in the mists of my childhood memory.

Pat Paulsen(hic..!) says:

Dana,

Damn! Dean stole-my-thoughts about a post for you from "Rare Species..." Your life is a boat, no "your life is in the wake," and the boat carries your thoughts. He was talking in the inclusive, I was thinking of you.

I thought about it, he wrote it.

Pat

Dana says:

OK, all you smartipants posters--if this 'Dean' is an avatar of some current poster--who is it? I am prepared to worship at this guys feet. TK says it isn't him, so that just leave me; no, no forget I said that. Anyway, this 60's New Age Stream of Conscienceness BS has me laughing like a hyena. I'll bet this guy is wearing pathouli oil and a hemp T-shirt and tiedyed underpants with a crystal hanging around his neck.

Isabel II says:

"You should avoid Latin America too, because they have the face thing AND the machismo thing."

That is so completely wrong. There is no such concept as "face" in Latin America, and yes, it is an Eastern concept. Latin Americans do have the machismo thing, but then again, it really doesn't vary much from the sentiments that I've seen expressed on these threads. Just about every traditional culture has their own version of "machismo", otherwise known as: the man is king and is always right.

Latinos don't need face. We've got nothing to hide. And I'm afraid the majority of latin women would be too much for you beginners to handle.

besos

Get a life says:

"......if you search for "yaght" on the web you'll see evidence that this is quite a common spelling."

Not in English it isn't!

Come on, admit it, TK, you made a mistake. Even you are fallible.

"I am confident that the mechanisms for judging my fallibility are infallible." Tony Blair.

TANAI KWAI says:

If your mission is to demonstrate my fallibility you need to aim higher -- and elsewhere.

(...)

TANAI KWAI says:

Speaking of obesity, it is an epidemic among Latinas also. Chronically overfed and undernourished, most here in Texas eat a "subsistence" diet of rice, beans, flour tortillas and "partes disponibles." Throw in some utterly non-nutritive junk food and soft drinks and they're doomed. Even the ones at my gym, who work themselves out mercilessly, can't jettison that thick carapace of lard.

Just a few dietary changes would make such a difference but don't try to stand between a Latina and her gobs of melted cheese.

http://www.thepaleodiet.com/

(...)

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

I frankly believe that every culture has the concept of "face". However, the behaviors that accompany the gain and loss of face vary with the culture. It's like accents: You can't hear your own.

Isabel II says:

Tanai Kwai:

That is very true. But not all latinos eat cheese with the same intensity. Diets vary region to region. But yes, I have to concede that there are a lot of fat hispanic people. And I guess I can't completely begrude your revulsion of big fat women because I feel the same way about big fat men.

Ubangi:

What Asia calls "face", the Western Hemisphere calls embarrassment. In a way you are right, everyone does have their version of face. But I can't think of any other part of the world besides Asia that has such a deeply entrenched avoidance strategy to save face. Can you?

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

The flip-side of embarassment (or humiliation) is prestige or status. It's face, no matter what. In the US and Europe, humiliated people tend to kill themselves. In Latin America and the Far East, they tend to kill YOU.

TANAI KWAI says:

Rule Hispania!

(...)

Jasmine Tea says:

Dear All,

Well, this is not a big surprised.. but it is kinda a "look down" comment to who we are. I will have to excuse myself first that my mother language is not English.. so mistake would be found here for sure. I just don't understand why you just Thai Ladies as thoese that you were saying. Firstly, you don't give people respect. Some said they need to do it because they need to survive. Well.. you know what? You judge people in a wrong bad way.. and then please don't expect us to judge you as an uneducated foreigner then.

Remember, Always treat people with respect. We have heart.. and manhy of the ladies are nice. I don't like the way you guys assume all this jazz. And excuse me, before judging other.. that their english is bad.. ask yourself.. if you could speak thai. Ask yourself.. if you ever pay respect to other... at least a drama. I believe thoes girls who are prostitue at least know how to pay respect to their guests.. but since that is their occupation.. why do they have to pay respect to you all the time.. when you don't even care to give them just 1 percent. Don't you think so?

Jasmine

The Evil Paw of The Three Eyed Monkey says:

What's with the new, insecure Greg? I thought you were a good looking dude, always on the pull, few oovers always on the go at the same time, never getting involved in emotional relationships, blah, blah.

Now you can't deal with your teacher's Thai pride and appear to have taken great umbrage to some teenager taking the piss behind your back. Snap out of it, mate - bring back the old arrogant, smart arse Greg. Although we all knew you were delusional, at least it was funny.

As for Isobel 11, weren't you supposed to be pissing off on holiday or something? And haven't you 'signed off for good' a few times? Unlike some of the other 'agents provacateurs' who post regularly, you've still never said anything worthwhile so why not do us a favour and hit the road for good.

Dean says:

Dana:

I really kind of regret putting all that hippy-dippy stuff. Like entropy, it just sort of happened. A lot of writing is self therapy and I wrote it mostly for myself, to remind myself of certain things.

As for patchoulli, I don't wear that smell, but I have been around people who have. patch.

I wish I were taller. I am 5'8" tall, and I have black hair, brown eyes, and slightly suntanned skin.
If I were taller I would attract more women.

I once went to the elephant zoo at Sampran across the street from Joseph Upatham school at which I did a three month stint, teaching.

There was an boa constrictor, irridescent with black diamonds on its back. I said to my Thai buddy who was with me at the time, "I wish I had a penis as long as a boa constrictor, then I could make a lot of women happy!"

I am willing to give anyone my mailing address to write me a letter here in Vancouver. But I severely doubt that anyone would write. With email, I would send someone an email and not get very many responses at all. The message board, as this is, is way more dynamic.

Message boards rule!

I feel embarassed when I type something about hippies, or when I make a reference to something from the 80's.

My girlfriend in Thailand wrote me a letter today. I think that she is spying on me. I was painting a picture of Wat Pra Keo, and then she sent me a letter which included a specific mention of Wat Pra Keo! I mentioned the fact that she moved location three blocks away. Before, she was staying at Banglamgphu, now she is staying at Pranagarn -that word again!
Since I told a couple of my friends that she moved to Pranagarn, she would write me letters, but she never put the word Pranakorn on the envelope ever again. Inexplicable! Probably just a coincidence!

Likewise, maybe I could worship at your feet as well. There would be a real MAS, a mutual admiration society!

More on the avatar stuff which you seem to comment on:

The parallel universe is parallel to this one, not in terms of linear-parallel, but parallel in terms of dimension. So the doorway to the next dimension is not literally a doorway, although it sometimes can very well be. The doorway to the next dimension is energy transformation; a book, a thought, a sleep, a death.

Muslims believe that if you see something sinful or something that offends, to have looked involuntarily the first time is one thing. It is the second or any subsequent looks that are going to pin you. -Therefore, the eyes are the footsteps of the spirit!!! When going through a shopping mall, sometimes the "footsteps" of the eyes have nothing to do with the footsteps of the feet.

Some people believe that it is the brain what makes consciousness possible. The brain is actually a filter which cuts down one's consciousness perception. During dreaming, or on hallucinogenics, or at the moment of death, the filters cut off.

So the idea that thoughts are merely the random firings of nerce synapses in the brain is an incomplete picture.

We think, which leads to actions. Actions are another kind of thought. That is the idea of Secret Societicians that God, or the Universe is constantly giving birth to itself with its own essence for its own reasons of development.
When everything is God, then there is no longer a God.

That is what Jesus meant when he said, "I am not of this World." Actually, for those of you who will never get around to picking up a copy of any of David Icke's books, he wrote that someone called Abelard Reuchlin wrote that Jesus was a creation of an Italian writing family called Piso. Calpurnius Piso, Antonius Piso, one of the Pisos actually became a Roman Emperor under a different name. Well, this family of writers wrote the story of Jesus, a fictional character stolen from Babylonian mythology, the Egyptian story of Osiris-Isis-Seth-Horus, etc. etc. In fact, I think that Puzo, who wrote those famous books is a play on the word Piso and an inside joke of the Illuminati played on us. But the psychic force behind the millions of people who truly do believe that is very real!!!
Who cares what people believe, if what they believe teaches them to be a good person?

I read on a Shaman website that not every Shaman will marry and have children. I do not want to have any children. Children increases your karmic ties to this Earth. One's connection, and work with this Earth continues after one dies and to have a child would mean I would have ghostly chains after I die. And I do not want to bring a being in this world who will have to go through that first time when it realizes, "One day, I must go through the experience of death."

It is too expensive to have children. Perhaps, since I am an impoverished man, I should look for a rich woman. "Barry Lyndon, at this time had abondoned the foolish notions of romance that he had as a youth and decided to set his heart out to meet a woman of means."

Who knows what hand the card game of life will deal out? Perhaps I may very well sire children in my life one day, but right now, I sure don't see how that is ever going to happen.

How I hope that more of you write more often. I notice that the regulars, TK, Greg, Mossman, TonyChang, Isabel II, Mr Peter, etc etc only write about five time a day. I would have to wait a week to read 35 entries.

Have any of you ever seen the TV series 'Oz'?
In that prison soap opera, people would drop in and out. After awhile, you would get to know the prisoners. Every season, a few newcomers would appear, and some would drop out. And every once in awhile, real heavy-weight stars like Luke Perry, and Lothaire Bluteau would make a cameo appearance.

If I understood Thai more, I would understand the Thai soap operas. I could if I tried; if Thai soap operas are like North American soap operas which usually do not go beyond a grade 5 vocabulary, then I should have no problem in soon understanding Thai soap operas.

I can not help but wonder if Rupert Murdoch owns a lot of media outlets in Thialand and therefore, Western values would be grafted on to the Thai soap operas, values such as materialism, the throw-away society, mean spirited, gut level Machia-well whatever the fuck that guy's name was, values.
And lots of gossiping.
Nin-tah mak mak loy!

Dean

Dean says:

Jay Ingram of Discovery Channel Canada the other day said that out of all the things we see in our environment from moment to moment, only a small percentage registers, and only a small percentage of experiences make it to our long term memory.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

I don't know if I should write for this or any other message board. It is like stage fright but in this case a stage fright of writing words on an e-bulletin board.

If I don't write for this message board, then it will be more of a grand edifice that it originally appeared to me in the times before I posted my first entry.

Seeing oneself's written words published be it on paper or online is a type of masturbation.
A psychodrama, that's for sure!

Every single time I post a column, I wonder if I have gotten way over my head.

The mind is capable of misinterpreting dreams.
In Thailand, they sell dream books ubiquitously.
Dreams in Thai is called phun.

Well, one night I had a really nice dream about Vancouver; the Pacific Coast. I saw Spanish Banks, and I thought of spring time in Vancouver with a cool breeze that smells really chill and there was nice jazzy saxophone music. I woke up crying, but crying with sheer joy.

The next morning, a Buddhist Priest walked up to me and said, "Mee Phun wan, mie?" Did you have a sweet dream?
Why did he ask that? How did he know. Priests do not go walking up to me asking me if I had a sweet dream every day.

Dean

Message boards are for what Carl Jung called, an introvert. Indeed Bill Gates wrote in his 1996 book that email is for those temperaments who do not socialize and prefer to write messages rather than to meet fact to face. So I guess a meeting with any of you, ever, even though the prospect of this can happen no sooner than a few months away, is out of the question. Just as well.

Be what you want to be. I have seen farang dressed like a Thai, Chinese people who want to emulate Europeans, White people singing rap music...
It is not a case of Benedict Arnold. It is a more like,
Grey Owl. An Indian is only an idea.

Follow your dreams and you will be there.

If, for example an Asian person really likes Europeans in his lifetime, when he dies, as in his life his spirit will gravitate to the European zones in the Astral World; in the 5th Dimension, and he will be reborn as European.

The Buddha said if you want to see your past and future life, look at this lifetime. I have a strange suspicion that katooeys will be reborn as a woman in the next life because in this life they were growing spiritually more and more like a female, and toms (lesbians) will be reborn as male in the next lifetime.

Write on!

Dean

Dean says:

The message board is a soap opera!

In the last posting I mentioned about thinking of stopping to write on this message board.

I got to learn to stop making promises!!!!

THE GENTLEMAN SCAMP says:

My sweetheart (ladyboy) Doc Pat Pong is definatley a con (but i love her so much)

ADONIS says:

What was the topic of this thread again? lol

Isabel II says:

Evil Paw:

You must be delusional. With a few exceptions,
NO ONE has produced an original thought on these threads. Please refer to your previous moronic postings and ineffectual insults of time past for further proof.

" ... Only through time time is conquered."

If it is true, according to T.S. Eliot, that "Time present and time past, Are both perhaps present in time future, And time future contained in time past"

then please duly note that at this moment I am telling you to "FUCK OFF".

Thank you. That's all I'd like to say right now.

Get a life says:

Isabel, ofcourse no-one here has produced an original thought. If they were intelligent enough for original thought, they wouldn't be here! (And I include myself in that.)

Still living Greg says:

Original thoughts:

Beauty is not in the eye of the beholder. It is a perception embedded in how our human brain functions (as per studies of the last two decades), embedded in our social training, influenced by how many beers sucked upon, and influenced by how much our eyes are intwined with the perceptive organ some call the heart. Ok, not original thoughts, but perhaps an original grouping of thoughts.

It's ok to be shallow, as long as you are not merely shallow. No one can help perceiving the right shape as sexy and the wrong shape as ugly.

You're an idiot of you call other people shallow and you are a fat woman or a poor man.

The girl next to me is typing fast, seems young, has a strong gallic noce, full head of hair, no wrinkles, and sharp eyes. Still some fat in her cheeks, smooth knuckles. Ok, so these thoughts are not perceptive or interesting but a google search for the whole sentence won't bring up a match.

Red brick for interior walls of personal spaces such as living rooms and bedrooms is more comforting if the grouting is made flush with the brick. If the grouting is recessed and the brick is not square, it has too much a feeling of an exterior wall, and does not provide the emotional feeling of being inside a protected space.

Public institutions such as government organizations can't be contrasted with private institutions such as corporations, as if one was owned by an oversee-er and one by individuals. Corporations are a mid-level organization of a relatively small group of people, that is only subordinate to the public sector in that the public sector has pseudo legal control over the private sector. Both are entities that are very structurally similar, in that they are an organizations of people to serve a purpose possibly independent of any of the individuals. Contrasting the two naively leads to serious political and economic silly conclusions.

The thing about Hitler winning already because people bring up his name to defend any argument that he seemed to be against.

Two girlfriends should not wear the same earings when going out together. It makes them seem not confident enough to be dateable as individuals.

Balding guys with red eyes who type on mangosause.com from an internet cafe on Tuesday night are terribly sexy.

Those who can love the least worthy among us are the most worthy among us. Those who think the least worthy and the most worthy are in essence equally worthy are venerably correct, but still pretty stupid.

Our communal sense of humor will change over the next few hundred years, and will come to reflect some styles already shown by Proroge/Dean/Wesley. Irony will die, and move into whatever the hell it is that he does.

John U says:

Isabel II,

Original thought.

You obviously haven't read my story about Bin Laden and JC. (cringe)

Nothing I'm proud of but original.

You read it first here.

I'm not sure where, maybe somebody else has the energy to find out. Fuck it, I'm not looking

John U says:

Isabel II,

There's another one too.

It's about a guy going to TSA (Thai Shaggers Anonymous), and his discussion with the group.

Same again. Don't know exactly where.

Still thinking.... there's the one about Miss Noo's Short Time Hotels... don't know if that counts.

Hmmmm.....

Cog says:

Isabel II wrote:
"But if I had to bet my money on one of the most multiplicitious posters, I'd say it was the Ubangi/Tanai Kwai/Cog axis of evil."

Mamasita,
I categorically deny belonging to a conspiratorial trimuverate of cyber-indentities.

I is who I is. I have a good idea what 'is' is, and it doesn't involve Khun Ubangi, Khun TK or sex with Monica Lewinsky (shudder).

Although it is an honor to be associated with Khun Ubangi and Khun TK, I am not in their league. My prose is of low-brow sophistication, resembling not one iota of Khun Ubangi/TK's erudition and wordsmithery. Please refrain from praising me at their expense. However, feel free to compliment me on how well I 'kiss ass'.

Errr...and tell Dean to pass the bong. Khob khun khrap.

Steve says:

I met my Thai wife in a go-go bar.

I went in there not wanting to talk to any of the girls, just chill out. She came up to me to talk (the mamasan prodded her into it) and we've been talking ever since.

We now have a baby, have bought our own house and are quite happy.

Basically, we've had our ups and downs, but I've never had to bail out her family or friends. She's loyal with a good heart and a lot of courage.

She was proposed to by other guys but they were either mamaboy backpackers or rich old geezers. She turned them all down.

If a Thai girl or bar girl is out to get you, it's going to be pretty obvious. Just take things slow, be aware of warning signs, maintain common sense and privacy, and keep in mind there's plenty more out there. What's the hurry?

If you find a good one, be prepared to wait a few years before you marry. After sufficient time, you'll know if she is the one.

I never had much money, which in the end worked in my favour: she obviously didn't marry me for the money!

John says:

Well I would like to add my story to the mix, but before I do, I would like to address some of the more-than-obvious English teachers in Thailand. You're not fooling anybody. Nobody, besides this one teacher I work with, uses the vocabulary that you people use.

"Cultural attitudes are not merely different and equal, but some average cultural attitudes can be viewed through the lens of developmental psychology, which recognizes a pattern of developmental changes in perception that are cross cultural in their pattern of change from one view to another."
I mean let's be honest; did you really talk this way back in your respective countries with your friends and family? No offense Greg. I happened to like your posting and have a few things to say about that later. I can appreciate an idiom or two, but I didn't even understand that sentence.

Anyway, on to the story. I think the topic has become somewhat jaded, but that's a good thing. I love to read these postings because they really are thought provoking and entertaining. However, I would like to steer back to the con-women. I personally have had some bad experiences with Thai women and am currently facing many of the same problems I have dealt with in the past. My story starts back in high school back in the states. My con-woman was a foreign exchange student. She was a gem of course. Love at first site, but unfortunately, I'm from America. No offense to Americans, but we're not exactly given a wealth of education on matters or geography beyond our borders. So I knew nothing about Thailand, its people, customs, cons, lies, etc. I hooked up with her and shortly after her stay in the US I made a trip to Thailand to meet my sweetheart's family in Samut Songkhram. Much to my surprise, her family lived in a 3-walled hut where they picked the flies out of last night's tom-yum for breakfast.

Awkwardly enough, me being a know-it-all 18-year-old, the culture shock didn't set in as I was only here for a week.

So I go back to the states for a period of not less than 4 years, limiting my contact to her as I was growing up and realizing how little I truly knew about life and, more importantly, MONEY.

Anyway, long story short, I came over, proposed--without her already divorced parents' permission--,zipped back home, filed the paperwork with INS, was approved, and brought her to the states. The weird thing was, I put the paperwork in the mail on 9/11/2001 and still got it processed within 4 months. So I bring her to the states and get married, and not even 9 months into our marriage, I witnessed her typing an e-mail to her boyfriend in Hawaii. The only thing that I don't know is how long she was e-mailing him for. I was able to obtain e-mails that dated as far back as 3 months. That means that she wasn't married to me longer than 6 months before she decided she couldn't wait any longer. I, much like Greg seeking someone who could inspire me and someone who could be inspired by me, thought I found my true love. So needless to say, I was absolutely crushed when I found out about her betrayal. Regardless I came to Thailand to get her back, but she wasn't here.

Once here in Thailand, I discovered a lot about Thai women that I knew nothing about before. Many of the same issues that have been posted out here on this board are almost identical to the stories I've heard over that last year.

So what's the point, John? You're story is not different. You got fucked just like the rest of us. My point is, ladies and gentlemen, that this is not some unfortunate social circumstance where a person is born into a life of poverty and has to make a choice to survive by deceit or die. These people, much like my wife, are programmed from birth. This "choice" is pumped into the very milk they suck from their mother's tit. You see it everywhere you go. They poison the minds of their children with this shit on TV. On any given night I can identify at least 5 different shitty Thai soap operas about betrayal, deceit, and really bad marksmanship. The parents think they're doing their children a favor my letting them watch a story where the good guy always wins, but they fail to recognize all the trash in between.

Synopsis: Some poor girl has been thrown out of her rich daddy's house because she's in love with a local grease monkey and daddy doesn't like it. Grease monkey boyfriend loves her so much that he tries to rape her to show his affection. So she turns to life of prostitution because she has no other choice. However, as all good things go, she is able to clean up her life and start all over again.
In the mean time the children at home are building up a sympathy case for this girl and realize, "Hey one day this may be a problem for me too" or, hell why not, "this already is a problem for me" and thus starts the programming.

And I know this post dates back quite a ways, but I would like to address people like Miss TypicalThaiWoman. Sure it's all fine when the foreigner comes here to abuse women and get what they deserve, but what about the poor unsuspecting 17-year-old asshole who lives in Shittsville, TX and knows absolutely nothing about Thailand, its women, or its customs. You see the problem I have with the "typical Thai logic" is that there is never any liability in it. You see the prostitution in Thailand and you point at the farangs. You see the trash all over the streets and beaches and point at the farangs. You have record corruption in your government and you put it on the farang that frequents the bars on Sukhumvit and Khao Sarn Rd. So how do you explain a Thai national going to the US and duping some unsuspecting high school kid into being her family's financial crutch for 5 years? Is that because of the farangs in Thailand, too?

Wow, I sound bitter don't I?

I'm sure at first her intentions weren't to dupe the stupid American, but I'm also sure that the years that followed our meeting in the states slowly moved in that direction. When I first married her, I was rather excited, and everyday from the day I got married to the month before we separated I had nothing but good things to say about my "blushing bride". What I didn't see was that the entire 9 months of what I thought was bliss was actually 9 months of catering to that little bitch's every whim. The one thing I hated the most was when she obviously had a problem she was struggling with, and I tried to help with, I was always shut out and she just wouldn't talk to me. In the end our separation was very hard for me because I thought I was doing my best for this girl and the whole time I didn't see the deception.

So for those of you whom which it might make a difference, here's my tale of woe and sorrow.

Greg:

I couldn't agree with you more about the Thai people and their willful ignorance. I've spent the last year with my new girlfriend trying to break down that absurd wall they put up to save face. And this one wasn't a bar girl. She was just a plain old receptionist at my apartment in Khlong Tan when we first met. After about 2 months of hanging out with her and her friends, we got serious. She seems to be an alright girl, but she's incredibly unsure of herself and it's a bloody nightmare trying to get information out of her when she's upset. I always get the "Mai pben rai", "Mai mii a-rai" shit from her, too. The one thing I can say is keep up with the Thai lessons. Just hire you a new teacher and tell that bitch and her bad pronunciation to hit the road. I've been learning Thai since the moment I got here and sometimes it's a blessing, sometimes it can be a curse. But if you want to find a genuine human being in Thailand, don't go with one that can speak English. 90% of my conversations are in Thai now. It makes things a lot easier to deal with when you understand what they're saying about you. And most of the time you'll find that they aren't saying that many bad things about you. Granted I only understand about 70% of what they're saying, but still it helps to adjust to the cultural differences.

And just for grins, Tanai Kwai, I'd like to hear some feedback from you on this. I rather like what you have to say. Even if it's negative feedback. ;)

For all you Khao Sarn/Phat Phong/Sukhumvit/Silom 2-week visitors to Thailand:

Just because you've spent two fucking weeks in Thailand doesn't make you an expert on anything here. Get away from the foreigners and see the Thais for who they really are, and then come out here and post like your opinion might be worth a damn.

Wow that was a lot, and I'm probably the only one who enjoyed me writing that. LOL.

Good luck folks

John

YABS says:

ADVICE NEEDED: Is she a con woman
I met just over a year ago a very sexy girl
from Ayyuthaya, but in patong. At the time she worked at one of the bars under Tiger but it was
not a take away bar. It just had some attractive gilrs there to get the punters in but they wouldn't go with you. This gilr said she had men offering her thousands of baht but she would not go. she was a good girl. I've seen her on and off for a year and eventually slept with her. She seems to go from one job to another very quickly and she is always out clubbing. last timne i was down there she seemed to cancel arrangements very quckly to go to bangkok to see her aunt for money.
My mate reckons she is a freelancer.
I've never given her any money nor has she asked for it but then again my mate reckons she has a supplier. Obviously i don't want to get involved with a whore. Not sure what to amke of it
soem of the people she speaks with are defianelty on the game but then again she often at nightclubs.
Some people think that ALL girls in the areas like patong or Pattaya are on the game in one form or another. Just bcasue she doesn't work in abar doesn't make her a good girl.
anyone got any feelings on this?

William Shatner's Pants says:

YABS

Is she employed by the bar she works? Bar girls are paid to seduce guys in one way or another. It could be as innocent as getting you into the bar for a beer, or back to your hotel for a shag. Whether its connect four or connect two, there's a reasonably high chance she's on the game - higher if it was Pattaya and not Phuket. Even if she is freelancing, she'll unlikely see herself as a whore. And unless you're being fleeced via Western Union, it doesn't maker her a con woman either. A liar maybe, but that's a whole new thread.

YABS says:

she was employed by the bar
she then quit as it turned into a lady bar
she then worked for MYphukethome.com
now she is between jobs.
maybe a liar yes. shes never asked for any money.
she just seems often difficult to track down even though she calls me quite regularly. then when
you go to see her shes frequently having to make rushed last minute trips to bangkok or back home.
last time she said a katoey had stolen her money etc. just seems weird. she calls me up and wants to see me and then i go down there and shes
then really aloof.
she won't ;leave patong either .Loves the clubbing too much. but i mean patong is a shithole and i would thought most non game thai gilrs would think the same

Charlie says:

Thais are whores because they are the greediest people on earth and will do ANYTHING for money. selling one's pussy is just another way to get money. and the easier the better because thais are lazy and ineffective workers at "real" jobs and would prefer to do nothing more than watch their stupid tv shows, geen cow and talk with their friends on their cell phones. Being a hooker makes this do nothing dream a reality.

tonychang says:

Yabs
if she is fit and especially if she has the gift of the gab when it comes to farangs and dosnt appear to be skint even though working badly paid job chances are she has a sponsor or two.

TANAI KWAI says:

John,

"Much to my surprise, her family lived in a 3-walled hut where they picked the flies out of last night's tom-yum for breakfast."

This will haunt me for a while.

Yours is a brutal story. In hindsight, perhaps you hadn't really re-connected with her after your four years apart.

I am not proud to say that I have played just about every role in the personal drama you have described -- cuckold, cuckee, and winsome two-timer. (Coincidentally, Gimpy1 has played just about every role in the Thai television drama you have described, including that of the homophobic grease monkey ass-rapist, a role he has reprised twice to great acclaim.)

What is interesting and laudable, though, is how you responded to this crushing deception. Some would be consumed by their bitterness and seek to write off the whole country as a bunch of inscrutable, heartless, greedy cheats. They might be powerfully inclined to get on the first plane home in search of the solid... the familiar... the safe.

But not you, John (and not John U.). Instead, you stuck it out and continued to attack the Thai language with passion. And you have not permitted yourself to generalize about Thais based on your experience. In the end, you have used this experience to make you stronger and wiser.

I can only conclude you are a Texan -- the biggest-hearted, rootin' tootinest' kind of fay-rang this side 'a Rangoon.

(...)

TANAI KWAI says:

Err, okay, so maybe you generalize a little when you say:

"These people, much like my wife, are programmed from birth. This 'choice' is pumped into the very milk they suck from their mother's tit."

(just a bit)

Dana says:

TK--supporting your fellow species members is laudable but those who can't generalize are doomed to be constantly bewildered and disappointed and those who 'stick it out' are only admirable if successful. Personally, if I am in a group of lemmings headed for a cliff I am prone to generalize that the future looks unappealing and rather than 'stick it out' I opt for the more intelligent 'cut and run'. Only the survivors get to be philosophers.

TANAI KWAI says:

"Personally, if I am in a group of lemmings headed for a cliff I am prone to generalize that the future looks unappealing and rather than 'stick it out' I opt for the more intelligent 'cut and run'."

Yikes. That's a mindful. I may know what you mean, but not exactly because of what you wrote.

(...)

TANAI KWAI says:

(mindfull)

Craig says:

Hi All!

We're looking for guests for a TV show in the UK re Thai-Brit marriages - disasters AND success stories (which very rarely get reported on). If anyone would like to contact me by email or my number is 01603 752255 and I can call you right back. Thanks for your help. Craig

Om says:

Your article was very useful for many farangs who were about to fall into a trap... but it was really not fair for us, thai ladies...

I'm a thai student, used to do an internship as a receptionist in the popular area for foreigners...and I never thought that they were my victims, Nor did my colleagues... The reason to be really friendly and nice to all foreigners cos I just wanna make your day easier... I understood how you day could be mess if you didnt get any help from local people in another country... at least smiling, talking or being freindly could help you guys enough, that's what at least i could do, in order to help you... but eventually, we, thai ladies, never be able to get away from being fake or protitudes... The consequences of being generous were to be percieved as the same as those protitudes...

Thanks for clearer my attitude toward you, lordly farangs. I, Thai girl, would try to keep away from you guys just to help you out from financial problem and save myself from being percieved as a prostitude... and don't worry I will help you to proclaim how bad we are...

I wish you were happy being in thailand, blaming thai women and warning nice farang guys not to trust Thai women...

Last but not least, I hope you would b satisfied by my little help here... I guess this might be the last time I tried to help you, lordly farang...

YABS says:

Hi Om
where do you work?

Majic says:

Hi Om
Are you one of the many Thai women I see in the Internet shops everyday sending off your money making emails to lonely Farangs?
Because in spite of what you say I think you are!
Its too late now to make excuses for all the many thousands of "Farangs"(look up "Racialism and discrimination" for the word farang)who have all had their houses,cars,possesions and liftime savings stolen from them by Thai "ladies" who at the end of their stealing sprees can then be escalated to the middlle classes,purely because they have stolen money and are now sqeaky clean thanks to your totally corrupt government who aid and pass anti "Farang" laws to help you in your theft.
Sorry Thailand your country is still 30 years behind the western world and you will not join us by learning English and ripping us off.
Because for every farang that goes back to the west and tells everybody about the system here, your people will get poorer by lack of foreign money.WISE UP think ahead its not all about money on the table today.

Majic says:

Yabs
Stop being a victim all your life.You asked where "Om" works,should have been simple to work out i.e. The MINISTRY of THAILAND FALSE PRETENCES.
Note the use of "Lordly Farangs"(is this a term of endearment or disguised hate?) and do you think she is a sweet genuine person? who you would like to contact? if so then you have not lived in Thailand too long.

Majic says:

YABS
I dont mean to personally attack you but having read your previous letters on asking advice from the participants to this site under the heading "Is your Thai Sweetheart Really a Con Artist" I have to say you are green as grass
As you have not even bothered to read and digest the words of caution from the Website intro and the many contributers who have taken the time to wise you and many more up.
And then you go on to express personal doubts as to your relations/ship,come on man get real.Yeeees if it looks too good to be true and you are having doubts,then listen to your feelings and get the fuck out.

Ozman says:

OM
Don't take these negative postings too seriously. Often, they reflect a few bad experiences, which are generalized to be all-inclusive. Suggest you keep on being your good natured, helpful, smiling self. Suggest you read John U| July 2nd posting; very nicely put.

John:
A question about your g/f. Exchange student programmes - for westerners, at least - usually involves a reasonable amount of personal expense for the student. This would be considerable in Thai terms. If this is so then how did she get that money to study in the US given her impoverished living conditions in LOS? That would have been a real alert signal from the start.

If you had limited contact with her for at least four years what exactly were you expecting? That she would stay at home and knit all the time, particularly after exposure to US culture? You simply became only one option for her and happened to be the first to pop the question. Do you really believe Farang women would be any more loyal under those conditions? I appreciate you were supporting her (financial crutch for 5 yrs) but women of any culture need more than just cursory contact over that time period to prevent them straying.

Your comments suggest you strayed as well (abnormal if u did not). By then she probably had a few Farangs supporting her family and wanted (needed?) that support to continue after u married.

Your only excuse, and blessing, is that you are young. Put it behind you and think about this: a medical study, on totally unrelated research, accidentally found that the husbands (or I guess the nominated father) were not the genetic fathers in 20% of the births in a major hospital in Melbourne (Oz). I can't imagine US statistics are going to be too different.

La donna e mobile! (woman is fickle, like a feather in the wind.. as the song goes). That was not written about Thai women! Nor was it written yesterday! But, mostly, there is method to that fickleness such as the infusion of better (ie non-wimp) genes into some of her offspring, security needs etc.

YABS says:

MAJIC
I think you are too negative. From what you are saying
you obviuosly thin k all or most thai ladies are scheming hoes. They aren't. i mean if they ahve a job and support themselves then whats wrong with that? Not all of them are after our money.
there are good and bad people everywhere but sometimes it difficult to tell!
In thailnd if they are freelancers or work
as a bar girl then obvioulsy it is easy to spot
but some are more subtle.
I have not giben the lady in question any money but just wonder whetehr i'm wasting my time with
POTENTIAL hooker! shes never asked me for any money.
So if you are such a sage, where would you suggest going to find a "good" girl?

Majic says:

Yabs
No i dont think all Thai women are prostitutes or scheming goldiggers.I have a very lovely Girlfriend who I trust implicitly and she is as honest as anyone i have ever known.But she does not have a Bargirl/Service background,left university at 23 and went straight to work in a sales career,so nothing wrong with a working girl,quite the contrary.

She doesnt ask me for money either(i used to give it to her anyway) but now she does not need to ask as we have a small business,which she works hard at,and earns her money.

My Ex girlfriend was a teacher from a strong academic family background,again a very honest woman(i still see her as my best friend and we still get on very well)
So although im not proffessing to be a "Sage" or a "know all" but you did ask me,so I would suggest a good Family Background and Educational qualifications, plus a full work history,could give you half a chance of meeting a decent woman.

I live here permanently and never a week goes by without hearing about yet another farang has been or is being ripped off for everything.
Currently 2 of my friends are being worked over by their Thai "ladies"one has lost 500,000 bahts and all his property and she still wants more.

The other one is on target to lose 2 houses which he put in her name,the 4x4,furniture,and a lot of money.
From my observations it does not matter where they get their money from here,Thai culture dictates they are smart and the Farang is stupid to lose it.
Their status is elevated because they now have money,the word fraud or theft does not come into it.Believe me this kind of thing is going on wholesale in Thailand.
Now im sure you are not a liar so when you say your girlfriend does not ask for money and neither do you give,all I can say is that you are a very lucky man in Thailand.

I wish you luck in finding a good and honest woman,(a lovely face,beautiful eyes,the body of a model, is not a good indication of character) but it will not happen over night,there will be many false starts and heartaches in between,its part of the education process here.

Once you have been through the emotional/money mincer a few times,then you get lucky.

Good hunting.

Farangafied says:

There is this sweet Thai girl i met in Holland last year...No not amsterdam either, about two hours away in eindoven. I met her purely on accident while i was there on business. She has been in holland for 5 years on a visa she says. I have flown back a few times to visit her and have not seen her get a single phone call from another man once while i was there. I also stay with her at her house while im there... Just wondering how long can one stay in holland legit without a visa? Is my thai princess a con woman?

NOOB says:

Back from my second visit to LOS .
if u read my post ( NOOB July 21 2004 ) u know the story .
This is part 2 .
This second trip i spent 8 days all days all night with my Thai sweety , 5 days in Samui and 3 more in Bangkok of the overall 20
days of my vacation .
She could not take more days off her work without getting into troubles .
During this time she was kind of perfect , never asked for money , paid the flight to Samui,
always buying me T-shirts or something .

After this 10 days she went back to work just to sleep with me every night and wake up at 5.30 am ( sigh ) to go work .
When she was not with me she was calling all the times and asking what i need ,
sometimes sending me the fruit i like directly at my hotel ( i felt really flattered about it ) .
When she pay in advance she never wants money back although when i give money to her to buy something i never get
the change ( usually around hundred bath or little more ) .

I bought her some clothes , total spent less than a 100 euros .
She is used to lend money to her sister and friends ( weird !! ) very easily and this is something i complained her but ..

She leaves in a room with her sister and works 30 days per month making up to 20 /25.000 baht that i know to be quite above the average.

I met her boss and sister ( at her work place ) and friends , they all look ok ,
but still something is telling me not trust her completely .

Now i am back in my own country and we call each other every day.
Having a good job here is the only reason that prevents me from rushing in LOS ( my friend that lives in Thailand can easily
provide me with a work permit )

I dont feel now like i want to commit but spending a year in Thailand seems to be a very interesting experience anyway
although the leap is quantum . Every suggestion is more that welcome .

S- says:

FARANGFIED,

Can you send me an email please?

seanie says:

Quick Question - I met this girl on a thai singles website about 2 months ago.. I'm going to see her in 2 weeks. She's send me naked photos of her, and had cybersex with me now over her video webcam.

She is a nurse... appears to make ok money. Mom & dad passed away about 9 years ago she says..

Is this normal? I read all these postings about how thai girls are this and that... I did have a couple of commercial ones my 1st trip.. and have been looking for regular ones?

She's always at home or work..

Thoughts?

I have no idea whether is is a freelancer or what... its just so weird. But has a nice muff I tell you...

Sean

Yabs says:

Magic
You sound like you know waht you are talking about.
Where would you suggest trying to meet the more middle class girls? Apart from bars
the only optioin for farangs seem to be the department stores and hotels. salons are as
good/bad as bars in my experinece. Ie the girls
in salons although they have a job have exactly the same mindset as the bar girl. in my experience anyway. Most are usually ex bargirls anyway.

David says:

I'm a western man that has met a young Thai woman that appears to be on the up and up. She works for the government (I have been to her office) and she has introduced me to all of her family and friends. She is always available by phone when I am not in Thailand (I have visited 3 times, with a 4th trip planned in a few weeks). It is clear to me that she does not have any other men in her life since meeting me.

The only contradiction, or should I say concern based upon what you commented on is that she certainly was not sexually shy. Actually, she came accross extremely experienced. Her explanation was that she had been taught by an older, female friend and that I am the first man that she has ever experienced except for a rape that occured many years ago. The initial story was that the rape occured when she was 22, then later when she said that she was 19.

Actually, I would not care so much about her having experience previous to meeting me, but it is the lieing about it that has me troubled. Any comments?

dtoodman says:

Poor guys just can't get it through their heads. Maybe go back for the same ones, but keep your distance. Familiarity/generosity breeds contempt. You will find a nice stable of gals that will have a mutual understanding, until some poor chump takes them home to the west. Black or British guys do the best. I get emails from these westward ho's all the time. They will always be my friends and confidants. I am a fat grey haired guy in my 50's but I always have many nice gals that never ask to go sopping, and are quite pleased with pleasing me for a very paltry sum. I see farhang 1/2 my age with narlies and I wonder what the women look like in their town or if they are sporting Kass-buggah goggles. I might spring for a massage or a dinner, maybe a surprise gift on their birthday but that is it. I love them more than any woman I dated or was married to, but I realize that they don't want me as a lover. It is quite nice that way. If I hadn't had a couple of bad experiences early in the game, and back home I might have been taken too. Monogamy doesnt cut it in the far east!

logos says:

Hi there

Does anyone know 'Cherry', 28 year old resident of BNGK, voluptuous, very pretty, also known as Thanya?

If you do, please post your comments as I have some interesting news for you.

Logos.

shuggie says:

Here's an idea -

Start a website where sponsors can register the name/DOB/tattoo description of their tilaks.

I'm sure you'd save alot of guys alot of money/heartache.

Slick Steve says:

"Thailand's upper classes are sometimes fluent but they have good grammar and favour an American accent."

Really? All the thai i know, and even the ones i met in Thailand have a rather "british-aussie" accent.

getreal says:

After reading through a majority of posts on this topic I felt obligated to respond.

My first impression is that most of these guys who are hell bent on giving the majority of Thai women a bad name have either:

1) been raked through the coals in another country already (by farang I am sure) hence their immense distrust of anyone else going forward

2) no clue as to establishing, discovering and maintaining a truely compatible human relationship with a Thai woman or any other woman

3) no idea regarding Thai culture or family

4) such an ego about being farang that they take advantage of circumstances... hence from experience with these farang do alot of "struggling" Thai women learn how to dish it back. You will reap what you sow...

Women from all over the world basically start out the same. Life circumstances and opportunities or the lack of them decide they path they must take. They get molded by the people they come in contact with and the circumstances they live under... so if you see a brutally hardened woman... ask yourself how did she get this way... did you contribute to this at all?... your friends... their actions...

Most Thais are very family oriented and will sell their souls to provide for their families if left with no other alternative.

This is an aspect of Thais that I truely love and respect! I would now do anything for my Thai family! This initially took some time to swallow comfortably because I was raised with the mentality of taking care of #1 first and fore-most (American). After living with and getting to know true Thai (not those whose outward appearance and actions has all been formed by contact with farang) I opened my heart, soul and yes sometimes checkbook and became part of this Thai family. I have never been happier or more fulfilled in my life!

For those of you who are starring at the word checkbook yes I paid for expenses in the US for my Thai sister to take some English classes which allowed her to fulfill some of her dreams... was reciprocated 3 fold in Thailand by my Thai family over and over again.

Its a totally different way of thinking and seeing the world. At first I was resistant and protective of my boundaries... but with time and knowledge I got to truely know the Thai woman and her family that now makes up the best part of my life. My wife gave up ALOT in Thailand to be with me... for that I love her and only her all the more.

So for those of you who are so hell bound on making Thai women out to be con artists... just think where they have learned it all from and why.
Then look in the mirror. Loose the ego!

Life - its all about the souls we touch and how they touch us.

jeff2 says:

Want some advice.

I visited Thailand this summer with a friend. Had a great time with the ladies and made sure I didn't get financially stung by any of them. However, my friend (a young good looking guy) ended up staying 2 months in Kanchanaburi with a girl who owned a bar. He has completely fallen for her and supposedly so has she for him. The strange thing is that she also works in Denmark running a massage parlour and seems to have more money than my friend. She also gave him some jewelry that she admitted had come from a former farang boyfriend. I have observed how close they seem and he is going out to thailand soon to live. Please advise whether anyone sees anything suspicious about this. He has met her family and she has been to the UK to stay with his. Is it possible that there are honest Thai girls?

getreal says:

Yes there are honest women out there. But.. like with any relationship it does take time to really get to know one another.

Also, living in Thailand is alot different than vacationing there. This will be somewhat of a shock. If your friend does not know the language he will be at the mercy of his girlfriend and her family/friends in terms of being dependent on them for many things. If he is going to live with her... and her parents know ... and there has been no mention of marriage or engagement then I might ask alot more questions. If he is going to live with the parents then I would think you have less to be concerned with.

Have they talked about marriage and is she willing to follow him to the UK and give up what she has established workwise? If so, what would she do in the UK?

If she is not willing to follow him, how will your friend survive in Thailand? The minimum amount of cash in the bank has recently gone up as well as the qualifications to get a work permit. If your friend is over 35 he can forget working for any Thai company other than maybe his girlfriend.

Alot to think about and ponder. Pursue your dreams but tread carefully as in any new relationship. :-)

jeff2 says:

Thanks for the advice. I know that he has all the right intentions i.e learn Thai etc and I'm not sure about the marriage question although he has mentioned that he'd be up for it. The confusing part is that according to everyone on the site, Thai culture is very traditional and conservative, although you certainly wouldn't think so by the way some of the Thai girls behave. To be honest I can't see what my friend has to lose - apart from his heart. It'll be good to go out and visit him aswell! She owns a bar and he will be working there in the evening. I can't wait!

getreal says:

I really hope that everything works out very well for the both of them! I really enjoy Thai weddings... especially Northern style. :-)

In regards to your statement:

"Thai culture is very traditional and conservative ... although you certainly wouldn't think so by the way some of the Thai girls behave"

... my wife said something that might have some relevance: "a penny will attract a penny, a quarter will attract a quarter, a dollar will attract a dollar...", etc.

Typically if you are looking for someone of quality that is compatable with yourself you will filter out those who are not in the same ballpark - be it higher or lower. How you do the filtering is an individual thing... be it looks, education, social status, physical location, personality, interests, ethnicity, etc... Its actually a wonderful thing... there is someone out there who is compatible for just about everyone... the secret is to find them or have them find you.

I think this is a great opportunity for your friend... I know that I have never been happier ... all because I pursued and married my beautiful and intelligent Thai wife! :-) I still ask her why she married me! 555555

VenturaLaw says:

I met a young Isaan lady who was an officer working for the Thai government. She had a poor upbringing and swears that all she wanted to do is meet a falong (sp?). When she was 6 years old she had a crush on Ronald Reagan. This worked for me - she is educated, has a great sense of humor, conservative (although not in all areas), and is learning English at an incredible rate of speed. It seems that she has it all, however, the person who started this forum has caused me concern. I am 26 years older than this young lady, and although I am quite good looking, perhaps, although I never so thought before now, I may be naive. I have never had children, and was looking forward to so doing with her. We conversed via email for more than a year prior to my 1st visit to Thailand. Now I have been there 4 times in the last 8 months, and have brought her home with me. I guess we'll see if I have just cause for concern.

wilbur says:

VL:

Every case is different. There is no reason built into the "system" to ensure that any of these relationships will fail, OR succeed.

Here are some suggestions. Although they are distilled from the collective wisdom of the posters on this site, I also have some experience along these lines:

You have selected a mate who is far younger than you. Let her be young if she needs it. You would hardly expect a farang girl who was this much younger than you to act your age.

Don't make her feel trapped. Let her go back to Thailand if she needs it. Let her feel that she could go any time she wants.

Just as with a farang girl, you are not bulletproof from other guys trying to steal, or at least drill, your girlfriend. Face it: If you have taken her back to the West, she is probably the best-looking girl for at least a 100-mile radius. Expect occasional forays from other guys; try not to get too jealous. If she's going to be good to you she will do it without your help; if not, nothing you do will make any difference.

Keep in mind that you don't have to trust the whole world, only her. Let her have friends. If she's trustworthy, treat her that way and she will respond with faithfulness, just as a farang girl would. However, keep your eyes peeled, and don't give her any more trust than she has earned.

Make sure you know, really KNOW, this girl before making any decisions. A year of starry-eyed e-mailing is nothing compared to a week snowed into a cabin somewhere. I hate cliches, but time wounds all heels. Give her time, and she will eventually reveal what she REALLY is.

Be realistic. I don't believe a Thai girl who wants to do right by you is any more likely to fail than a farang girl who wants to do right by you. (Sorry to damn with faint praise.) However, beware. For whatever reason, these girls can be like a drug, and some of us let them get away with a whole lot of shit that we would NEVER put up with from a farang girl.

I would be very careful about having kids. Children bind you to your partner in two main ways: Due to the natural order of things, we bond with our children very strongly. This will give your partner great leverage over you. If she doesn't have your best interests at heart, she will be able to use this lever to take advantage of your relationship with the kid, such as by stepping out with other guys or what have you, and you will be hesitant to chuck her out because of the kid. Also, if it's your money she wants, a kid is a sure-fire way to get her hands on it, especially if you cohabitate or get married in the US or Europe, or if the kid is a citizen of your country(i.e. born there).

About marriage, kids and the like, my rule of thumb is: If it's a good idea today, it will be a good idea tomorrow. No rush. Be prepared; know what you are deciding; do your homework. Make sure it's right for you. Make sure you do the at least the same amount of research before you make this decision as you did before you bought your last car. You'd be amazed at how many guys get married, have kids, buy houses with their mates etc., and don't even know the legal aspects and ramifications of their decision.

Keep in mind: If this relationship fails, you can always go out and get another girlfriend in Thailand OR where you live. You hint that this girl has boosted your confidence. If things don't work out, take that gift from her, and use it to find another girl. They're out there.

Finally, have fun. Thais place great value on fun, laughter and light-heartness. Their philosophy is quite a lot like mine: If it ain't fun, it ain't shit. Make your life a fun place to live, as much as you can given the practical reality that you (presumably) don't live in a vacation paradise year-round as she did. You will probably find that you enjoy your own life more besides.

A word about this blog: It is not clear by your post how much of the blog you've read. However, the head blogster (David) is on hiatus, and a bunch of us regulars lurk and post here. We really like this place on the web, and sincerely hope he will come back.

You might have noticed that there is a flame war going in another thread. My posting here might attract the attention of the other poster (most decidedly NOT a regular) to try carrying that over to this thread. If that happens, my advice is: Don't worry, don't read his posts, and don't respond to him in any way. It won't help.

If you care to, you can go ahead and read some of that other thread so you know the two names the other poster is posting under. However, it's probably not necessary, as you will immediately recognize the poster in question if he posts in this thread. Don't confuse that dreck with what normally goes on here. If you intend to make a constructive contribution to this blog, we regulars welcome you, and you will be treated with respect.

- wilbur

Horses Blinker says:

Sorry W., but even though I have to agree with some of what you say in the other thread you are starting to become just a little bit egomaniacal. I remember your posts from long ago and it seems to me that you've "grown" as a persona (at least literary-wise) over the past weeks and months. From the tone of your latest effort on this thread it would appear that you've self appointed yourself as the daddy of MS in David's absence. It has to be said that your ego is writing checks your body can't cash (bonus points if you can name the 80's film reference).
All that aside, you do make some real sense in advising yet another virgin on the do's and dont's of getting it on long term with a Thai sweetheart. Just don't try to be self deprecating at the start of your post by claimimg that you are the moderator of all reason and then complete by claiming that you are, in fact, GOD.

By the way, I would think (my opinion only) that you should get back to the topics in the threads where you post. Have you noticed that no-one else seems to comment any more? Did you think that it was because everyone couldn't wait for your next installment of Tinky-bashing? I think not. I for one am more than a little disapointed that you're wasting your time on that fruitless vendetta and in the process killing off the remaining active threads in MS. At least use your talents to post an article to which we all have an opinion and therefore open the forum to some other penmeisters - I would think that it may then become more fun for us all don't you? Otherwise it's a case of "phuut hoo sai taloot hoo qwaa" (Goes in one ear and out the other).

Cheers

HB

wilbur says:

HB:

I appreciate your post. If I may:

As far as my egotistical tone in the other thread, that is a flame war. Would you want to be judged by your posts if you were drawn into one? C'mon, don't say it ain't possible!

As far as my tone on this thead, I believe I have made exactly one posting, that which you praise. I simply wanted to warn an obvious new poster that there was a flame war going on, and that the other participant might follow me around the board. Did I err in suggesting that the new poster not encourage the other participant to infect the rest of the board?

As far as that flame war "silencing" other posters, consider: In the heyday of Mango Sauce there were often flame wars going in one or more threads, while meaningful discussions were going on in others. Often they involved the same personalities!

Besides, I urge you to take a cruise around the other threads. You will quickly notice two things: 1) Nobody was posting anyway, at least until Tanai Kwai and I started that discussion in the other thread, and 2) My recent posts in every other thread but the flame-war one have been on-topic and (at least in my mind) had at least some value.

HB, as I have said many times, in many other threads, I simply seek interesting dialog. I encourage everybody, even the other flame war participant, to do the same (you have seen me repeatedly say that in that thread if you had the stomach to read the whole thing). I look forward to more interesting dialog with you, the other regulars, and anybody else.

- wilbur

Horses Blinker says:

'bur,

I can't argue with that.

I have, however, been a regular reader of MS although since David's departure I have only returned recently. I have instead been satisfying my literary urges by attempting the BK Post's cryptic crossword instead. (Anybody got 26 Across - ??R?OT - Rodent causing a setback to a cat and a sheep). You should all try it. It might help TK/TW in his/their efforts to show 'bur a thing or two by submitting greater than mono-sylabic posts in future. (Not that I'm taking sides).

Anyway, it would be a bit unfair of me to join the fray without actually saying anything relevant to the topic at hand. Now what was it again....something about Thai BG's being con-artists right?

I must admit never to having met a Thai girl who was a blagger - at least she didn't tell me she was. I've never been taken to the cleaners, humped and dumped, ripped off, debagged and raddished or given a dose. Actually I would rather give them the LOT than have them give me anything if you know what I mean.

Bangkok really is Disneyland for men though. Anybody who comes here and goes home complaining really needs to get a grip. I (like most other farangs coming to Thailand for the first time) went bananas for a couple of months revealing my sexual proclivities to anyone who would join in. If I'd ever had a list of things to do before I popped them (my clogs) I would have probably ticked off more in that period than in the previous decade.

My point is that I didn't complain then and am not complaining now. I just get bored listening to all these geezers who assume the right to "save" yet another BG from prostitution. Snore.....Yawn.....Here we go again.

I do have a Thai girlfriend and have done for 3 years - she's like any other farang bird but a bit more jealous and an absolute nightmare when "mens" is on.

The funny thing is though that I had a girl whom I used to work with calling me up at all times of the night and my girlfriend handled it and gave me no flack. It was like she trusted me implicitly. Next time I go out without her though - I get called every 30 minutes and always end up having a huge row. I know we're not supposed to understand women but jeezus - this is ridiculous.

Anyway, the only difference between Thai women and farang birds is the size of their jugs. That's what I miss. A nice big pair of wobbly devils dumplings sporting aureole like dinner plates and nipples like carpenters' thumbs. Ooooooh. I'll be back later, got something to do......

Sandy says:

"A nice big pair of wobbly devil dumplings sporting aureolae
like dinner plates and nipples like carpenters' thumbs."

Who needs smut; ooohh, ahhh.....yesss!!!

I'm done.

Sandy

getreal says:

Good evening VenturaLaw,

I just read your post and had just a few comments. First of all there are alot of Thai women who are interested in farang because they have the belief that they are more likely to be faithful than most of their Thai counterparts. It sounds to me as if she wants stability in her partner hence the age difference.

As far as the age difference, you will not run as many issues as you would within a farang relationship. One of the previous post sounds right on the money regarding building an atmosphere where she can be her own age and yet grow closer to you as a result of the confidence and support you show.

She will look to you to do alot of the leading if not all of it. As she gains confidence in her abilities and in your relationship let her test her own wings. Always treat her as an equal partner in the relationship you both decide to build.

If you have concerns, try to discuss them with her. Be patient and consistent as she may not completely comprehend what you are trying to express. Consistency and understanding will go a very long way. Just remember that she actually has a bigger stake in this relationship being in a different country with no family or friends around for support.

If you sincerely take an interest and try to learn about Thai culture, customs and expectations your will understand alot more about your partner. Thais are a wonderful people and if you do not act like a typical foreigner you will be welcome everywhere you go! My only regret is that I did not meet my wife earlier when she in her 20's!

My Thai wife agrees that if she is a 'good' girl that she is interested in you because you are a 'good and stable' guy and is placing her trust in you. If you never break that trust you will have a very fulfilling life! Learn to communicate with your partner openly. While you both may not understand each others languages, actions speak louder and more clearly than words! Good luck!

If she ends up in the States you have another Thai connection here if she ever needs one.

I hope you have a very Happy New Year

smartass says:

It's a little careless to say 'Thai girls'.

Let's say 'Thai bar girls' or else 'Thai girls you meet in a bar for westerners'.

I don't think good Thai girls go to such a place. They prefer going to an all-Thai bar or else expensive bars.

wilbur says:

Hi, Smartass (no offence, you picked the name):

Thanks for this comment, because it lets me open a line of discussion I have kicked around before in other threads: the "good girls" versus "bar girls" issue.

I won't waste a lot of time beating around the bush. Let's assume that your definition of the term "good girl" is, " a girl who doesn't now and never has sold sex." It's my contention that you can't easily, or even possibly, tell these girls apart from their bush-bartering sisters.

I know college-educated Thai girls with perfect English who do wax shows and have blown more guys than the Pacific Trade Winds, and I know Buriram peasant girls who have had 1,000 paying punters up their asses who now work as waitresses in pizza joints and counter girls in mini-marts and receptionists for hotels and companies. How do you, Smartass, tell them apart? What are the "distinguishing marks"? I sure as hell don't know!

To put an even finer point on this: I'll take an educated guess and say that you are involved with one (or more) "good" Thai girls. Unless you have been following your girl(s) around since birth, what objective proof (that was, OBJECTIVE proof) would you offer that they have never opened the magic moisture muffin in order to pay this month's rent, or to make sure that mamma's buffalo gets the medicine it needs? And now, the next logical question: If you can't objectively and certainly tell "good" girls apart from their beaver-bartering sisters with any degree of certainty, where does that leave your comment?

Enquiring minds want to know.

- wilbur

Dave says:

I fell hook line and sinker for EVERY SINGLE point mentioned above. I knew something was up, and I told her I had to leave on business for a few weeks and for her to start looking for a new apartment for us both for when I returned.

Luckily, my logic returned when I boarded that plane. All I ended up leaving was a pair of tracksuit bottoms :)

I was 21 at the time, and I REALLY believed it. She seemed so sincere. I cringe reading others stories but am delighted that I got out.

Lesson learned.
Thanks too for all the pointers mangosauce, at least that urge to go back to see her has been... well, killed.

bobcat1522 says:

Married the type of Thai lady that is described above. Limited English, no education, low social status, greedy relatives, Now married for 12 happy years and in love more now then when we married. She works 40 hours plus a week, sends money to Thailand monthly and is hard worker. She is faithful, even though I visit the Philippines for fun and is American all the way. I married the best. So there........

Family woman looking for man who has never been to Thailand but that likes good sex!! says:

I am writing to you with a story from the other side of the coin. My partner unfortunately has many trashy friends who work for 9 months a year, jack in their business without giving the taxman a penny, and spend the other 3 months on one long sexual mission in thailand to shag as many whores as possible and of all ages. They constantly boast about it and would not only relish in telling my partner every sordid detail but show him pictures and invite him to go with them, showing nothing but pure disrespect for our relationship.

One in particular is about 6ft 6 tall and sadly for him, 6ft 6 round. A truly obese creature that has always visited whores and unsurprisingly cannot get a fuck anywhere else. Well he has a child by a whore already, abandoned in an orphanage in the North of Thailand because the mother has gone to Dubai to find wealthier men!

When my partner and I went through a trying financial patch after being together for about five years (and believing we were soul mates) he exploded, and within two weeks was trotting off, using various excuses that we were over, to find out what wonders were waiting for him in Bankok with his friend Andy. At this point, when I knew he'd bought his ticket, I felt numb. We have a two year old son and I could not ever envisage myself wanting to see or speak to this evil, revolting man again. There had never been anything wrong with our sex life. We were always at it and it was good for both of us. I could not bring myself to talk to him for 4 months.

Eventually I arranged for him to visit his son,and determined to make him see what he had stupidly lost,looked wonderful, and ignored him completely walking by him with my head in the air. Of course it worked and within two weeks we were texting one another and it was obvious that however hard i tried to ignore it that I still loved him.

Ever since then the rebuilding process has been ongoing. He knew what the women were like before he went there but never expected it to be so "in your face" He was constantly badgered by desperate women. They all did the sobbing poverty line on him. They try to get unsuspecting,(or really just stupid) men to fuck without condoms so they can say they have their child later, when they don't at all or it's someone elses!! One whore latched on to him and
he promised to send her money to stop 'dancing' as they elegantly call fucking other men, so that she would just save herself just for him!! Oh how cute and devious and evil. She threatened him to not mess her around. (Apparently her father had killed a man!!) She rang him up for months when he got back to get money out of him. I had to send her a text in the end to which she returned him a text saying HE was the devil man!

The country is run by men and it is standard to 'sell' your wife for sex. Men have no respect for women at all. They are brought up as slaves to men and to kiss the ground they walk on. Is it any wonder they can't wait to get out of their own country, even on the back of a donkey, or white man, and the older, fatter or uglier you are the better their chances are, as there is no partner expected. Of course a rich one, the promise of a business, etc is a bonus! Of course once they are away from their hell of a country they can then look for a younger, more attractive, even richer one!!! A whore though will always be a whore.

However the damage was far worse here. I have been battling with the 'whys' over and over again.

How many of the men writing here are married or have partners? Yeah I am probably stupid to try to resolve things but not as stupid as the evil act of going there. If you ask me not only are the whores evil but the men who visit, stupid and many evil too, like the men who told my partner to go and even my partner himself.

You see, we want to be a family, and I can forgive him, but I will never forget. That eats away at you and is the worst thing ever. I love him but hate him for what he has done to my mind. How long can we survive?, how long will our family last? Was it really worth risking the loss of a family? Just for a fuck with an evil conwoman.

Peter says:

Family woman,
Leave the guy alone. The tone of your comment is jaded and insecure.

Your husband needs to grow some balls and leave your dumpy ass.

BigUnit says:

Family woman... I'm not going to sit here and pick apart your common ignorance based misconceptions about what goes on in a country that you have never been to and know nothing about, however I can't help but to chuckle at it.

Where are these observations and opinions coming from? your "partner"? a first timer to Thailand who was led straight to the red light districts? Everyone in here can surely remember their first time to Thailand and I'll say it nicely for you, your partner hasn't the faintest clue about what goes on in Thailand.

It's to bad your partner's loser buddies from work weren't able to discern the fact that your partner is the type of man that should just stay home on vacation. Or maybe he just came back and fed you a load of crap, exactly what he figured you wanted to hear about this evil place on earth. Whatever the case, you both look like fools now.

jester says:

90% are pretty devious reguardless of where you meet them, but why the hell would you marry a hooker, it dont make sense

Mick from Isle of Man says:

BigUnit - another farang elitist who thinks he knows about a secret culture called Thailand. Culture, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. Just like in farangland, Thais are not a homogenous set. Spend a life studying Thai culture but you still will know little more than the humble househusband in Roxbury who dreams of LOS but has never been. Big Unit you have nothing over on anybody, other than your own delusions.

Carla says:

We western girls got better pussies...but u guyz r nuts.....u all will go straight to hell....fuck off

Jack Wow says:

Seems like a sweet girl.

Bangkokram says:

Hey Carla,
After many years studying in depth the subject of womens Pussies. I can catorgorically say that Thai Pussies are a 100 times better than their western counterparts.

I recall a certain 40ish UK bird who was cheating on her husband with everything and everyone in the city. She had four children and a pussy more like that of an expolded tin of corn beef. Upon sight I managed to extrude myself from said encounter, I could go on. Only one women I ever monstered in the UK had what I would call a mouse ear pussy like the Thai girls. Even the full on hard core Thai working girls have better pussies than the camel toed girls in the UK.

So Carla, I think you are incorrect in what you say, but thanks for the comment it gave me a long overdue chance to slag off a farang bird.

PS Fuck off!

philH says:

There are two girls I want to meet in Thailand cos they must be real little hotties. Their names are Off and All.

Loads of people tell me fuck Off and everyone tells me fuck All.

Andy says:

Wonder what Carla's definition of "better" entails in the pussy dept?
Certainly labia that looks like someone's trying to push an inner tube through your letter box might be a "better" vista of Western genitalia. As are ginger pubes of course.
Anybody remember Dr Who and his "Tardis?"
- An amazing space / time travel machine; it looked like a small, old-fashioned police box from the outside, but inside its "4th Dimension" confines, it was like the Albert Hall. A bit like a few girls I can recall...

TANAI KWAI says:

"Wonder what Carla's definition of "better" entails in the pussy dept?"

Or as Connery might say, "the pushy dept."

I met this really vile farang in his late 60's when I first visited BKK. He was utterly obsessed with this topic.

When he wanted to convey the experience of vaginal intercourse with a particular girl he deployed a comprehensive vagi-jargon to describe the experience far beyond, for example, "she's tight." (Indeed, I think he might have had enough canned phrases for a whole Cheap Trick album.)

Of these terms, the ones I remember most vividly were "she's got toys in her box" and "she's got a shallow box." Pretty evocative.

I am informed by a knowing Brit that there is some kind of laser procedure available to tighten the organ, which is said to enjoy some popularity among the working girls who start to resemble Dodger Stadium down south.

Bangkokram says:

Sorry Carla, got off on the wrong foot!

I agree, pussies in the UK are alot beeter cared for than the poor scabby felines we see in the gutters of bangkok, trying to avoid being a Soi Dogs next meal.

UK Pussies have pedigree names and your old Aunt Nell loves to stroke her pussy.

So Carla, again i'm sorry I thought you were on about a womans doo dah!

PS Carla, your're not the Carla I met in 1986 at Romeo's in Derby who had a cunt like a bucket full of Salmon?