Is your Thai sweetheart really a conwoman?

Peter J Mathias says:

Is this always the case, are; they all fucking con artists, yea yea I know, this is 99.95 certain to be true...

mike roberts says:

Not just Thailand old son, the Philippines I think invented the scams above when the yanks were there, the Thai girls have merley perfected them

wina.. :) says:

Wow....It?s nice to hear some opinion about Thai girls...I?m the one also.

I could give you some idea...when you would like to have (really) nice girl...looking for girl in the collage or University...Look for urban girl..with education.
How?...
Being Volunteer, teacher or ...about education..there ..you get more chance!!...

ps...I still have one nice single friend...living(+working in Ireland).

bob says:

Some thai girls like to have sex for free. Usually you have to be young and handsome, though. I wasn't but some seem to like it anyway.
And most of the ones who marry and move abroad seem to be ok.
Considering which assholes most men who go to LOS are it's no wonder they get ripped off.
If you want to be happy for the rest of your life, get an ugly gilr to mary you...

RenÈ says:

yes indeed, it is nice to hear some opinion about Thai girls...I?m the one also.
I¥m agree with BOB: Some thai girls like to have sex for free. Usually you have to be young and handsome, is correct. I¥m happy born as a handsome men, i¥m 33, not mary and have no children. Maybe what I¥m doing is wrong, but I don¥t like to break hearts. My opinion is: you are responsible of your own life, if you are ugly and marry a beautiful thai angel, you can get be fucket up. Life is hard, but for those girls more than you. Those girls have nothing to lose, you are: your face and money.
At the end you get a wife of your own color. So I think it¥s just a game, but beware of your healt and the poor girls heart, they are humen too you know. Many men talk bad about thai girls, just look at yourselfe. I must also become a bether men then what I am now. For example, sometimes they like me and wan to stay with me. They even buy me drinks of the money they get every month from there world wide boyfriends.
Good luck and think with your brain.

David T says:

I agree with alot of the comments made about Thai girls and how you should be wary, however my story is turning out nicely.
I am 29 now and used to live in Bangkok 3 years ago and had the usual merry go round of meeting women that were not suited to me or had false intentions, however I met a girl 2 years my elder 2 weeks before I left for England (In Lucifer Disco) who I quite liked but didn't trust at the time.
Back in England I kept in touch with her and came back to visit her in Thailand twice in a year. She eventually came over to England and we are now happily married and both working in England. She had preveously studied English here and in America so her understanding of Western life is better than the average Thai which is a massive help. I have visited her family in Lampang recently as we had a Thai wedding ceremony there to respect them.
My wife has always said she wanted to work in England and not rely on me. She now works for a big company here and we share and pay everything half and half.
It has helped us greatly that my wife has a reasonable understanding of western culture (having studied abroad) and this is something that most Thai's do not have the opportunity or willing to do.
It also has alot to do with her attitude and approach to give and take, not take, take, take.
Its worked out well for me so far so I don't see why it can't work out for other people.....

Cheers
David

sunglasses ron says:

pufftas

your lot aren't real men

i remmeber teh west brom changing room in teh 0's, big cyrille wandering about with his old fella out, magnificent sight........

you lot would put a frock on him and get him to suck you off before giving him a ham shandy

get off teh internet and play sports, get it out of your system, you blouses

go one, out

have it

Chopper Harris says:

Nice one Ron

I remember playin in the FA cup back in the 60's. Took a right pastin of this geezer who played for The Arsenal - can't remember is name - ginger cunt with long sidies and his shorts up the crack of his arse. Anyway, the spongeman comes on to sort me out. Took a two footer on the back of the left Jake. I gets up, takes the bucket of water off the spongeman and chases the ging all over the pitch. Drowns the cunt. The crowd laughed, the players laughed, even the ginger cunt laughed. I had the last laugh though. Fourteen stitches and I gets up at the back stick in the last few minutes to pop in the winner. Blew the win bonus on a slapper down Bayswater and a ruby. Happy days.

Water festivals. I've shit em.

Tim H says:

"Each year, thousands of western men marry a Thai girl only to discover that she is a con-woman. "

Thousands? Are you sure? You have some proof of this rather amazing statistic put forth as if it is fact?

[Because every single one of them has posted his story to Stickman's website - David]

... says:

Yeah..this is cool and so true man.. nearly all girls in our school fits the describtion above...and thank god..i don't have girlfriend from our school^^

never touch girls in Bangkok, 99% prositude...one of my friend gave me the same advise also ^^

Blick says:

Western women do not find financial success attractive? I beg to differ..............Thai women just ask for alot LESS and they know they are not worth a penny more.

buzzballs ryan says:

hey u guys if u want love in thailand buy a fucking dog and remember a wank is money in the bank

Billy says:

Unless you find a well educated Thai girl who can converse in English, you are wasting your time looking for a long time relationship in Thailand.

It's a bar girl's job to lie and cheat, just remember that.

One exception, find a girl who has just started in the bar (for the first time, and get her away from the influence of her peers), you might be lucky.

usvirgin says:

Billy,

Don't forget, you'll still have to deal with the influence of her family.

John U says:

Chopper,

How did I miss your comment? I don't know.

I was incommunicado for a while, but I've just read it today.

I thought it was reallly funny. I love a fucking good laugh and yours was good. (sorry Stephanie it's only my opinion but I really enjoyed it)

Bangkocked Bob says:

This is absolutely consistent with my personal experience. I lived in BKK for 2 years and got to know my wife's friends from the bar. As they came to trust me, they shared their stories/tactics/cons/wins etc with me -- usually with a hearty laugh about how stupid the Farangs are. If anything, your article understates the case.

This is God's truth: one night I helped one of my wife's friends send emails to FIVE different foreign guys who were each sending her money every month via Western Union. Every email ended with something like "I miss you so much and think about you every day. Please take care of yourself and come to see me again soon."

On the other hand, beneath it all they are just people who are doing what they [think] they need to survive and help their families. People born poor in Thailand have very little chance to change that. Who can blame them?

I still love to visit Thailand and I think the girls are fabulous and lots of fun to be with. But at the end of the week, I am out of there and I force myself to forget about the sweet thing I am leaving behind. After all, it will only be a matter of hours and she will be in someone else's arms.

Best of luck to all.

TANAI KWAI says:

Bangkocked Bob writes:

"...I force myself to forget about the sweet thing I am leaving behind. After all, it will only be a matter of hours and she will be in someone else's arms."

A wise man once told me that in Thailand, "You never lose your girl, you only lose your turn."

When I first heard it I cringed. Now I laugh. (But it makes me cringe that I laugh.)

This same wise man noted that if you tell someone in America you've been with a thousand girls they would label you a depraved pervert... In Thailand they might ask if you are a homosexual.

Mom would be proud.

(anyway)

Prorogue says:

Very funny Tanai Kwai. Very funny and very true.

WILLIAM says:

CON-WOMEN??? I MARRIED MY THAI SWEETHARTR 8 YEARS
AGO, THINGS WERE GREAT UNTIL SHE GOT "AMERICANIZED"
, SHE HAS CONED ME INTO MANY THINGS(I COULD WRITE A BOOK)..AND NOW SHE
HAS NO TIME FOR ME, SHE HAS A GREEN CARD,
A BUSINESS, I BOUGHT FOR HER, NOW!! I GET NOTHING,
BEWARE OF THE LONG TERM CON!!! SHE USE TO NEVER LET ME OUT
OF HER SIGHT!!! NOW I NEVER SEE HER!!!!
DON'T MISSUNDERSTAND ME, I STILL LOVE THAI WOMEN
AND IF I HAD IT TO DO OVER AGAIN?? I'ED BE MORE
CAREFUL THEY ALL ARN'T GOLD DIGGERS
SIGNED: HOME ALONE

Dinos says:

William is right on, "BEWARE OF THE LONG TERM CON" ... have seen it so many times. As soon as the green card is permanent the devotion is gone. Then they play the game of getting you mad enough to divorce them (unlikely they will start the proceedings.)

Rick says:

I met a Thai hooker in a hotel in Bahrain. She is 30 and other hookers here say they should start thinking about a husband. She is a great cook and loves to be in the kitchen and loves cooking Thai Food. She loves to see the satisfaction on her friends faces and mine as well when she serves up a great Thai dish or barbecue. The other girls say open a restaurant for her and would do it as long as it is done in Thailand in a Thai Ltd. Partnership with a lawyer. Still, I'm not sure I would have any recourse. I worry more about the law than the girl actually. Yeah, her parents are from Isaan and they are poor but the two younger sisters living in Bangkok are self sufficient; working honestly but school fees paid to the youngest by my flame, the oldest. Any suggestions out there? I was thinking of leaving my job in Bahrain and take her with me to open a restaurant. Really, this girl can cook and often suggests I open a restaurant. I cant' understand why she hasn't done it before. Any suggestions/advice would be welcome.

TANAI KWAI says:

Rick,

If you can afford to leave your job in Bahrain with enough in the bank to be able effectively to retire -- and then some -- Thailand seems like a lovely place to do so. But if you have any expectation of earning a living from this venture I would suggest studying the business and legal landscape carefully before proceeding. Worst case, the enterprise could bleed money and even be wrested from your control. Needless to say, stumbling upon the wrong Thai attorney in the course of protecting your interests could be disastrous.

If, however, this is an adventure you can afford and you enjoy food service, Thai cuisine and working with the public it sounds like it could be great fun. Partnering in some way with a Thai national as you plan to do is all but indispensable, despite the risks you foresee.

But as a general matter these things are fraught with extreme peril and modest success rates. Even old hands get themselves pretty well screwed on a lot of these deals.

Hope this general advice helps orient you. Before doing anything I would befriend someone with extensive knowledge of doing business in the country. It would not be unreasonable, for example, to offer a bottle of wine or a meal as a small token of appreciation to a seasoned expat in the hope of receiving some solid counsel.

All the best.

T.K.

STFU says:

More shite from TK, the shitemaster. The "old hands" and "seasoned expats" are some of the biggest piece o' shite losers around!

TANAI KWAI says:

STFU:

Hello Jackass!

Jesus, can't anybody on this site find the balls to post under the same name (at least occasionally?).

Here is someone, Rick -- one of the few inoffensive, reasonable people who visit this site -- who politely requests a bit of advice. I do my best to help and you projectile-shit the following:

"The "old hands" and "seasoned expats" are some of the biggest piece o' shite losers around!"

My God, what a useless, insipid comment... Just another piece of cyber-trash with nothing to contribute.

Divining what these people mean by their comments is like picking at clumps of stool. Best guess: some kind of slam against people with gray hair. It may surprise you, fucky, that I am probably younger than you.

Love to know what kind of "winner" given you are so quick to point out the "losers." Top o' the class, were you?

BWWAHAHAHA!

(winky)

WILLIAM says:

RICK, I'AM A SOME WHAT SEASONED EXPAT...
BUT STILL DO MY SUMMERS IN AMERICA (ALASKA)
TO OPEN A THAI FOOD RESTAURANT IN THAILAND WITH YOUR GIRL FRIEND,
TO ME, IS RISKY AT BEST ,HOW WELL CAN YOU KNOW HER?
I TOO THINK IT WILL BLEED YOUR BANK ACCOUNT, EVEN IF IT'S A SUCCESS?
IT WILL BE 'HER' BUSINESS,(AND THE FAMILY) IF ONE OPENS A RESTAURANT
EXECPT TO BE THERE EVERY DAY AND NIGHT, FOR YOU'LL HAVE TO KEEP YOUR
EYE ON EVERYONE!!! RIP OFFS ARE NOT RARE WITH EMPLOYEES AND FRIENDS. A FRIEND
OF MINE OPENED A BUSINESS WITH A THAI GIRL FRIEND IN CHIANG
MAI, (THEY ARE NOT TOGETHER ANYMORE), BUT HE TOLD ME THAT EVERY
GIRL THAT WORKED FOR HIM STOLD FROM HIM!!! ,
EVEN THE ONES HE WAS SLEEPING WITH!!ANOTHER FRIEND OF MINE, WITH A THAI WIFE
DID OPEN A THAI RESTAURANT, IN THE STATES, IT COST HIM A BUNDLE!!!
AFTER A YEAR, THERE WAS LITTLE PROFIT, MOST WENT TO OVERHEAD,
IN THAILAND I'AM SURE IT WOULD BE THE SAME, BUT IN BAHT?? ANYHOW MY FRIENDS
GOT LUCKY, IT WAS HIS WIFES DREAM TO OPEN A THAI RESTAURANT!! BUT
AFTER A LONG BUSY YEAR THEY SOLD OUT, VERY LUCKY!!!!, BUT THEY
WALKED AWAY AND SAID "NEVER AGAIN" !!!!!! DON'T MEAN TO BE NEGATIVE,
IT COULD BE FUN!! BUT REMEMBER IT'S HER BUSINESS, AND
YOUR A FARRONG WITH MONEY, AND SOME THAI LADIES, SEEM TO
THINK OUR BANK ACCOUNTS ARE BOTTOMLESS!!?? ALSO DON'T GET ME WRONG?
IT COULD BE FUN!! WITH THE RIGHT LADY??? BUT I WOULDN'T JUMP INTO ANYTHING??
WITHOUT SPENDING LOTS OF TIME WITH THE LADY FIRST AND "REALLY" GET
TO KNOW HER AND HER ATTENTIONS.....YOUR A FARRONG
AND YOU ALWAYS WILL BE, AND YOU GOT DOLLARS!!!!HAVE YA READ THE
BOOK "NO MONEY, NO HONEY""??
I WISH YA LUCK, AND IF YOU DO OPEN A RESTAURANT, I
WANT T COME SEE????

Khun stupid says:

I met a Thai hooker

Rick this should be enough reason NOT to put any money in this. Also look CLOSE at Thai business Law before you jump. You will find it heavily favors the Thai partner giving them controlling interest (51%)There has been many Farangs taken to the cleaners in business partnerships with the Thai's so one must be very careful when dealing with them.

Ted Hughes says:

A good looking woman from Issan
Had her eyes on a thirty grand Nissan
To assemble the cash
She sold plenty of gash
And now she she's got a four wheel drive offroader (automatic), with air con, leather upholstery and a six cd inter-changer.

What a fine example of Thai enterprise culture.

TANAI KWAI says:

Not just "Thai enterprise culture" by any means.

The BMW's and Porsche's parked in front of the ritzier strip clubs in America frequently belong to the dancers -- many of whom hail from the humblest corners of the nation.

(winky)

Rick says:

Thanks to all for their advice and suggestions. I thought as an American under a certain Friendship Act during the Viet Nam era allowed Ameicans to have "power of the purse?" Maybe that treaty has fallen by the wayside. No doubt this girl is a gold digger and wouldn't hesitate to move on to the next guy if all fails. I do have recipes but location, location, location is key. I know Di-Steffano's, an Italian Restaurant in Chiang Mai, is still running and he opened a second branch there. His food is good. He has a great location near Thapae Gate. No, I haven't made any committment yet but have some experience with Chiang Mai as a former teacher there in the 80's. I don't trust Thais in general; except Doctors. I've never engaged a prostitute beyond service rendered-payment given and will not jump into anything impulsively. She gorgeous and has four family members that will always come before me. I told her I was going to Thailand this July and she wants me to meet the youngest sister, but wanted to know how much money I would pay the youngest sister to have her meet me at the airport upon arrival. I said nothing but lunch and money for geting the morning off; a few baht. Big sister said 10,000 Baht and I said let me ask her how much when I get there. And big sister said, " little sister will call me and tell me how much you gave her. I think it looks as if the restaurant idea is going to fade out and see the vacuum salesmanship setting in already. They just don't stop, do they?

hedro says:

Rick,
The Treaty of Amity and Friendship is still in force, however I dont know if it will be around for much longer. There are higher registration costs for this type of company but you as an American can own more than 50%

Rick says:

Hey Hedro: Can you tell me anything more about the Amity and Friendship Treaty and how much more than 50% can I own ie 100%? Thanks for the info. Rick

Bai-Bua says:

I don't know what con-women means hornestly.
But I do not understand why many farangs always end up with bar-girls?? Then those farangs complain Thai girls are cheating and sucking money :(
Thai people don't like girls working in bar. well, Thai bars are completely different than the Western's ones. If you say you are going to a bar, you are doing a bad thing since being a bar girl is a very low job in Thai society.

If you want a nice girl, do not find it at any bar.

TANAI KWAI says:

Bai-Bua,

Assume you are Thai -- glad to have your perspective here.

My opinion here is a bit different. Thai women end up in the bars for a wide variety of reasons. They are not all cut from the same cloth. Some are nice, some are not nice. Jai this, jai that -- just like civilians, in my experience. On the other hand, one shouldn't exactly be surprised if a bar girl turns out to be a con-artist (the word "con" generally refers to a scam or fraud of some kind; it also can be an abbreviated form of the word "convict").

I used to be queasy about ladies with a past to rival my own but no longer. Nor would I be inclined to look down on someone because their own society looks down upon them. There are obvious differences in people (in education, wealth, etc.) but I have trouble with defining entire groups of society as "low." Not to speak of the hipocrisy of those who think themselves "high" but who cavort with working girls. I think that's something of a cultural pathology that most countries share.

(TIT)

MILES says:

I recently visited Pattaya. I was already schooled on Thai women before I got there. Like most men, I eventually got "hooked up" with a Thai who works in a bar. She was in her mid 30s, dressed conservatively even by American standards. We were able to talk. She never asked me for anything.I didn't want anything from her except her conversation. We started liking each other. I found her nice to be around. She never knew when I was going to show up at her bar. Whenever I did show up, she was never around any other guys. So what am I saying? I'm not going to marry the woman. But, I found this woman to be decent (maybe I was a potential victim).Like I said earlier, she didn't ask me for a thing. I only bought her one drink during my visit. She is supporting her father and a daughter. I believe it is possible to find a decent Thai woman who works in a bar. She spent years cleaning hotel rooms. She wanted a change. She is definitely someone whom I will never forget.

typicalthaigirl says:

For all of yr comments about Thai ladies.
I thought that some is acceptable but some are not Is there anything like below happened somehow in yr country?
Do u find any ?
" like to have sex for free " " lie and cheat "
Come on guys...Be Honest..and tell us the truth
" what do u want when u come to Thailand ? "
" what is the first thing when u think about Thailand ?"
Please dont blame anyone if some Thai girl cheating on u. Ask yrself first, where did u place her in yr life, How serious relationship do u have with her ? then..u will find the answer for yrself.

Ken Bower says:

I have made 35 trips to Thailand starting with being stationed at U-Tapao and Sriracha during the early 1070's while still in the U.S. Army.

I have probably met more people in the 39 countries and all 50 United States I have lived in, worked in, or visited so I tend to think I know something about people.

After having made 30 trips without getting married to a Thai, I married the youngest daughter of my Buddhist Monk.

That was nine years ago and they have been the best years of my life to date (and I'm 68 yrs old now).

She is the most honest person I have ever met from anywhere (including me), and is totally honest, and shortly after we got married back in 1995, I turned over all the financial duties of our marriage over to her totally. (Oh, and I gave her her own American Express and Visa Cards even B4 we got married. Not one dollar has been spent on anything outside our household food, utility bills, rent, credit card payments etc.

I almost have to beg her to buy something for herself. Like me, she does not drink, smoke, or every butterfly EVER.

I am blessed. Taking so much time to find the perfect partner has worked out well for me. If only the rest of those hoping to find their perfect woman could be so blessed.

Ken Bower
San Antonio Texas

Jim Beam says:

Great post Ken, one should have nothing but admiration for persons like you. You obvioudly know what you want and are willing to wait for the right moment to have it. Unfortunately, there are a lot of other people around that don't have the same mentality and a vast majority of the farangs living or visiting Thailand seem to be the other type.

TANAI KWAI says:

Ken and Jim,

"Like me, she does not drink, smoke, or every butterfly EVER."

"Unfortunately, there are a lot of other people around that don't have the same mentality..."

Yes, it takes all kinds. You may not agree with the way others administer their affairs but as long as you live and let live we'll have no problems.

(smiley)

Jim Beam says:

Sure thing TK - it's a free world.

shinjuku21 says:

I'm desperately in need of advice...met this Thai girl in a bar. Japanese tattoo on her back but she seems to be wanting to change for me. She claims that she has changed her "prefession" from a bar girl to just being a waitress. Needless to say I felt obligated to supplement her income because she won't be earning as much. I pay for her rent and other extra expenses. On my second visit, I was introduced to the whole family in Udon Thani. All family members tied some white strings on my right wrist as well as hers after spending the night at her house. The whole affair was quite wholesome even if I don't understand the whole conversation and the "custom". Did I just get engaged or even worse...? Anyway, went back to Bangkok and her mobile phone just keep on ringing to no end regardles of the time of the day or night. I wish I can understand her phone conversation, this really bothered me. Now I am back at home, far away from her, I try not to imagine what she is actually doing. It seems that she got my soft spot and in the verge of breaking my heart. Should I hire an investigator just to prove my suspicion? or just accept the fact that I was just another name in her mobile phone?

Help!

TANAI KWAI says:

(...)

Paul says:

I find the Thai-girl con-artists thread fascinating but I wonder whether the behaviour witnessed here is really any different to what happens in the West?

First marriage divorce rates in the United States are routinely in the 60% range climbing, I am told, to nearly 75% for second marriages. I don't know what the rates are like in the UK anymore. Anyway, so what's my point here?

Well, for a reasonably well-adjusted and well-paid 30-something bloke like myself, statistically speaking of course, it would seem that the chances of 'marriage-survival' to one of the many late 20-something, early 30-something "I'm so desperate for a f*cking kid and I'll say and do just about anything to rope you in on the deal" farang women I tend to run into / get 'set-up' with is pretty dismal.

What comes next... 5 or 10 years of raising pre-schoolers/youngsters, while I work myself to death paying for the whole-shebang, only for her to piss-off when she gets 'bored' when we 'stop communicating', or when all that working and paying for it means I'm constantly too shagged-out to deliver the goods in the bedrrom as frequently as she'd like.

"but we have careers too" I hear the indignant farang women cry, well OK, well if it doesn't work out, I'll keep the house and the kids, you can move out and pay me the alimony to keep the home together - good deal yea? I might even let you visit the little horrors, IF I decide that it is convenient for me.

This is beginning to sound a little bitter and mysoginistic, and I really don't want it to because I am trying to make an important point.

The point is this: men can be bloody fools when they are in love and frequently get screwed by the objects of their affection. It doesn't matter whether it is some trinket-hungry ex-Isaarn bar girl or a waspy, educated career woman - once you get hooked and do the family thing, it is very likely (statistically of course) that you will end up getting royally had!

We dress up the economic reality that under-pins family life in the West with all these convenient notions of duty, and responsibility, and poor scorn on how it is manifested elsewhere.

I'm not a lefty but I really do think more people should go back and read some freshman-year Marxist theory on marriage and family life.

Marriage truly *can be* prostitution, and the enormous cost of family life in the West these days is nothing more than a mechanism to create a debt-laden, fearful and obedient workforce.

For all you happy couples that have found true love - well good for you, really, I mean it, you are a lucky minority.

Did someone say 'con'?

TANAI KWAI says:

Well said, Paul.

I would enjoy hearing Nahm or Linda comment if they are lurking about.

(...)

Greg says:

Well said Paul.

Dis-embedding oneself from the expectations and group delusions of family and society is hard work. It takes a lot of education, honesty, and creativity.

In this day and age I can't see how anyone can use the argument that having children is a social duty. The opposite is true. And the fantasy about monogamous relationships lasting forever if you find the correct partner is so adolescent.

The Guy Who Plays the Movie Producer in True Romance says:

Greg, you need to also accept that some people become involved in relationships where they are perfectly happy to be monogamous.

I've been guilty of adultery, but I'm not arrogant enough to believe that because I've done it, that no one else is capable of being faithful.

Why call romantic ideals adolescent? It's no different to your longing for a partner that you can connect with intellectually.

That being said, your points are somewhat valid although dogmatically expressed.

Greg says:

Hi Guy.

In other posts I've mentioned that I also do monogamy. I agree that sometimes it is not only warranted, but the only possible setup that will allow for deep committed love.

Adultery and non-monogamy are very different setups. Non-monogamous relationships are not about cheating, as there is nothing to hide.

Romantic ideals are adolescent in that a dream is replacing measurable reality. Far less than 50% of marriages last for 10 years. Of those in that minority only 10% claim to remain in the relationship due to love. Contrast that with the romantic ideal that everyone who get's married starts with.

Greg says:

Regarding your analogy of my longing for deep communication with a partner, I don't see that as analogous to longing for a permanent partner. For one thing, personally, I take what I can get instead of nothing at all. I'm not holding out for Ms. Right. For another I have several times dated women more than my equal intellectually. I know they exist.

A minority of people do have lasting and satisfying monogamous relationships, but to put that forward as the touchstone against which all other relationships are measured is unrealistic. We don't live in that world.

TJ says:

well said Tania Kwai, Ken, oh nice one Ted Hughes.

and for you Rick and Shinjuku wake up and smell the fucking coffee guys, why is it that when guys come to los they seem to leave their brains at duang muang ! and the dick takes over. if you met a western women in your own country who could cook and after youd known her for a few months would you give up your job and set up a bizz with her if the answer is yes you need to see a doctor quick.

furthermore if you met an hooker in your own country who told you she wanted to quit and be with you would you beleive her ? come on guys what the fucks up with ya !

as for the 50% owner thing in Thailand mate your a farang it dont matter if you were here in the war your still a farang you dont own nowt here mate and never will just remember your only treated well here whilst youve got money and the cash cow can be milked mate, as long as you remember that youll be ok!.

metronil says:

Lived next door to a guy that married a thai whore...She was great fun while he was at work all day! Plenty of video and pictures to prove it too!

TANAI KWAI says:

Regarding Paul's post above,

I would [still] enjoy hearing Linda or Nahm comment, if they are so inclined.

Greg writes,

"In this day and age I can't see how anyone can use the argument that having children is a social duty."

I am not at all inclined to have children myself but it seems that the experience of doing so is a fairly important building block of many a rich life. I say this not to marginalize the childless. It's just that there is just something elemental about it -- fully realizing your potential as a reproductive being, however brute or common a process one deems it to be. The world's literatures, religions and cultures are obsessed with issues of maternity, paternity, philoprogenitiveness and all the rest of it. It is not lightly that I would choose to go through life without fulfilling this virtual imperative, though it's quite possible. All this being said I agree people have children for some frighteningly stupid reasons.

The Guy Who Plays the Movie Producer in True Romance writes,

If you are, as you claim, renowned character actor Saul Rubinek* (and I'll thank you not to pull our collective leg on this score) it may interest you to know that you are not the first celebrity to grace this board. Superstar footballer Mick Channon has also been know to make an occasional appearance here, usually to call one of us a cunt. If I can permit myself to boast, he has called me a cunt at least twice. Quite an honor, as you can imagine.

Which reminds me of a quaint story from the days of Pancho Villa, when he and his band of outlaws rode from town to town terrorizing the inhabitants. On one such occasion, his horse dropped a steaming load as he arrived in the modest town square. Pancho spotted a peasant cowering in the distance and said, "You there... Come and eat this pile of shit." Pancho Villa's wrath was legendary and so the poor man crawled across the dirt without delay and obliged.

A few days later some strangers rode in to town, drawn by the rumor that the great Pancho Villa had been spotted in town. "Is it true?" they asked the peasant. "Is it true than Pancho Villa was here?" "Oh yes," The peasant nodded. "Well... Did you meet him?" they asked. "Did I meet him?" the peasant replied smugly, "I had lunch with him!"

Anyway, I hope one day myself to be touched by fame's gentle caress in the hope of adding to the Mango Sauce Avenue of the Stars.

(...)

TANAI KWAI says:

*See http://www.dougmacaulay.com/kingspud/sel_by_actor_index_2.php?actor_first=Saul&actor_last=Rubinek

Greg says:

Yes, I hear that for some having kids is seen as fostering growth. There are environmental concerns to consider that I see as outweighing the personal growth issues.

TANAI KWAI says:

Babies do shit a lot.

(...)

Greg says:

Some feel that the rate of environmental degration is unsustainable and that no amout of conservation can help - the only solution is less people. One way or another, that is inevitable. I'd prefer one way than the other.

TANAI KWAI says:

I appreciated your initial point and your Malthusian follow-up. Just jesting.

Even if folks just stuck to having one or two kids, we'd all be better off. Of course, the southern world is vastly outpacing the northern world in respect of population growth, with zero or negative growth being the approaching norm in numerous wealthy countries (or the primary or sole growth being among non-native populations).

(...)

Greg says:

Ya, it's a bitch. The eugenecists are crying. But new technology is actually only a few decades away from an injection that will make your baby have a high IQ, eliminating the genetic class differences we currently have.

Greg says:

I sound like a futurist, but some technology is already at hand. Some genes related to intelligence have already been identified, and there is already a method of injecting gene altering viruses that have a greater than 60% success rate at expressing the appropriate genes in offspring. Twin and other genetic studies have conclusively linked genes and IQ, and there is also a large environmental factor. Merely taking folic acid supplements during pregancy can make a very significant permanent IQ change in offspring. Being a racist is no longer completely unfashionable.

TANAI KWAI says:

There are differences in certain cognitive abilities among people but "IQ" is not the static, predetermined trait some would have us believe. It can be profoundly affected by nutrition, teaching methods, expectations placed upon the subjects, etc. Israeli educators found that they could boost the scores of "low IQ" Ethiopian children by mixing them up with "high IQ" children from the general population -- but foisting the same high expectations on the whole group. Eventually, all of the children reached comparably outstanding "high IQ" status.

It will surprise no one that there is a fairly schematic correspondence betweeen the mean IQ of a given country and its per capita income.

I suspect we each consider "IQ testing" to be a very limited tool for measuring human intelligence, not to speak of human potential. If you haven't seen it, check out the film "Gattaca" -- flawed but provocative.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119177/

On the other hand, they don't breed horses for nothing.

(...)

Tommy Trinder says:

Tanai

You make some very profound points here. As you are obviously a man of undoubted intellegence, I expect that, if pushed, you would usually be able to back up your analysis on IQ and what impacts upon it with specific and relevant empirical, scientific or artistic evidence.

That said, I've seen the film Gattaca and it was a pile of shite (a bit like most of your postings). I can only concur thus that Mick Channon was spot in his analysis. You are indeed a cunt (and let's face it - Mick knows a thing or two about breeding horses).

TANAI KWAI says:

Tommy's father types,

"You make some very profound points here. As you are obviously a man of undoubted intellegence..."

Thanks so much. I suspect by "intellegence" you are trying to capture both "intelligence" and "intellect" so I am doubly appreciative.

"if pushed, you would usually be able to back up your analysis on IQ and what impacts upon it with specific and relevant empirical, scientific or artistic evidence..."

And if pushed, I suspect you would bite your pillow and moan faintly.

"That said, I've seen the film Gattaca and it was a pile of shite (a bit like most of your postings)."

Yes, I think I was a bit more charitable in calling it "flawed." I'm thrilled you enjoy my posts, as I do yours.

"I can only concur thus that Mick Channon was spot in his analysis. You are indeed a cunt (and let's face it - Mick knows a thing or two about breeding horses)."

All due respect, Mick uses the term "cunt" with the same looseness one might attribute to your mother, so I wouldn't read that much into it.

(cheers)

Tommy Trinder says:

Thanks for the spell check Tanai. But your still a cnut.

usvirgin says:

"All due respect, Mick uses the term "cunt" with the same looseness one might attribute to your mother, so I wouldn't read that much into it."

Excellent! Thanks for brightening up my day.

usvirgin (another cunt, no doubt;)

Paul says:

Let's try and get this thread back on track...

I found this interesting: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3789993.stm

40 years of trying to get your arms out of the kitchen sink, and now women are belly-aching coz it is a little too tough out there for them

Well boo hoo, you've made your bed, now lie in it.

For me, as a bloke, it would be nice to have that choice. I guess I could be a house-husband... talking of cunts.

A guess our female friends are beginning to realize that all this career stuff is a con as well, why do you think we don't live as long???

Thoughts anyone?

Greg says:

Scores that are achieved on standard IQ tests are directly correlated with genetics. That is no longer questionable. And yes, there are a host of other factors that also affect IQ. That is also no longer questionable. Nurture is not a counter argument to nature. And yes of course there are many abilities that are not related to IQ test scores, however there is evidence of a general cognitive ability, some even think processing speed, that is tied to IQ tests. Some think that the GDP/IQ link is partly causal, not entirely environmental, and if it were not politically incorrect that would certainly be a valid argument to research.

It is highly unpallatable to consider that some groups of people are less smart than others, but the facts are in - genetic traits are inherited and do play a partial role in general intelligence. How smart the mother and father, and to a lesser extent their parents, and a lesser extent back down your lineage are will give strong predictive information on how smart the children are likely to be.

Along with all this unpallatable scientific news that we are not all created equal comes great promise to actually re-invent ourselves and alter our genes. That is not a futuristic ideal, but already possible.

TANAI KWAI says:

Greg, it is a bit vexing that every time one presents a different viewpoint you essentially accuse that person of slavish adherence to a "politically correct" view, and hold yourself out as the brave champion of all things too unpalatable for the cowardly, unimaginitive and small-minded.

Opinions vary. That's all.

(...)

TANAI KWAI says:

By the way if you like futurism you might check out The First Immortal by James Halperin.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0345420926/104-0495161-3729550?v=glance

If you can get past the first 100 turgid pages it gets quite fascinating.

(...)

Combover says:

Well done Greg. You managed a post without a single use of the word "I".

Greg says:

Are those my motives?

Combover says:

I wouldn't deign to second guess your motives.

Greg says:

I just can't imagine any other motive for implying that environmental causes are the main cause of IQ difference in large groups. I've spent a lot of time researching this and the data is conclusive. It seems to me that some people don't want reality to be built this way. Am I projecting motives upon you?

Anonymous says:

Greg, check out:

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-inferiorIQ.htm

A take I'm sure you're familiar with but nonetheless some interesting points made.

I'm not sure if this related to your previous posts about you're inability to find intellectually compatible girls in Thailand, but if it is then:-

In Bangkok we've been told that close to 60% of people have Chinese blood. So there is a good chance that one out of two girls you meet has Chinese blood.

In Australia where I am from, the Chinese tend to be disproportionately represented in the top 1% of academic achievers.

The link i am trying to make is tenuous perhaps, but I see it as another example of environment affecting "intelligence".

If there is 'really' a discrepancy between the intellects of Thai's and Europeans, I theorise that language may be a factor. It seems that language that shapes your reality tunnel.

The humourous concept of Irish logic came in part from the Irish being forced to speak English pretty much overnight. Instead of learning the language organically, they literally translated Irish words, grammar and phrases into English. In doing so, they maintained their separate reality tunnel even through ongoing generations.

....actually I would love to tighten this argument but just food for thought. Not scientifically proven at all but a reflection on my strong belief in nurture over nature.

Greg says:

Yes, nurture as well nutrition does play a huge role. But it is not an either or argument.

Greg says:

I think that I mentioned that some genes associated with high IQ have already been pinpointed. And twin research as well as other research has already closed the argument about genes affecting IQ. The only resistance to the unshakable evidence that I can imagine is from those that simply don't want the truth to be true.

Errant says:

Says Greg, 'I just can't imagine any other motive ...'

This is known as a failure of the imagination.

Greg says:

Youre imagination is good though. Your ad hominem went beyond calling me a cunt.

TANAI KWAI says:

Okay, Greg, let's back it on up.

You started by saying IQ was genetically determined. You did not tip your hat to "nurture" at all (enraptured as you are by the concept of genetic optimization).

My response was that, genetics notwithstanding, the "science" of IQ testing is imperfect and that IQ scores could be manipulated by external "nurture" factors.

You replied that I was beholden to a PC-mindset incapable of your own unflinching and fearless view of the world.

I pointed out that this is a recurring feature of your character -- one that may be coloring your view of others' views.

Seemingly chastened, you then sought to distance yourself from your own assertion that a contrary opinion could not but be the result of a benighted political agenda, disingenuously asking "Are those my motives?"

Unable to bear the strain of the intervening 19-minute silence you cracked, once again owning up to your true feelings that I am merely a running dog of misguided egalitarianism, stating:

"I just can't imagine any other motive for implying that environmental causes are the main cause of IQ difference in large groups... It seems to me that some people don't want reality to be built this way."

Regardless of what you are able to imagine, that was not my premise. Again, I said that IQ testing is imperfect and that IQ scores can be altered. Nothing more. We all underutilize our minds so much there is plenty of room for improvement among us all.

"I've spent a lot of time researching this and the data is conclusive."

Well, in THAT case...

Greg, if there is any area of inquiry in which the data is not "conclusive" it is probably this one. Allow me to match your own preening by mentioning that I have actually worked with thousands of students in exploring these issues. I developed a program that reduced attrition rates for "at-risk" college students by some 65% at a major U.S. university, which led to a paradigm shift in my own previously "conclusive" views on IQ.

You might enjoy "Stand and Deliver" starring James Edward Olmos as the heroic Jaime Escalante, someone who demonstrated that intelligence (or "intellegence" for that matter) can be molded.*

(...)

"Tough guys don't do math. Tough guys fry chicken for a living."

I love Big Baps says:

Tanai Kwai - christ, you need to get out more

TANAI KWAI says:

Great idea. Perhaps we can go out together and harpoon some BAPs.

(...)

TANAI KWAI says:

Great idea. Perhaps we can go out together and harpoon some big BAPs.

(...)

Tommy Trinder says:

Tanai

You obviously don't rent your films from Blockbuster Video on Holloway Road. Where do you find all of this highbrow stuff. I truly am in awe of you (you pretentious cunt).

Kind regards

Tommy

TANAI KWAI says:

Hello Tommy. Make sure to sit up nice and tall on your dad's knee so you can read this...

The films referenced are not "high-brow" in any meaningful sense. They are medium-budget films released by major studios for distribution to cinemas worldwide. They ain't no "Realm of the Senses" or "Belle de Jour" or Bergman or even early Almodovar.

Anyway, the last films I saw were "Monster," "House of Sand and Fog," and "Asian Street Hookers #6."

(be kind, rewind)

TANAI KWAI says:

Oh, and I left out "Big-Assed Freaky BAPS: An Earthquake of Lovin'".

(...)

Greg says:

Hi Tanai. In my first post about eugenics and genetics and IQ, I did say "Twin and other genetic studies have conclusively linked genes and IQ, and there is also a large environmental factor. Merely taking folic acid supplements during pregancy can make a very significant permanent IQ change in offspring. "

I applaud your work with students. It is still the case that nurture is not a counter argument to nature. It is still the case that genes have been proven beyond all doubt to influence the ability to score high on IQ tests. The twin studies I mentioned involved studying twins that were raised in different households. Yes, the environment makes a difference, but a limited one. The upper limit of possible IQ test scores is not determined environment. And some genes that are common to very high IQ individuals have already been identified. You can't get a more conclusive argument to genes affecting IQ than actually finding some of the genes involved.

Whethere being able to score high on IQ tests means anything other than being able to score high on IQ tests is another issue in which there is very strong evidence. Many abilities are correlated, and there is very strong evidence for what most of us can readily see. Some people are basically just smarter than others. Yes, we can learn and train and improve our mental software. But the fact of software is not a counter argument to the fact of hardware.

Regarding your painting my statement that I've researched this subject as preening, that is more of the same as what I see on this board regularly. Let the nail stand up and it get's smashed down. Say anything that implies anything positive and it is arrogance and preening. Boring.

Greg says:

Tanai - you defended a charge against you of being highbrow. I'd hate to be misrepresented myself, but it is almost as if you were accused of talent. Intellectuals are feared. They were sent to the farms once. In high school a loud "fuck off you cunt" can gain social support and therefore win an argument better than can a sound and meaningful argument. Even outside of high school there is often good reason to be a highbrow elitist.

Ok, now go ahead and acuse me of implying that everyone can't think straight for being too PC.

Moral Crusader says:

hey tanai, is Charmane Star in that Asian hookers 6 film?

TANAI KWAI says:

Dear Moral,

Ms. Star does not appear in any of the Asian Street Hookers series (not from 1-16 at least).

Yours,
Tanai Kwai

TANAI KWAI says:

Greg, you write:

"Many abilities are correlated, and there is very strong evidence for what most of us can readily see. Some people are basically just smarter than others."

Who you gonna believe, me or your lyin' eyes?

If I had to identify one aspect of your approach that would give me pause it is your unwavering certitude in your perceptions, which sound a lot like judgments -- from which there is no appeal.

Funny thing about humans... they surprise you with what they are capable of given a little room to grow.

Just as I failed to consider your reference to folic acid as a recognition of the "nurture" component of the analysis, so too have you overlooked my statement that "they don't breed horses for nothing." Again, I am not arguing that folic acid suppositories will turn you into Einstein. I am just suggesting that there is a lot more to human potential than what is cognizable to a bunch of officious test-givers. That's all.

As for saying you were preening, (1) you were, and (2) I am (aside from being a pretentious cunt) what is known as a "wind-up merchant." Keep that in mind next time I say something squirrelly like that. In any case, your alter-ego "Arrogant" seemed to appreciate my little jabs. You two talk it over.

"Tanai - you defended a charge against you of being highbrow. I'd hate to be misrepresented myself, but it is almost as if you were accused of talent. Intellectuals are feared."

Nah, Tommy was just working with what he had. We're not sitting across from one another, able to critique one another's physical appearance, for example, so we make the most of what we have in crafting insults. Appreciate also that while not using a pseudonym that relates directly to British football, Tommy operates within the rich comic tradition of the Chopper Harrises, the Marcos, the Shacks, and others susceptible of using the "teh" and "cnut" modality. I appreciate Tommy's homage to bestial hooliganism for what it is, and look for the beauty in it.

(...)

Greg says:

Endless repetition of my previous arguments. Nature not counterpoint to nurture and all that. Yes, I did hear your comment about horses.

Unwavering certainty? Consider it a call to arms. Debate is fun and instructive.

Come on. The folic acid reference was put right beside a broader reference to the broad environment. Strike two in representing my position.

TANAI KWAI says:

"Endless repetition of my previous arguments. Nature not counterpoint to nurture and all that. Yes, I did hear your comment about horses."

So why all the whingeing? I am not equating nature and nurture, only saying that nurture can have an astonishing impact in awakening potential.

"Come on. The folic acid reference was put right beside a broader reference to the broad environment. Strike two in representing my position."

Please. Your whole tack is to minimize and devalue environment as a meaningful factor. Now you want to take up the mantle of a nurturer too? How PC of you. I knew you'd join me in taking the woolly-headed, irrational, cowardly view sooner or later.

Here's my take:

(1) this argument has become, as you earlier said, boring; and
(2) my overarching observation is that you seem hellbent on casting others as "PC" whenever they disagree with you.

(...)

Greg says:

I disagree that my words in this thread in any way minimize and devalue environment. I have taken pains to be explicit. In case I did mislead, I'll be more explicit. Yes, environment has been proven to have a large but limited effect on IQ.

You mentioned race horses, but you keep coming back to environment, as if environment is a counterpoint to the truth of genes affecting IQ. Yes, I have the courage to take a broad and nuanced position. You have the courage to take a position and claim that you don't take it. So, do genes affect group IQ or not?

TANAI KWAI says:

"Intellectuals are feared."

"Yes, I have the courage..."

Ay, ay, ay. There is precious need for fear or courage here. Just a friendly (if excruciating) chat.

"Yes, I have the courage to take a broad and nuanced position."

Oh, to transcend my own narrow and workmanlike positions!

"Yes, environment has been proven to have a large but limited effect on IQ."

This is certainly a nice, temperate distillation of your views. Quite even-handed. Wonder whether "very limited" shouldn't be inserted in place of "limited." Oh well, no matter. Probably a nuance that is well beyond me.

"You mentioned race horses, but you keep coming back to environment, as if environment is a counterpoint to the truth of genes affecting IQ."

Jesus-on-a-rhinestone-covered-crutch, man! You and your "counterpoint." I am not acting in the capacity of a contrapuntist to the genetic underpinnings of intelligence. Asserting time and again that this is my position doesn't change what I've said.

"So, do genes affect group IQ or not?"

Of course they do! Genes affect every aspect of human (or equine) existence! But they are not pre-determinative of our potential to, for example, improve our IQs. Or to be more successful than those supposedly born with greater intellectual gifts. Or for a horse like Smarty Jones, with sub-par genetics and a crushed skull to come damned close to being the first triple-crown winner since 1978.(!)

I'm just tweaking you for erring on the side of a kind of genetic Calvinism. You applaud my work with students but I don't think it would be particularly helpful to encourage them to focus on their supposed limitations in respect of others when they can become demonstrably "smarter" simply by using certain superior approaches to learning and memory (and by obtaining some decent mentoring). On one level, who really cares if they are making the same grades as those with naturally elevated IQs? (Of course, this is perhaps more a question of pedagogy but it still bears on the topic.) I am by no means suggesting that we shield children from the knowledge that some people are nitwits and some are geniuses. Nor would I consider it to be anything but a boon for the geneticists to improve the intellectual functioning of the human race.*

Now if you disagree with any of that I have no choice but to declare you the winner of the argument.

It's been a lively contretemps but now I must retire for the evening.

(...)

*The only trouble is, we would have no police officers. Due to the repetitive and boring nature of that position candidates with high IQs are discouraged from pursuing police work.

Combover says:

May I suggest that you chaps continue this particular discussion via email?

TANAI KWAI says:

Apologies, Combover.

I know we'd long since worn out our welcome. Thanks for your sensitivity in not belaboring the obvious -- that we have behaved like a couple of gassy cunts.

(...)

Greg says:

"Oh, to transcend my own narrow and workmanlike positions!"

You are a funy and witty guy. But you rely heavily on attacking the poster, even at the expense of projecting your views onto him or mistreprenting his clearly stated views. Satire is funier when it satirises something that exists outside of your own mind.

" Probably a nuance that is well beyond me."

Yes, that's it. All of my posts were meant to call you stupid and blinded by being politically correct. Wow. We could instead just have a discussion about issues.

I am a terribly flawed individual - no argument there. Anything you say should be used against me. I suck. I spell bad and my grimmer and writing style are bad. You should point all of that out, in detail, and focus your posts on that. If I show any weakness you should seize upon that, regardless of what the discussion is about. Go for the perceived weakness. That is what argument is about anyway - showing up the other guy.

"But they are not pre-determinative of our potential to, for example, improve our IQs."

Actually, they are. You aren't going to ge an increase of more than 20 points, even starting at infancy. The major limit is genes, which gives swings of over 200 points.

"I don't think it would be particularly helpful to encourage them to focus on their supposed limitations in respect of others when they can become demonstrably "smarter" simply by using certain superior approaches to learning and memory"

Yes, agreed. I really do admire the work you have been doing.

Cog says:

Jawohl Mein Fuhrer,

The presupposition that the IQ test is a measurement of "Intelligence" is flawed and points to circular reasoning.
"the wheels on the bus goes round and round..."

Read, The Mismeasure of Man, by Stephen Jay Gould (1996, W. W. Norton and Co., ISBN 0393039722.), to balance some of your entrenched views.

Zieg Heil!

TANAI KWAI says:

Okay, okay -- I yield, Uncle, Uncle.

I admit the following:

(1) I misrepresented your nuanced views, thus failing to satirize you properly.

(2) I poke fun at you, not for amusement or to make the workday go by faster, but because your arguments are superior.

(3) You never jumped to the conclusion that contrary arguments must be "PC" claptrap; rather, I projected my views on you.

(4) I mistakenly asserted that IQ's could be significantly improved. You put me in my place, suggesting that increases of 20 points or less do not amount to meaningful improvement when viewed in the context of GENETICS. (Kindly stand still and do not run from this position as I am not through yielding to you.) This in spite of the following:

a. The standard deviation from the mean IQ of 100 is right around 15 points;
b. Gorillas have been tested using IQ tests designed for humans and achieved scores of between 70 and 95 points (the one that scored a 70 happened to be Mr. Peter's girlfriend, BuBu);
c. Wechsler's work on the Stanford-Binet test sets forth the following distribution:

Classification..........IQ Limits............% of Sample
Very Superior.........128 and over......2.2
Superior.................120-127.............6.7
Bright Normal.........111-119.............16.1
Average.................91-110...............50
Dull Normal............80-90.................16.1
Borderline..............66-79.................6.7
Defective...............65 and below.......2.2

Of course, since you opened my eyes to the freakish 200-point swings that are possible through the magic of genetic engineering, my modest goals of 10 or 20-point improvements seem downright pitiful (though such a meager number of points supposedly constitutes the difference between human and animal intelligence/intellegence).

By the way, you are a clever bastard yourself, with the "make direct contact with your anus" and "you have no intro to spect" and whatnot so don't patronize me.

Okay, you get the last word. Renewed apologies to all.

(...)

Prorogue says:

Am I naturing my nurture or vice versa?

Kisses

Pro

d says:

bullshit, i dont think a gorilla can read, never mind take an IQ test.

TANAI KWAI says:

http://www.koko.org/world/

(...)

Greg says:

"Jawohl Mein Fuhrer,"

Ya, Hitlers regime considered that some people and groups were superior to others, and went on an extermination rampage. Therefore no groups are in any way superior to any other. His regime also advocated breathing, therefore the idea of breathing is tainted. Anything that can be associated with Hitler is bad, and wrong in every possible way, including scientifically measurable ways.

I've said it before and I"ll say it again. The way we think is fundamentally flawed - we make associations and these cloud our future perceptions. The guilt by association is a perfect example of our broken brains.

I read the amazon reviews of The Mismeasure of Man and some of them were quite negative. About the author academician Richard Dawkins says (see Bryson, "A Short History of Nearly Everything", pp. 330-332) "If only Stephen Gould could think as clearly as he writes!"

An argument agains IQ is in print. Many more arguments for creationism are in print. If you can not yourself articulate and defend the arguments but can only reference a book, reading it must not have served you.

Greg says:

Hi Tanai.

20 points is a lot. A real lot. Environmental stimulus and diet and love and training can make a big difference - a difference that is very meaningful.

The range of IQ in normal environments ranges in the bell curve from about 60 to 220, with a few people over 250, I think.

The range of IQ groups ranges from roughly 70 to 110. South Korea is at the top, followed by Japan. I think it is Fiji, or somewhere near there that is at the bottom.

What IQ does a working democracy require? Certainly 70 won't cut it.

Greg says:

By the way, 20 points is very generous. Even 10 points is generous. 20 points gives some leeway for negative effects on IQ. For instance being socially ostracized can give a dramatic drop in IQ.

Greg says:

And of course some sub-groups are 115 and above. College educated folks have been marrying college educated folks for generations, creating a new genetic and economic class. Ever read the book "Slan"? Eugenics can work in reverse, and may very well do so.

TANAI KWAI says:

Okay, Uncle Greg, 8 points or 5 points (whatever). I knew you would go for the perceived weakness when... Even you would have to admit 5 points (while not 10 or 20 points) is still extremely significant in the context of a person's effectiveness in a quotidian sense.

"I've said it before and I"ll say it again. The way we think is fundamentally flawed - we make associations and these cloud our future perceptions."

Blame John Locke for having said it in the 18th century. Only he celebrated association of ideas as the fount of creativity.

(technically on to a different subject but one that holds equally little interest for the readership)

John U says:

Tanai & Greg,

I think you two should try to get boring accepted as an Oympic event.

Your countries would be proud of you.

John U says:

Tania & Greg,

Oympic is of course the Jewish version. e.g. "Oy vay".

For the rest of us an Olympic event would see you two close to the all time record.

Prorogue says:

John U

Are you drunk in charge of a keyboard?

Pro.

John U says:

Yeah Pro,

Is it illegal these days?

Where are you, USA, Afganistan, Saudi Arabia?

We can have an alcoholic drink at 18 in the UK. Aren't we fucking degenerate?

John U says:

Pro,

You are right, but it's not illegal where I am, and although I've typed quite a few articles over the last hour or so, I would invite you to compare the number of words I've produced with the verbiose outporings in just one article by Greg and Tanai

TANAI KWAI says:

John U. figures out that Tanai Kwai & Uncle Greg are boring!

(alert the media)

D says:

i cant believe u posted a link about gorillas taking an IQ test. u boring fucking wanker. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Dana says:

Imagine how much more interesting and entertaining and informative a thread this would have been if I had been participating. Class, style, breeding, education, wit, and the ability to reach down with a helping hand and help the toddlers to stand. Sorry I was away. I was filling out another application form to Mensa. They keep turning me away. They say I am too smart. It's hard to be me. Constantly misunderstood and belittled and unloved by homo sapiens with the eyes of beagles. I'm not complaining though. The view is great up here and the air is clear. The godheads day is coming and my retribution will be swift. No need to worry. If you've got a beating heart you are probably going to be included in the winnowing.
After desroying all of the men and most of the women my next task will be to replace the Thai female logo that appears in the upper left hand corner of this site. I could throw a rock at a Nana whore convention and hit a Thai woman who is more representative of our Thai dreams than this face. What's David on? Crack? Or is it his girlfriend? If it is his girlfriend forget everything I just said about her. She is female perfection incarnate. See how I can intellectually jump around. That's why Mensa won't take me. Too clever.

DANA says:

Anyway,that's enough of my mindless rant's,time for a leisurely stroll down to NanaPlaza and idle away an hour or two with a katoey.Preferably with a big dick.These alpha women are a sight to behold,their body is a playground and i love to ride.Back with a report soon.

Mark Haeger says:

I've lived in Thailand for 7 years. Six years with my Thai wife I met in Bangkok. We now live in SiSaKet where I have many western friend with Thai wives. Some have been married 20-25 years and very happy. Yes, Thai women will take your money, just as western women (especially wives) will. They just have a more 'matter-of-fact' way of telling you they need it. Even a generous man in Thailand gets away cheaper than he would in the west.

David T says:

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Neophyte Farang says:

I have recently been to Thailand twice and I am rather new to all of this. But I must say that this diatribe, and the threads on this site, are rather amusing to me. But I do have a couple of rather interesting questions...for any Thai female or experienced expat.

First, I am serioulsy considering moving to Bangkok (although IMHO it should really be called BangCunt, but that one is for another thread).

Like many Western men I would love to marry a Thai woman as even the worst ones treat us Westerners better than the best female farangs in the world.

Now, unlike most short-term tourists, I have never found then need to take every Thai girl that I meet and put her ankles into different ZIP codes, but rather I have begun my search for the 'right' girl, although I really don't know what that is...yet.

So, for me Thailand was never really about a 1 or 2 week f***-a-thon, but was rather a search for a new and interesting life with a wonderful woman.

Now, I am fairly successful, 40years old (and fairly good-looking) and would be leaving behind a career where I make over a $300,000 USD for a new life in Thailand so I would be rather comfortable there.

Anyway, for years I have been seriously considering having a vasectomy because I never really wanted to make the worst investment plan in America (having a child which costs you $250,000 over 18 years, or more, with ZERO rate of return!!!) anyway.

I was wondering what all of you Thai women and long-term expats would think about that? Or rather what a Thai woman would think about that? In the U.S., that would be a big legal no-no if a man did that and did not tell his wife and she could take him to the cleaners if they ever got divorced (especially here in California where I live).

So my questions are as follows: Would that be a huge problem for most Thai women if they could not have children? And also, if I ever got married to a Thai girl and did not tell her that, could that come back to haunt me in divorce proceedings if I ever got divorced in Thailand? Would she probably divorce me if she found out that I did not tell her? Or is is easy to meet Thai women who do not care about having children so I should just be upfront with them?

Also, can a Thai woman (in a divorce in Thailand) be able to take, or keep, any of my assets that I might bring to Thailand from America (this is more of a legal than an ethical question)?

Also, I have met a girl there already, or rather a few girls there, but there is one that I am rather fond of. She has told me that she would really prefer to live in Thailand, but is willng to visit America often if we ever get married. I want to know if this is a good sign or a bad sign?

Obvioulsy, I am aware that MANY Thai women are looking for a better life (I do not necessarily mean a meal-ticket to all of you jaded, old expats) with a farang who treats them better than Thai men do, but I want to know if this is actually a sign that she really might like me because she doesn not find it necessary to have me take her to America to live.

Any input would be greatly appreciated...

I just can't take it anymore says:

Fuck me, another filthy rich, good looking gentleman who needs advice on how to find a Thai wife.

It's amazing how all the guys on the internet are good looking and wealthy, I guess all the fat, ugly cheap Charlies I see down Sukhumvit don't surf.

Yeah, Charlie don't surf.

Mike says:

Dear Neophyte Farang,

For the amount of money you mentioned, you can piss on or get pissed on for many years. Even a little shit on the face wouldn't be of any inconvenience. As long as you distribute the money evenly...

There is nothing easier than easy life in Thailand, but if you are looking for a true and stable relation, without the whole of the lies, you better do your preliminary work... Thais love Thais most, and their [censored] PM's party is called Thai rak Thai - Thais love Thais.

My girlfriend does everything for me, but when I want to sue the guard Company for the fact that my bike was stripped in front of their eyes, she suddenly doesn't see the interest.

I love Thais, and I eventually fuck them. But I really have to sort out the respect thing yetÖ

dabbledave says:

Serious questions and on topic:

I need an exit strategy from what is becoming my worst nightmare. My Issan wife of three years and I have had an argumentative relationship for months (based around her intolerance of my occasional boys' nights out with mates). We have a one-year old son. Just yesterday I found out that she has been having an affair with another farang, who lives in the same condo building, for at least the past two months (while I've been at work -- the other guy is retired -- and while she's gone "kup ban" -- when actually she's gone to a beach resort with said farang).

I want to sue for divorce on the grounds of adultery:

1) What evidence and proof will I need?
2) Will a successful suit for divorce due to her adultery guarantee that I will have sole custody of my beloved son?

Any experiences, knowledge or anecdotes about this are very welcome!

Cheers

D

apple says:

I got into this website by accident -what a sad!! reading all these stories about the opinion of farangs for Thai ladies. I am a Thai girl, living and doing master degree in UK and having relationship with an English man for nearly 2 years. Now I feel terrible and don't want to walk or go anywhere with him anymore. I feel like I don't want to continue this relationship with him anymore because I'm scared people will assume i'm a hooker. I'm surrounded by people who don't like the idea of having farang boyfriend including my family and friends, they always told me that I will get insulted by other people and they will look down on me. I never believe in that kind of attitute and always fight for my boyfriend to get him accepted....but now I'm getting weaker.. although I know who I am, I know I'm diferrent from those girls, I'm educated and I'm from wealthy family but sometimes knowing how people feel about Thai girls is eating me away and that makes me sick and hate my boyfriend.

mr peter says:

Apple I live in UK and have had thai GF here and in LOS, you are far more likely to get looked on as a hooker in LOS than anywhere in the UK, here you are just another foreign face. . Make your mind up girl first you say you want to fight to get your BF accepted then you tell us you hate him.
Are you sure it's not the pressure from your family that is starting to get you down and not all this imagined hostility from strangers?-peter
PS do you like luktung?

Anonymous says:

It has helped us greatly that my wife has a reasonable understanding of western culture (having studied abroad) and this is something that most Thai's do not have the opportunity or willing to do.

David

--------------------

"Not willing to do?" I truely disagree with that.

Anne says:

BTW, the person who wrote this article should be writing a smililar story about the ladies where he grew up. But why don't you make a website about your own home country? Explore all the problems where you are from and write about them.

Anonymous says:

Well, nowadays I don't even want to answer when people ask where I come from. All the stereotypes about thai women really make decent thai girls are ashamed of where we are orriginally from.

Lots of people think Thai women are cheap meats. No, we are rich at hearts!

Mike says:

Huh,

I guess that half of this site explores and discusses the fat white moaning problems already...

Cog says:

Apple wrote:
"Now I feel terrible and don't want to walk or go anywhere with him anymore. I feel like I don't want to continue this relationship with him anymore because I'm scared people will assume i'm a hooker."

สงสัยจะไม่รักจริง...
รักใคร รักแท้ ก็ต้องรักให้มันสุดหัวใจฃิครับ

I'm a Thai male, people assume I'm a worthless SOB with a diminutive dick...unfortunately, it's true, but that's beside the point. The point is: if you truly love the fellow, don't let the baseless opinions of others affect your relationship.

apple says:

I love my boyfriend but sometime I can't help wonder how long will it last... because we're so different. my boyfriend's got very bad attitute with the poor people particularly Thais which I'd never understand that. I've been living in UK for long time but my boyfriend he works in Thailand and he seems to know well about Thai.

John U says:

Apple,

Just a few thoughts of mine regarding your comments on 30th. June.

The reason we write so much about Thailand and the ladies is because we love it so much and are trying to make sense of it in our own way.

We love the Thai ladies and the way they treat us while we are there.

The trouble is that they treat us so well, that we can't help believing that they are in love with us.

After a while we find that they do not love us, it's only the money. We are disappointed and hurt. So we write about our stories and read others stories to help make sense of our feelings.

The sensible ones amongst us know that not all Thai ladies are prostitutes, and we treat Thai ladies with the same respect as we do ladies from any other culture.

So don't think we look on you as something to scorn.

Speaking personally I love to see the Thai ladies who are now living in my region - and their numbers are increasing :<) - . When I see one it brings a smile to my face, and they always smile in return.

There is much more smiling these days where I live. Smiling; one of the most precious exports from the Land of Smiles.

apple says:

John U
That really makes me feel better, thanks.

chris says:

expat sites! give me a break. you lot going on about the pitfalls of relationships with girls you met while paying them for sex, makes me laugh. would you do it at home?

get out of nana and soi 33 and go and meet a girl. learn some thai. most of all grow up. bar girls are like blockbuster videos, you never rent the same one twice.

Egill says:

Most generalizations about Thai girls are useless. They are as different as they are many. So much has been written about the scams going on in Thailand, but what about the scams in the West? Is the West full of innocent little angels?

In my opinion, being fooled is one part of the Thai (first) experience. Take better care next time - and never put the big buck into anything.

Being fooled in the LOS happens because 1. You dont know the language. 2. You don't understand the culture. 3. You misunderstand the whole situation. 4. You are treating Asian women the same way you would Western women.

If you want to understand Thai people, you must remember one thing. Nothing is taken very seriously in the LOS.

We from the West are brought up differently. Telling a lie is not serious in the LOS. It is just normal. One friend told me: In the LOS, you just listen to what people say without paying real attention to it or giving any special significance. Most of the time, the people themselves do not even know or care if they are telling the 'truth' (what is truth? a philosophical question that has never been answered) or just telling some story in order to have fun, make an impression or just pass the time or - to gain face.

In their hearts, most Thais are good people who adhere to the Buddhist religion. One of the basic tenets of Buddhism is that everyting is impermanent. Everything changes. We can only change some things in life, other things we cannot change. For this reason, people should not worry too much. But brought up in the West, we worry all the time, even if our bank savings books are full.

After all, what people do is more important than what they say.

There is a reason for everyting in people's lives and behavior.

If you really want to find out, you will find out.

And guys, stop looking for the Western woman in the Thai body - for she has never existed and will never exist. But still, you go on looking for that which does not exist.

Dana says:

Attn: Egill

Being fooled in the LOS happens because Thais fool you. If they didn't fool you, you wouldn't get fooled. I refuse to take 100% of the blame for every negative social thing that happens to me in Thailand. I meet people from other countries in the United States all the time because I live in a city that is very popular with people from all over the world. And in my job I routinely interview people from about 50 countries a year. I never fool any of them. Not one of these lost and lonely people can say that they had a negative social experience in the United States because this American fooled them. The reason I am fooled so many times in the LOS is because that is what Thais do to people.

Oz Terry says:

Guys check this out . It explains the meaning of all relationships all over the world. Forget anything you may believe about equal partners.

http://www.intellectualwhores.com/masterladder.html

The imbalance in south east asia that means a fat ugly bald middle income no prospect guy can get a beautiful brown girl is simply due to the relative differences in earning power and attitude. Just like we cant believe we can get someone this attractive they cant believe they can get someone this rich and powerful who treats them decently. If you take them home to your country or introduce them to your mates its like superman going back to krypton you lose all your power and you are fucked frankly.

ADONIS IN UK says:

WOW. what a site!! definitely some characters on here, TANAI and GREG among the most humourous. Some of your bitch fights had me in stitches. I find most of the comments helpful, it always pays to see the other peoples perspectives on things as there are people here who have obviously have far more experience of thai women/ culture than i do. Any way i have met a bar girl who works in my mates bar, by amazing coincidence i met her mother in nam phong first, long story, but anyway, spent the holiday with her and yes, paid for her time and enjoyed every minute of it. Realising what was happening, i was falling in love with her, i tried to distance myself from her as we got closer to leaving time. She couldnt understand why i was suddenly different. i couldnt leave without telling her how i felt. Having been the attention of many farang, who often told her "i love you, i will take care of you" and then pissing off into the sunset never to return, she was very dubious about my feelings. still, after returning home and leaving her to the mercy of all the perving farang. I kept my promise to email daily and text her and we speak daily via webcam and msn. I am under no illusions as to what she is doing now i am back home, it IS her job nontheless. But i still love her and will marry her. she is leaving the bar to return home next week to seek proper work as it will help our case when it comes to visa's etc. It helps that she has never asked for money, but my friends wife is her mothers friend so i will know if she stays in the bar and is spinning me one. My point? well i just think that look for the good in them and dont paint them all with the same brush, bad ones yes, good ones also, but they are all human AND have feelings too!! if im back in a month or two having been made a mug of, i will fall at your collective knees and take the kicking i deserve. But i live in hope.

EWO says:

Adonis, for the story from the girls point of view, have a look at http://www.pattayapages.com/girls/noi.html

ADONIS IN UK says:

EWO
thanks for the link, had a good read from both sides of the fence. I would have to say i am slightly more clued up than was. Reading the relevant info about 'getting serious' was very revealing. OK QUESTION: how much would one ( i sound like the bloody queen, THE queen not A queen) pay for a small wedding in a village half an hours ride north of khon kaen?i know how long is a piece of string will jump into your minds, but there must be a sort of yardstick, to go by. I mean a price for the wedding, service, food etc NOT inclusive of the dowry. people with first hand knowledge please len a hand. Dont want to appear as a cheap charlie, but obviously the lower the costs the sooner it can happen.That said if i am asked for a silly high amount what is the etiquette? find a cheaper girl?? KIDDING!! comments appreciated. THANKS

mr peter says:

Adonis, have you asked the boy scouts on www.thailand-uk.com? they like nothing better than discussing weddings and visa applications. If you asked there they would be trying to outdo each other-some on how much the do cost and some by how little they got away with paying, sort of like the four yorkshire men-'that's nothing the villagers at our wedding paid for the whole thing, including food and drink and the ring, and then made me headman of the village', you get the idea. All depends on the numbers attending and how generous you are feeling, much the same as here really except the brides family don't pay anything (as a rule) If you are talking about a village service this is not of course legal and does not mean you are officially married at all. I should hazzard a guess at 500-700 quid for the lot if around 100 attending and not more than 150 quid for the ring, no point making out your made of money. This includes the disco. If you are made of money and want live singers I can give you the number of a very, very good morlam singer from KK who has a couple of CD's out, that would impress them no end and give you mucho faco -peter

EWO says:

Adonis,

Ignore Mr. Peters childish remarks and take the meat of the advice. You will find lots of advice on Thailand-UK, and some crap as well. After all, we can't all aspire to Mr. P.'s heights of perfection.

This is the link http://www.thailand-uk.com/

I found that the advice from there very helpful, the main reason being that they had all gone through it already or were doing so now.

tonychang says:

Adonis
I'd recommend the nanaplaza.com (dont be put off by the name) message board for some excellent advice about all things Thai and from all sorts of different kinds of people, I've never been dissapointed by their members (fnar-fnar).

Get a Life says:

I would agree with EWO. If things are getting serious and you want info and advice on UK visas then the best place would be thailand-uk.

mr peter says:

OOOh who has no sense of humour now, not the boy scouts club that's for sure. Adonis if by chance your GF is a BG don't mention that on T-UK site as they like to pretend they all married waitresses and shop girls. Good luck anyway-peter

Get a Life says:

Mr. Peter, kindly explain your 12.14 am post, as it makes no sense whatsoever. I married a bg, and the only response I got when mentioning the fact was "If your gf is/was a bar girl don't try to hide it. The embassy know many Farang meet girls in this way."

mr peter says:

Why does NJW have to pretend to be other people? because in may he posted:

Well, David, it would appear from your last post that dissenting voices are not welcome here. Therefore I will leave you and your little band of regulars to continue with you intellectual debates on the merits of watching various "Asian Babes" taking a dump.

Enjoy yourselves, children, I'm sure you wont miss me, and I certainly wont miss you.

Posted by NJW at May 28, 2004 05:26 PM

Although he has once or twice forgotten this and posted as NJW since he has now taken up the silly habit of assuming multiple names in a childish attempt to goad me into yet another pointless and uninteresting argument ,yawn. I hear his bargirl left him which maybe explains why he's bitter and twisted.-peter

Dana says:

OK, I don't see anyone else doing the heavy lifting so I'll do it. I'll take the hit. I'll be the sacrificial lamb. I am sick and tired and bored reading the same old advice on all Thai websit