Thai girls vs. farang girls

dennipattyn says:

some great insight,I consider myself very lucky to have found a farang girl that has the best qualities of both cultures.Maybe we need to have a cross-breeding to increase the number of desirable women.

Whaleshark says:

I am a Thai guy dated good thai girls and dating the good farang girl-expat.

I am sorry if my writing is hard to read coz it is the first one( I am an observer) .This one is a good topic.

First,the asking & dating culture here is not the same as yours.Traditionaly ,Thai girls won't go out with you easily at first sight no matter how cute, rich ,eduacted you are.You need to make friends with her first without romantic talks until she trusts you by going places with you alone as a friend then you can start asking her out as a girlfriend.Most farangs fail to have a good Thai girlfriend cos they just ask them out as their western way and got turn down right away as good thai girls way(not going out with guys easily or they will be considered a slut (shameless girl by others -even though they don't have sex).It takes months or years in this period of making trustful friend ,which most farangs are not patient enough and turn to a bargirl for a quickie in a bad cycle.
However , western cultures change them a bit ,especially the abroad educated ones-working women ,who is familiar with the western dating way but they expect no loser without a career.So you have more chances to approach this group in your way.However,you have to be more patient and less aggressive for this group as well coz they are not farang girls by studying abroad.They are Thai girls still.

Before or after : Western way- be my girlfriend& have sex,then we learn about each other whether we love each other or not.Thai way-be friend first to learn about each other ,then you can be my boyfriend if we love each other.Most important,you have to say now "I love you" not after you have slept with me for years in western way.Thai girls are not cars for you to test driving them first ,then you buy them if you like.

No: It does not always mean "No" when you ask her out or ask her to be your girlfriend. Sometime,lots of time, means "not yet" ,"too soon" ,"give me more time" , or " you are a horny farang-just kidding on this one".You need to keep trying alter but not so soon at least 10 times because the same reason cause she will be considered a slut by saying "Yes" for the first time.

The best places&ways to meet these good ones are by Thai friends.Why! Thai friends have no social skill talking to strangers ,especially with farangs , and they don't trust male strangers .However ,it makes a huge difference if you happen to know a friend of them.It sounds like you have a reference for her to feel safe to be friends &talk with.

Sex: Traditionally ,the good ones won't have sex with you even though you are her boyfriend. So,don't even try to make a move on her when she first starts going out with you unless there is a clar sign she is not a traditional one.

The look: Most good Thai girls don't like the look to her with you in public.Why ! The majority of Thai girls with farang guys are bars. It is the norm in our narrow Thais brain.Some even gets treated badly as a hooker by staffs in places like hotelels.That is the most annoying matter.

Anyway,I don't think these will apply to all Thai girls coz after all they are not like similar potato chips in a bag.They are all diffrent in age,education,family discipline ,religious level ,financial situation, peer pressure and more just the same as other girls in the rest of the world.So ,it is your job to to analyze them in all factors first before approaching them-the right way.

Hope you farang guys have a better picture.There are many good ones waiting out there.Actually , I have lots of single female friends.Interested !

Nahm says:

OK, I've just been reading through some of the discussions on Thai women Vs Farang women and frankly they all pissed me off, except for Mr WhaleShark who's writing was pragmatic and considered .

If you're living in another country you have to adapt, which a lot of Farang's, both male and female - do not. Without this adaptation or respect for new ways, it is particularly hard for any farang to get a relationship going with a Thai person, but I think especially for women.

The roles of women in Thai society are what I see as very old fashion, the men have to be very macho and the girls have to look and act in a conventionally female way (i.e long hair, well made-up face, girly clothes etc). Yes, I totally agree Thai women are very beautiful and they know how to groom themselves well, look great and always smile. But frankly thats about it.

The Thai girls who've actually got anything interesting to say are the less made up or surfaced polished types. They are maybe a bit fatter and who dress with more personal style, instead of the tight jean-mini skirts, tight fitting tops and extremely high heels and long hair, is soo boooring - I mean is this the only way you can be a true women!?

Thailand and most other countries in Asia are obsessed with surface beauty. I am not saying this doesn't prevail in Western society, as of course it does, but we as Westerners really do have a more liberated view towards what people look like and their social status etc. Here in Thailand they don't, yet.

It is only a small minority that look at Westerners just as a person, rather than a Farang, an outsider who looks different, who acts differently, who is deceivingly more confident etc. If everyone had the attitude of Mr WhaleShark then there would be a lot more cross - relationships here in Thailand.

Maybe Farang men would be able to stop having to pick their girls up in Bars for an initial price. And Farang women would be considered equal next to their Thai- female counterparts, instead of like freaks, who are not groomed enough, have hearts of stone because we like to question men about their ideals and intentions, which means we obviously hate men!

Oh yeah and our tits and arses are a fair size bigger than most of the Female Thai population, which frankly I think just scares the shit out of Thai men!

Farang women have most definitely not forgotten how to be sexy and feline. It's just that we're not just dolls to be looked at or played with. Our western liberation's enables us to stop having to worry about wheather your hair is alright, what dress to wear, shoes, lipstick etc, etc, but to concentrate on thinking about things that actually really matter other that what shade of lipstick am I going to wear tonight, or should I wear my hair up or down!?

This is why I think Thai girls do so well with Farang boys, because they just sit pretty rather than their Farang counterparts who maybe want to discuss the worlds current affairs or just be rude and crass for the night, which is usually so exclusive to men.

I mean why is it girls are not deemed so femine if they like to smoke, drink, swear etc? Does it make them a worse person? Why does it make them less attractive? As long as your not being abnoxcious or offenbding anyone whats the problem?

I hate that you say (David) we've forgotten how to be femine - its such bullshit! You know that old joke that blokes always crack about us chicks taking 2-3 hours to get ready before a night out? Well it's because if you do really want to look great and add all those female touches that set the brassy girls aside from the classy girls - it takes time, god dame it!! And to be perfectly frank, sometimes there just isn't always enough time in the day!

I know your probably thinking I am some Farang women who has been living here too long without a shag and is uptight and jealous - well I'm not!

My thoughts and opinions come from spending a year here with many different types of Thais - male and female; from your bar girls in Phuket to Punks in BKK, Sea Gypsies in Koh Lanta, along with some very wholesome and down to earth and traditional Thais.

I am not an expert but there are a lot of stereotypes and predjuidices about women that need to change in Thailand if us expats are going to get regular sex or develop any kind of beautiful relationship!!!

Farang women are women and we are femine, maybe not as conventional as our Thai counterparts but we are. Also we don't hate men, just sometimes when men don't think before they speak or act - it pisses us off, so we're going to tell you about it.

You know if we want to go out and shag for a night we can, but why do we still get looked down upon as a cheap slut, whilst man are patted on the back for scoring a goal??? So of course us ladies are going to get pissed off.

You know the reason why Thai girls don't do this, is because most of them live at home still (Thai tradition and all) I bet if they didn't they'd be going for one night stands too.

So yeah Farang women are more opened minded towards sex and do not necessarily feel we need to be in a relationship to have it - but this does not make us sluts.

We have also moved away from conventially female clothes and hair styles, but again it doesn't make us less femine.

My question to the discussion board is what do Thai men really think of Farang women?

Whaleshark says:

Good point Khun Nahm

What do Thai guy think of farang girls?

Look: Exotic&attractive,just like the way farang guys look at Thai girls (I think).Anyway , that would depends on individual's preferences. Mostly ,Thai guys ,in average , farang girls has better looks than Thai girls i.e. lighter skin , higher nose , more curses ,daily products body smell (this one turns me one) , nice eyes color , and many more that Thai girls don't have.

Personalities :Aggressive: This could both good and bad points.For shy Thai guys(Most of thai guys), you have to initiate to approach them or you never get together with them because they feel intimidate by your farangness.Bad points ,they feel threatened & uncomfortable being bossing around .Also ,they loose their faces if you do that in public .

Lifestyle: If you are expats with higher income(Paid in dollar) ,you have to becareful how you spend your money around them cause they feel embaress not to be able to pay for it.That does not apply the lazy ass born-2- b-golddigger Thai guys .

Sex:..............

I am sorry....I am burn out today...really tired.I need to relax.I will get back here soon for more points to farang girls out there to know good Thai guys think about you.

Anyway,there are lots of Thai guys I know fantacied to be in a relationship with farang girls but they have no clue how to land ones.I am sure they would make good ones for you,if you know how to do.

Adios

Whaleshark says:

What do Thai guy think of farang girls? Part 2

Sex: Definitely Oh... yes, Farang girls are better than Thai(Not consider bar girls) .Farang girls always know what they want and are not shy to do it that make me excited.I find it quite boring with Thai girls(Not everyone though).Mostly , they just lay there as dolls doing nothing.Farang girls always want to go all the way and try new things.That always turn guys on.

However , Thai guys are worry about the size of their brothers.Well.....we, men, think that the end of the world if we can not meet farang boys standard,why you F.G. would be bother looking at us.So ,it is (F.G.) to make sure there are something else they can do to satisfy you. As my girlfriend ,she confirms I am better than ex-BF US ,Aus ,Sing ,and more.All you have to do is ask what she wants and give her that.

Anyway,You ,F.G. , can't even make fun,laugh ,or make fun of Thai boys brothers cause that is the weakest spots as other mens in the world.

Age:Thai men always prefer to have a younger girlfriend .There are many reasons behind it.
-The G.F. will respect and listen them more as senior(We have seniority system here - the younger respects the older one always)
-The G.F. have younger looks.
-The G.F. will depends on him,so he feel he is so manly to protect and support her all time.
_There are higher she will be virgin(Thais prefer virgin wives,even though it is hard to find nowaday)

My advices to F.G. to get good Thai boys:
1.Make a first move first: Yes, you have to do it or you hardly get them cause they never do it first.Of course , the sleeping around boys would run after as usual.
2.Where to meet:
-Bar: It is hard to find a serious relationship with Thai boys in the bars cause ,mostly, they are the young ones and immature older ones ,which don't follow the laws forbid the drink&drive.
-Everywhere: I would say you can make a move everywhere.How you do it is more important.
You can't be too aggressive doing it.You might start asking them questions or helps for anything you need like direction ,language,laws ,and so on,then you have to get his No. for in case of future need.If he is interested in you,he will give to you ,which mostly you will get that.Then , you can start to flirt with him bit by bit,not too fast cause they will think you are sluts(No offence but It is the way we think here).You have to creat the the chances for him to initiate another levels of relations.After all, they are men ,it is their jobs to act manly.
3.Differences:Don't gone mad everytime things go wrong.Thai men harly concern of the discrimination i.e. race,age,gender , so on or other civilization issues as in the west but it does not mean they are bad.It takes me 3 years to live in US to realize it is really important to take them into our consideration.Lots of patience&explaination needed once it happens.
4.Some Thai girls says most Thai men are not the same after they have sex(Mostly, they get worse) cause they try to show the better sides(not real) to the girls to get lucky,then the the true reveals.I think that depends who she is really after sex as well.Is she the way she was?It takes both sides to make a relationship working,not just one.

ANyway,the same last idea, Thai men are like others,which they are different individuals.So don't assume they are all a like.Take your time to learn about them.

Wish you all lucky in love as I am .

nahm says:

Thank you so much Whaleshark. You have confirmed a lot about Thai men I already knew, so now things about a certain man, make sooooo much more sense. Ahhhh well, better luck next time! Though I do have to say those rules are very contradictory, but I suppose that's Thailand, right?

tonychang says:

Bizarrely enough I couldnt agree more with Nahm(Good work bird!). One of the better thinks about being back in the UK is socialising with women who like to have a laugh and get drunk (though Thai girls do double up as a handy taxi).

MaryB says:

My sincere thanks to both Whaleshark & Nahm!! Exquisitely enlightening reading!

Whaleshark: thank you so very much for exploding the Magic & the Myth of Thai Girls from a cultural insider's perspective, by pointing up the fact that cross-cultural allure works both ways when it comes to sexual attraction. Afterall, "exoticism" is in the eye of the beholder, & it will always be an aphrodishiac, especially for men, since men are hard-wired for s*xual attraction to that which is "different", rather than that which is "familiar" (duh).

Yes, until I found myself emersed in SE Asian culture of late, for reasons beyond my control, I had considered it bragging rights to be counted among what I consider to be some of the most beautiful women in the world--American! However, reading this & other websites relating western mens' opinions of Thai-versus-western women, one could easily begin to feel that perhaps her straight blond hair, green eyes, high cheekbones, lg round eyes w/big eye-lids, perfect nose, well-flossed pearl white teeth, size 2, aerobically fit body, ability to absorb/discuss complex ideas, good education, sexual competence, & financial viability should be immediately jettisoned & exchanged for black hair, a flat face w/no eyelids, dk eyes, big nose, passive-aggressive personality, a distinct inability to comprehend/converse about complex subject matter, a 3rd world education, garlic breath, an obsession with primping, showering & dressing in cheap clothes (must be nice to have nothing more mentally taxing to think about each day other than--as Nahm put it--to decide whether to wear one's hair off the shoulders or on), oh, & the body of a 9-yr old boy w/hormonally stimulated breast tissue.

Nahm: thank you for a long overdue--and extremely articulate--defense of western women, heretofore conspicuously absent from these postings. I once entertained the notion of submitting something similar, but could not have done the subject as much justice as did you. Clearly, as opposed to similar websites, the disproportionate share of Mangosauce readers/posters are well educated, well-spoken (dare I say, witty & urbane?;-)), critical thinkers and yet many seem to be in denial of some basic issues when waxing philosophical about the superlative choice of partners Thai women make, as opposed to their western counterparts: 1) Thai girls don't know/can't easily discern what western men don't know/are deficient in socially, financially, intellectually, or otherwise, b/c they simply don't know what "benchmark" is not being enculturated by western societal norms AND most of them assume, w/o being able to critically evaluate the situation, that ALL western men are more educated, worldly/sophisticated/well-bred & richer than most Thai men they could get their hands on, so why would they want to, even if capable, try to second- guess, or question a farang man's decision-making, problem-solving abilities?; 2) Thai females are socialized to keep their mouths shut, & all displeasure, or negative opinions/criticisms to themselves, so their men can continue to delude themselves that everything is punky-dory (a western man's wet dream, let's face it!) until of course the girl disappears w/no explanation; 3) there are millions of available Thai girls that are YOUNG, VERY, VERY YOUNG, so young that no western man could get near someone that young or small (they're "squeakers" & most western men are borderline pedophiles) in the west!; and 4) Thai girls walk around w/a big sh*t eating grin on their faces all the time, though they may be secretly plotting the demise of their farang bf/husband by the hour, western men need to DELUDE themselves at all times that the woman they are with is happy, so they don't have to go to too much trouble to find out why not, or god forbid have to "fix" the problem. Again, its a matter of western women knowing the score & having the assertiveness/critical thinking skills to challenge men when they do something ridiculous, destructive or low class--in other words, yes, western women take some effort over/above 3rd world princesses, & we don't walk around w/a fake smile plastered on our faces while chanting the mantra, "you happy?", but we're worth it!!:-)

Jimmy Hill says:

Well said Mary B.

I think that you accurately reflect the views held by all of us ex pros and pundits still in love with the beautiful game.

Are you the Mary B who used to play left side of midfield for Fulham back in the early 70's ? Silky skills and a eye for the killer pass.

Heard you went into the insurance game after the cruciate injury. Often tell the kids about how good that Fulham team was back then before Bestie and Marshie turned the club into a circus.

Anonymous says:

"western women..... straight blond hair, green eyes, high cheekbones, lg round eyes w/big eye-lids, perfect nose, well-flossed pearl white teeth, size 2, aerobically fit body, ability to absorb/discuss complex ideas, good education, sexual competence"

Is she the one that leaves money under your pillow when you lose a tooth?

Kevin says:

DEAR FARANG GIRLS,

Why do you have to put Thai Girls down, just because you cannot compete with them? Western Women think they can go all over the world and NAG or JUDGE any White Guy they see.

And quit using the word CHALLENGE, when you mean a Western Man who will not BE YOUR LAPDOG.

Western Men do NOT go to Tahitit, Brasil, Thailand,
Argentina or Costa Rica looking for a White Girl.
Get over it, we Western Men do not care what you
do, so it is NOT YOUR BUSINESS what we do.

Thai Girls are not as PC about age as Western Women, but isn't it FUNNY how in the West, if you are RICH AND/OR FAMOUS it suddenly doesn't
matter how old you are. You can have young girlfriends and NO ONE JUDGES YOU.

I am sick & tired of loser Farang Backpacker Girls thinking that just because I am White, from the US, that I am REQUIRED to humor them, dance with them, buy them drinks and pretend I like them over Thai Girls.

Get a life and leave the Western Men outside your country alone.

Western women I meet in Asia are ALWAYS trying to make me feel guilty for enjoying my life in Asia.

Go back to Khao San road and bother the unwashed, eternally broke, culturally unaware
Backpackers who only sleep with White Girls
because they have no other choice.

Like the DUTCH GIRL said: Refering to all the starring, unhappy , overweight, sour attitude,
unfeminine Farang Girls wandering around Thailand
with their backpack, upset that NO WHITE GUY WITH ANY SELF RESPECT WANTS THEM,

"NOT YOUR BOYFRIEND, NOT YOUR BUSINESS"

Go find a Thai Guy and quit bothering us.

SO many times I am with Thai Girls from an office, a University Grad, the hospital, and UNHAPPY White Girls stare at me as if I was with a hooker.

It tells more about them and their attitude than mine.

And while we are on the subject of HOOKERS.

As a friend told me years ago, "I pay for sex with Thai Girls in Thailand " because Sex for free in America is too damn EXPENSIVE".

White Girls charge more money for sex than Thai Girls, but they cannot admit that FACT. They claim the sex is free then want your house, alimony, palimony, etc, etc. GET REAL!!!!

Even my own mother calls me "Bachelor in Paradise" because I live in Thailand.

My brother is STUCK with a self-centered WHAT ABOUT ME White Girl who is to expensive to
divorce.

How many White Guys in AMERICA would dump their wives in a heartbeat, if they weren't THREATENED with ALIMONY. A LOT.

That shows what kind of MARRIAGES they are stuck with in the USA.

Kevin

Nahm says:

'Ohhhh I could crush a grape'!!! Does anyone remember that British TV Show? It was grrrreat! Anyway, slightly side tracked by how I feel when I read any of Kevins comments. Obviously I could crush more than grapes, but I am chilly chilled in Thailand, so can't be roused to be any more agressive. ANYWAY, I am very tired today as you can see from my writing.

So Kevin... Jeeeeeeesus, you are so bloody superficial!! You seem to never write anything constructive or thought provoking about the differences in Thai and Farang women, other than what we look like. Its so shallow and predictable to read. Can't you think of anything else to write other than us farang girls being 'starry, unhappy, overweight, unfeminime with a sour attitude because no white guy with any self respect wants them'. Jeeeeesus, you really don't like foriegn girls do you? Do you really think that's what we're thinking when we see a mixed relationship? We'd be pretty vacuous and vacant if we did. If I wanted to shag a non-Thai guy, it a be a damn sight easier than trying to pull a shy Thai Boy. I never, ever star at Thai-Farang couples and become what you think, EVER! And I have never had such a ridculous conversation with anyone either male or more importantly, female. Just thinking about what you wrote and trying to concieve and understand such stupid words, enrages me. At the end of the day the Thai-girl / Farang-boy relationships we are talking about (which you so believe us Farang girls envy and pine for) keeps everyone happy, the Thai girl gets her financial security and the farang guy gets a hot girl to shag regulary, so everyone's a winner. But all over the world, the sentiments of many relationships can be suspect, which is why we should always dig a little bit deeper than the surface, seek and find.

Greg says:

I just found this website yesterday. It's a hoot.

I enjoy the post-modern post-liberalism. We are past being PC. Cool. But David, your post above is based on so many flawed assumptions and conceptions that it punching at straw men.

>> In America, 44% of women aged 15 to 44 have chosen to remain childless and the trend is gathering paceÖ life in the West has never been better but it doesn't seem to have translated into greater human happiness. We are witnessing an epidemic of relationship breakdown.

This is a basic flaw in your thinking. People in the 50's used to use the term ìfailed marriageî for divorce. That was culturally appropriate. This is 2004. People choose serial monogamy. To part with a lover or girlfriend is not a failure, any more than death is a failure. It's is normal. It is supposed to happen that way. The greater failure is to compromise your individuality into ìthe relationshipî until you are so pussy whipped that you can't tell up from down. A ìsuccessfulî monogamous long term relationship? Didn't Dante describe that in one of his circles of hell? For many men and women, it would be far better to be in a series of ìusuccessfulî relationships.

Yeah, love leads to heartbreak. We all want to live forever. We want love to live forever. It can - in the same way that grass lives forever - through the rejuvenation of death and rebirth. The brightest and tastiest greens are from new sprouts.

I may marry again one day - if I meet true peer. I won't expect it to last, but I might give it a go. In the meantime, I plan for planned obsolescence. Many people think like me. Breaking up is not bad - it is supposed to happen that way. I was supposed to break up from grade 3. I was supposed to break up from my 1st wife. Yeah, it can hurt. That isn't bad. It is not an epidemic. How can you embrace living for a long time if you can't embrace dying a lot? It is supposed to happen that way. It is a good thing. We are experiencing an epidemic of people being honest individuals willing to move forward and get on with their lives, grieve and re-discover more appropriate loves. That's good.

Greg says:

My main point is that the notion of staying together should not be associated with any measure of sucess or health of the relationship. Often it is the opposite. My opinion is that the modern trends to divorce are much more healthy than they are unhealthy. We are getting closer to re-inventing ourselves as individuals, and becoming less constrained by a "what will the neighbours think" constricted mentality.

There have been scientific studies that show that of the people who remain married for more than 10 years, only 10% of these report that they remain married out of love. So making long term monogamy some aim or ideal is like making winning the lottery your career ambition.

Personally, I like to date Thai girls. I usually date at least two at a time - usually much younger than me, college educated or in college, from good family. I can't imagine ever marrying one. They can't think. They are trapped in a child's brain. They don't read. It's great, as far as it goes, but I am not likely to find a peer here.

tonychang says:

when you see a fit bird with an ugly old man do you think lucky guy or do you wonder why shes with him?

TANAI KWAI says:

Greg,

Your posts are thought-provoking and genuine. I would ask that you expand on the below:

"Personally, I like to date Thai girls. I usually date at least two at a time - usually much younger than me, college educated or in college, from good family. I can't imagine ever marrying one. They can't think. They are trapped in a child's brain. They don't read. It's great, as far as it goes, but I am not likely to find a peer here."

Obviously you reference a significant age difference here. But are you sure that the chasm you describe isn't based, at least in part, on a failure to speak one another's language with the mastery required to impart nuances and subtleties? (The way you describe it it's practically inter-species dating.) In other words, how different would it be to date college-aged Western women?

I have heard it said several times on this site that young Asian women "are trapped in a child's brain" or words to that effect. I don't fully understand the cultural forces at play that would at least lead you to this conclusion (though some have suggested the Thai educational system is quite poor). I have dealt with quite capable Thai females in the Thai judiciary, for example, who are definitely not children in any sense. Are they grotesquely exceptional in your view?

And is it really the norm that college-educated Thai women do not read (or perhaps read only schlock)? Or is the literary canon in Thailand just defined differently such that a properly educated Thai person might never read the Western authors we would deem indispensable?

Also, do Thai women "from good families" frequently date mature Farang gentlemen? In my experience, those who do are quite marriage-minded and would not tolerate knowing that they are just another horse in the stable. (Or, perhaps, are these women who are supplementing their income as numerous Thai college gals have been known to do?)

Lastly, you say you would never find a "peer" amongst the Thai women you date. By peer I presume you mean someone of equal intelligence and education. But I do not get the impression you are actually seeking a peer. Seems to me that "peers" are less inclined to be satisfied with a man who wants to "date" multiple women at a time. Peers are more inclined to know how to protect their legal rights through binding marriage contracts. Peers are more disposed to stand up for themselves and see themselves as equals in ways that make a certain kind of man uncomfortable. In brief, peers are more likely to resemble Western women.

(...)

Cynic says:

Tanai:

Well put. Does he want a physical peer as well LOL

Greg:

Scientific studies on marriage?? How do they do that? Put the couples in a petri dish?

You sound to me you're simply making excuses for your inability to maintain a relationship. So you settle for going out with Thai college girls knowing full well the reason they are going out with you and then use the excuse that it's because you can't relate to them intellectually that you'll never marry one.

Here's a question - why bother with the college girls then? If none of them are smart enough for you then why not get a right sexy slut from one of the entertainment districts??

You're all mixed up, like pasta prima vera

Greg says:

tonychang : when you see a fit bird with an ugly old man do you think lucky guy or do you wonder why shes with him?
Greg: Neither. I suppose they are both accepting various compromises for various benefits. Sometimes the body language seems to speak that they are both relatively happy and loving. Sometimes not. I have no moral questions about sugar daddys. I don't do that myself, as I prefer to completely separate all finances or promises of future finances from sexual relationships. Nobody fucks me for money or marriage.

-----------------

TANAI KWAI: Obviously you reference a significant age difference here. But are you sure that the chasm you describe isn't based, at least in part, on a failure to speak one another's language with the mastery required to impart nuances and subtleties?
Greg: Yes.

TANAI KWAI (The way you describe it it's practically inter-species dating.)
Greg: Have you ever had a mate so far above the rest that you thought of him as nearly a different species? Yes, people all over the world have vastly different capabilities and interests.

TANAI KWAI: In other words, how different would it be to date college-aged Western women?
Greg: In my early thirties I did date several western college aged women. We all had great and long conversations, often. They were capable of improvising a humorous fictional story. The Thais I've talked to tend to have nothing to say, and have no interesting comments or questions for anything I've said. I've dated about 10 girls here, and met people who have dated Thai women, and read the Stickman website and this website. There is a definite trend - it isn't just that I've happened to date boring girls. There is a pattern to the generalization.

TANAI KWAI: I have heard it said several times on this site that young Asian women "are trapped in a child's brain" or words to that effect. I don't fully understand the cultural forces at play that would at least lead you to this conclusion (though some have suggested the Thai educational system is quite poor). I have dealt with quite capable Thai females in the Thai judiciary, for example, who are definitely not children in any sense. Are they grotesquely exceptional in your view?
Greg: Many of us can on occasion rise to the level of rationality. Some people are permanently stationed at or above rationality. Few in any country integrate their full emotional and sexual being with rationality. Many of the SE Asian women I've met could be described as pre-rational, if not entirely incapable of rational, certainly unwilling of it. I would not say that about western women. I wrote a little essay on the stickman site you can see here http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/reader/reader444.html

TANAI KWAI: And is it really the norm that college-educated Thai women do not read (or perhaps read only schlock)? Or is the literary canon in Thailand just defined differently such that a properly educated Thai person might never read the Western authors we would deem indispensable?
Greg: I met one college girl who enjoyed and breazed through her English Lit classes. Generally I've heard and seen that reading anything other than a women's magazine or comic is very uncommon, outside of homework. Talking about ideas or philosophy is completely out of the question.

TANAI KWAI: Also, do Thai women "from good families" frequently date mature Farang gentlemen? In my experience, those who do are quite marriage-minded and would not tolerate knowing that they are just another horse in the stable. (Or, perhaps, are these women who are supplementing their income as numerous Thai college gals have been known to do?)
Greg: Frequently? I wouldn't know. Yes, I've had some marriage proposals. As to why the girls put up with me for as long as they do, I'm not sure. I've put up with similar when I had affairs with married women. There are plenty of women anywhere in the world from any background who are willing to step outside of the norm. Plenty of women with high status parents of any age will try casual dating, whether or not it leads to marriage. The stigma of getting laid and not getting married is to many people not terribly relevant nowadays.

TANAI KWAI :Lastly, you say you would never find a "peer" amongst the Thai women you date. By peer I presume you mean someone of equal intelligence and education. But I do not get the impression you are actually seeking a peer.
Greg: I would not expect to. I'd love to meet a peer and fall in love and get all serious, but I'm not exclusively looking for that. I don't particularly mind if I don't find that in the near term. I really enjoy casual dating - I really, really like it.

TANAI KWAI: Seems to me that "peers" are less inclined to be satisfied with a man who wants to "date" multiple women at a time. Peers are more inclined to know how to protect their legal rights through binding marriage contracts.
Greg: Woah now! Protect legal rights through marriage?? I bet your pardon? That is what pre-nups are for. Marriage is the opposite of protection. Like I said, it is my preference to completely divorce finances from relationship. I prefer just to be with someone for the sheer pleasure of it, for just as long as it seems appropriate. I know that women generally don't think that way, but some put up with it. I am not a marriage or child minded guy, and there are some women who are also not marriage minded who none the less are capable of deep love.

TANAI KWAI: Peers are more disposed to stand up for themselves and see themselves as equals in ways that make a certain kind of man uncomfortable. In brief, peers are more likely to resemble Western women
Greg: Agreed.

-----------------------

Cynic: Scientific studies on marriage?? How do they do that? Put the couples in a petri dish?
Greg: Why am I bothering to respond to a low quality troll? You seem more looking for an opportunity to snipe than an opportunity to get a meaningful answer to a meaningful question.

Cynic:You sound to me you're simply making excuses for your inability to maintain a relationship. So you settle for going out with Thai college girls knowing full well the reason they are going out with you and then use the excuse that it's because you can't relate to them intellectually that you'll never marry one.
Greg: Wow - you know a lot about me already! Did you ever see a Waldorf School doll? They have no faces, so that the children can learn to project their imaginary relationships on them more easily. I think I'll avoid conversing with you Cynic, as I feel my face falling off.

Cynic: Here's a question - why bother with the college girls then? If none of them are smart enough for you then why not get a right sexy slut from one of the entertainment districts??
Greg: Not my style. I prefer at least a little love. There are many aspects of relationship that I find meaningful. I take what I can get, and it can be good, for what it's worth. If you don't approve, why bother sharing? Is that supposed to have some value to you, or me, or to anyone?

Cynic says:

Just sniping Greg. There are plenty of types of relationships between Farang men and Thai women. But when you make a comment about preferring to date, two or more simultaneously, women who are "usually much younger than me, college educated or in college", I get a bit suspicious. Especially when you claim that they don't sleep with you for money or marriage.

Congratulations on finding educated Thai girls "much younger" than you, who are prepared to sleep with you without you committing to providing security or financial assistance. From the bulk of experiences that I've read of and have been related to me, this is quite an anomaly.

BTW how old are you? I presume the college girls you go out with are between 20 -25 yrs in most cases. You say they are much younger than you.

As for the projection thing. There may be some truth to it, or it just may be jealousy on my part, or perhaps you wrote something that cut close to the bone. Anyway, I look forward to some more information about your views on this topic.

Greg says:

Hi Cynic. I'm 38. I have met women online and just out and about. I'm not terribly attractive, nor repulsive. A small pot belly, a bit balding, but still in fair shape. Currently I have two girlfriends - one 19 and in school, the other 24. I'm always straight up with my intentions. Over this last year several girls got fed up with the fact that I would not stop seeing other girls. No one really likes it. But my heart is not a machine - I feel as much as I feel - no more and no less. I'm kind and caring and usually kinda fun to be with. But I am not marriage material for them due the fact that I am me, nor are the girls that I date marriage material for me. That's completely fine by me.

There was one girl I was serious about whom I proposed to. She came very close to marrying me, but unfortunately was already engaged. She's from Pakistan - a peerless woman. She's now happily married and living in San Fancisco. We are still in love, and that's a good thing. Worth every excrutiating bit of dentist drill quality pain.

I'm spending a lazy oversexed day in bed with my 19 year old friend. Life is not bad. She is happy. I'm happy.

Greg says:

Oh, I forgot to say - she was a virgin a month ago. I also had a 6 month relationship with a 30 year old woman who lost her virginity in my bed. We loved each other. It does not seem inapropriate or bad that we split up, nor a mistake that we got close.

Cynic says:

How long ago was the Pakistani girl?

Greg says:

She left Thailand at Xmas. We were together for 6 weeks.

Greg says:

By the way, she is 20. Her husband is 42. My ex soul mate in the US is 11 years older than me. Her ex husband is 15 years older. Big age differences can sometimes be a powerful kink - good on both sides.

Nahm says:

I'm totally grrrrrossed out by you Greg. So much so I can't even write back a constructive comment, just Grrrrrross!

Nahm says:

I'm totally grrrrrossed out by you Greg. So much so I can't even write back a constructive comment, just Grrrrrross!

Pedant says:

You're right, Nahm, it wasn't a constructive comment. So why post it twice?

Greg says:

1 year ago I dated a very attractive 26 year old Thai girl. She complained to me that I was too young for her. Jing jing.

Greg says:

Last year I dated a 26 year old very attractive Thai woman. She complained that I was too young for her. She was in love with her married 44 year old UK daddy. Jing jing.

Greg says:

Hi Nahm. Ya, that's one of the good luck virtues of life, I think. People that totally gross you out are still pretty sexy to someone else. I think that's very a very lucky good thing. What do you think?

Greg says:

Oh, and not only was I too young for the very sexy 26 year old, my pot belly wasn't big enough. I'm not making this up.

Billy P says:

Greg I 've had four long term relationships with ladies (more than 4 years) and had quite a few short term ones. Also quite a few with Thai ladies - one for 3 years.
But I have not come across the type of woman you seem to pick up on a reguklar basis.
They all want something be it money or marriage, and usually both.
So I'm sorry but I think you are either blatantly lying, or you are insensitive to their wants i.e. you don't realise or don't care what they are aiming to get from you. They probably hang on hoping for th best - as women tend to do, but will leave eventuallty. I think thsi is what you are experiencing.
The fact that you are "kind" probably encourages them to think you will form a long term relationship in the end.

TANAI KWAI says:

Greg:

I am still forming a picture of you. I was not able to access your Stickman post using that URL. Perhaps you could try again or post the operative portion.(?)

Nahm:

This is an opportunity for you to learn something about a person you suggest is utterly unlike yourself. If you are unable to make a constructive comment why not ask a constructive question?

(...)

Greg says:

Hi Billy. Yes, you are right that I am selfish in my disregard for women's desire for marriage and security. You are right that some women delude themselves into thinking that no matter how often I say that I'm not serious about them and that I will never marry them that if they just play the good little wife I'll eventually come around. I am not insensitive to this desire of many women for marriage and security. I just don't think that it is my responsibility. I'm honest and straightforward. I see that as my responsibility. I don't see it as my responsibility to mould myself into an inapropriate role. It wouldn't make anyone any happier.

That said, there are some times when marriage and money is not on a woman't mind. My 19 year old girlfriend is a bit in love with me, but wouldn't dream of marrying me. She is not fucking me for money. And she really loves me. We know it isn't going to last. A point I have been trying to make is that the relationship lasting a long time or leading to marriage is not always relevant. At least divorce statistics are no indicator of the general health of relationships. Divorce is healthy.

Greg says:

Hi Tanai. If cutting and pasting http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/reader/reader444.html into your browser doesn't work, try going to stickmanbangkok.com , clicking on reader submissions 2, and then doing a search on the page for Stupid. Mine will be the 2nd post with the word Stupid in the title, and is titled "Are They Just Stupid?"

Greg says:

Hi Tanai - I'm not sure if it is appropriate to paste the full article here, but it is on topic with the thread.

Are they just stupid?

Don't expect to talk with a peer. You have to translate.

When she says "All you ever did was bring me pain and then you left me", she isn't telling you that she didn't deeply feel your love and appreciate all your tender ministrations. She isn't saying she's forgotten all the laughter and generosity and good times. She is telling you that her feelings are hurt. And she is telling you that her mind is not so unified that she can experience black and white at the same time. If she is sad now, it means that at a conscious level everything is bad, now. Good can have it's time later, as long as it doesn't remind her of heartbreak now. No need to acknowledge that there was ever any good, that would only make her feel bad, now. No need to acknowledge to you that you ever made her happy, because you couldn't possibly have real feelings, otherwise she would not feel pain.

We're dealing with kids here. And those of you who are dating women with consistent symptoms of borderline personality disorder are dealing with pathologically underdeveloped kids - not even 15 year old kids by western standards. I don't care if you have kids and a house, get a new cell number, and go. Get out - get out now! NOW!

What does a man have to do to find a woman who doesn't assume that once she has made pussy- bonds with you she has the right to bug you? I'm afraid to tell a woman that I love her. Not only because I'm afraid of bonds and commitment, but because if I do I know she'll think she's earned her certificate to bug me. "Oh, now everything he does or says falls under the sway of my Pussy! Long live Queen Pussy! Make offerings to the Queen!"

In all of SE Asia, where is the woman who has any interests outside of primping if she is single and babies if she is married? My idea of love is that it is bandwidth. The greater the depth and profundity of communication, the greater the love. Great intimate sex is love. Opening in the eyes can be a high bandwidth experience. And there is a lot more of us that yearns to communicate. Music, literature, philosophy, art, poetry, sports, martial arts, meditation. There are so many interesting avenues of growth and exploration. These endeavors change a person, if pursued with passion. Just about any endeavor can change a person, if it is pursued with passion.

So where are the interesting arts in Asia? What hobbies foster the development of personality, culture, and soul? Someone, please, someone, answer me.

Many people of different cultures call each other savages. To the Thais we are savages. To many of us the Thais seem savage. But do we have any gauges that can work cross-culturally? Is there a way to measure development cross-culturally? Many will be surprised, perhaps even shocked, perhaps even histrionically livid to hear that yes, there are many empirically validated means of testing development, along more than 10 cross-cultural lines of human potential. People grow up, and we grow up in a consistent pattern of stages, no matter what culture you are from. We may have all been born equal, but not all of us develop equal.

A very interesting read that goes into lines of development is A Brief History of Everything by Ken Wilber.

For all the egalitarians out there, go ahead and apologize for anyone that is developmentally disabled. They lacked resources. They lacked societal supports. Yup. They very likely did. Then go ahead and take a breath, and look around. At the beginning and end of the day, deep down, under our skin, we are different people. Different levels of testosterone providing different levels of aggression and sexual desire. Different levels of training allowing for different levels of diplomacy. Different averages of IQ of our parents and forefathers allowing for different potential processing speeds of our own gray CPUs. Whatever our theories, we have to test them against what we can experience. We test by measurement, and we don't all measure equally. Not fair, but that doesn't mean not true. We all may be equally deserving, but let's not take that correct and respectable spiritual intuition too far to mean that we are therefore all the same, in a relative sense.

It seems to me that much of what is required to develop as a person to average western standards is not here in the culture of Thailand. The society does not allow what is needed for emotional development. You can't talk about emotions with others here, so you therefore can not develop from an impulsive individual to a reasonable one. You are your emotions, you are not seeing your emotions. If you are having an emotion, it is because there is an outward cause, so you should fix the outward cause. Self reflexivity is not developed here. Rational thought as well as creativity are also actively stifled here. So even if you wind up with a genius girlfriend of good family and expensive education, her gifts aren't likely to have been well fostered.

Has anyone met a SE Asian woman who could improvise an interesting fictional story?

Has anyone met a SE Asian woman who can discuss literature - who reads literature - who knows what is or is not literature? In the city I used to live in a good proportion of the women I met had not only read Ken Wilber, but could have an actual discussion about how his ideas related to their life. I have yet to have an actual discussion with a SE Asian woman. I do soliloquies, for my own entertainment. I've long ago given up on getting any sort of novel feedback. I'm just happy if they understand the words I'm saying. If the level of conversation requires anything that I would call thinking, they will nod earnestly and look at you in the eyes, as if being a good and agreeable woman was what you were looking to get from the conversation.

Being in Asia, for many of us, is to be frustrated. Or worse yet, to forget why we were once frustrated. Well, that's going too far. I'm lucky that I have good falang friends to talk to - so those needs for communication are being met. A person can adapt. But I can't imagine marrying a Thai woman. I want a woman who gets my jokes, and who makes me laugh also. Someone with which I can speak at my own level and not need to translate down to and up from child's level. I need more than a 56kbps connection. I like to be inspired.

Stickman says:

Wow, this gives real food for thought and frankly, I find it very hard to disagree with any of it...

Trong Com says:

Tanai, have you gotten the picture yet? It just arrived in dazzling technicolor.

Greg, if I may suggest a topic for your next meditation: self-delusion.

And after you've worked through that, you may want to reflect on the kids you abandoned.

Dr Nick Riviera says:

Hi Everybody!

"Last year I dated a 26 year old very attractive Thai woman. She complained that I was too young for her. She was in love with her married 44 year old UK daddy. Jing jing."

Of course she was, dear.

"Oh, and not only was I too young for the very sexy 26 year old, my pot belly wasn't big enough. I'm not making this up."

I don't doubt that you're not

Also Thai girls don't like Thai men.

Oh and all farang are beautiful/handsome.

Mmm, I have to go now. I'm paying $5000 to go to a seminar that will show me how to get rich beyaond my wildest dreams.

Dr Nick Riviera says:

Also, farang farts do not smell.

Dana says:

Jesus, guys--give it a rest. You're wearing me out. Here, I'll help you--save you some time.

Farangs do not have relationships with Thai women. Thai women have relationships with Farangs. Everything that happens to the Farang is a surprise to him. Having a relationship with a Thai woman is like running through the woods at night with your eyes open. It is only a matter of time before you get a twig in the eye. If you don't want to get a twig in the eye then don't run through the woods. But don't fool yourself into thinking you are having a relationship with the tree.

Nahm says:

OK soÖ I am over being grossed out and ready for debating.

I read this board because I find the commentary from men fascinating, aswell as annoying and infuriating but still fascinating. What I find perculiar about the comments, is the macho (I know its male-centric) but nevertheless, macho chauvanism at its worse. I am very intrigued by cross-racial relationships, especially living in Thailand as you see many. This board debates such relationships A LOTÖOK more sexual exploits, but nevertheless, I come to read and hopefully be enlightened about some of the motives of the men and women within these relationships. There are many stigmas attached to these relationships in Thai society and Farang circles and I would like to get some first hand opinion on the matter rather than just making assumptions from observation or third party opinion. But alas, I am always so sorely dissapointed. When you enter a string, almost all discussions or should I say, almost all self-indulgent wank-offs are written by some, self-deluded, tripper who is wishing to share their sexual exploits and conquests in a public space. Take Greg for example: ëÖOh, I forgot to say - she was a virgin a month ago. I also had a 6 month relationship with a 30 year old woman who lost her virginity in my bed...' It's like going back to school after Christmas when you were a kid and loudly gobbing off about what presents you got, with not a real care for what they really are and who gave them too you.

Now then, let's talk about Greg again, he's such a good example. He talks about seeking his true ëPeer'. This is absolutely fine, we all want to respect someone we love and connect too on similar levels, but it doesn't mean if we don't meet that in a women we have to treat them as mere dolls or sex objects. This was just one of the reasons why Greg grossed me out. Here are a few moreÖ

ëI'm spending a lazy oversexed day in bed with my 19-year-old friend. Life is not bad. She is happy. I'm happy'. Why is it that still so many men in our supposed ëPost-modern / Post-Liberal' world still look at women as mere objects of desire? Toys to be played with and destroyed. Toys to make us feel better. ëShe's happy, I'm happy'. So what you saying here Greg that you made her come mutliple times and that makes your ego feel good? Or is it that she is truly very happy to be sharing her time with you? I'm sorry but you made it sound so arrogant and conceited.

Another Greg momentÖ ëPersonally, I like to date Thai girls. I usually date at least two at a timeÖI can't imagine ever marrying oneÖThey are trapped in a child's brainÖI am not likely to find a peer here.' OK, so way to go Greg! Well done son for scoring three top bits of young totty all at one go. But just because you're not going to find your peer here with child-brianed young Thai girls, why do you continue to entertain 3 girls at a time, because you can? Well I suppose we all do that in some format or another - when we can get away with something we do it again and again. Or is it because you are deluded that these girls are not having sex with you for something? OK reality check, so you may never give them what they want financially or other, but their initial motives still prevail.

Mr Greg also talks of Thai-women ëÖas pre-rational or incapable of rationalisingÖ' Do you only interact with Thai-females in Thailand? Do you have any Thai-male friends? I think you will find that this inability to rationalise is a cross-gender problem in Thailand. I reckon its got something to do with the fact we're all living in a ëdeveloping' country whose education system is fucked and who's governement are more interested in spending their money on other things such as, Liverpool Football Club, rather than investing in a decent education system. A recent survey carried out by a top BKK University showed that only 1 percent of the Thai population can critically thinkÖ this may have something to do with your so called problems with Thai women.

Oh here's another beauty: ëÖI prefer just to be with someone for the sheer pleasure of it, for just as long as it seems appropriate. I know that women generally don't think that way, but some put up with itÖ' Yeah only some fools, and there is probably good reason for that too, because they are poor, emotionally trapped or being crushed by some such other male ridicule of life. And why wouldn't women want to be with men for sheer pleasure too?

Oh and another: ëÖI am not a marriage or child minded guy, and there are some women who are also not marriage minded who none the less are capable of deep love.' Jeeeesus women were not just put on this earth to be fucked, to reproduce and nurture. Of course we are capable of deep love and of course we don't all want or can have children. Please stop writing in such an insensitive and derogerative manner.

Oh just one more: ëÖCurrently I have two girlfriends - one 19 and in school, the other 24. I'm always straight up with my intentions.' So you say to them look luv, I hope you don't mind, but I am only going to be fucking you cos you're a sweet, pretty young thing and I am 38, bald, not attractive, but not replusive, with a pot belly, Oh yeah and I know you're going to like this one, I will be shagging another one or two (if I'm lucky) of you little beautiesÖ that's if you don't mind like!??? BULLLSHITÖ who are you kidding??

So by the way Greg its not you're described physical appearance that's grossing me out, it's you're attitudeÖ geeees man can be so superficial!

***So why do you think young college girls (we're talking ages 18 to mid twenties) want to go out with 40 year old men? What qualities do you think they see in you as an older man?

Anonymous says:

some 40 year old men are quite attractive to younger women for a lot of reasons. I think you're just a bit jealous, because he has no interest at all in you. The power you have over men in the west doesnt exist in thailand. tough luck. go back to where you came from, i'm sure you'll find yourself a lapdog there.

Rita says:

Dana: loved your "twig-in-the-eye" metaphor for farang-TG couplings...I found it to be quite powerful in its capacity to shatter The Myth. Brilliantly constructed, this metaphor is a powerful reminder that viable human relationships are possible only to the extent that each party is able/willing to understand who the other really is. Given the nearly intractible combination of age, culture, language barriers (to name a few), impacting most farang-TG relationships, understanding one another is essentially an unattainable goal.

TANAI KWAI says:

Greg:

Your posts are nothing if not a clear and honest representation of your truth. I admire your efforts to arrive at some unifying themes from what you have experienced.

My own feeling is that you may be missing certain parts of the puzzle -- not on an intellectual level, but on an emotional level. In most societies the majority of women (with apologies to Nahm) derive meaning from building a relationship with a man. Their appetite for connection and intimacy with their man is insatiable. But for men who fit your model the lust and wanderlust of such men is insatiable. (Sure, you have other fulfilling interests through which you express yourself but your life would presumably be a hollow shell were you to experience an industrial accident that claimed your penis.)

The appetites of such men and women naturally conflict but they are each extraordinarily compelling and legitimate. Thus, certain statements you make don't resonate with me because they do not seem to be empathetic in this regard:

"What does a man have to do to find a woman who doesn't assume that once she has made pussy- bonds with you she has the right to bug you?"

The fact is, they want what they want every bit as much as you want to have your pussy. There is no "solution" to this equation.

I have yet to meet a sexually disposed man who would be so "up front" with a woman as to jeopardize his chances of bedding her. You show her at least a small bit of daylight that allows her at least the faint hope that you might be tamed one day. This is the aphrodisiac in which you deal. (I think Nahm made this point more effectively but that's my angle on it)

If you participate in relationships with such women, whether you are explicitly "up front" or not, you should not complain about the inconvenience caused by the debris you leave in your wake. Goes with the territory.

On the one hand, you conclude that these women-children are irrational or even pre-rational. But yet you purport to absolve yourself of guilt and pain because you behave rationally and in an "up front" manner with them. Well, let me tell you, I agree with a lot of what you have to say but I have felt a great deal of pain when I have broken someone's heart and crushed their illusions. And in these cases I could not have been more emphatic in communicating, at least on a conscious level, that there was no future there. But if you touch a person with love and gentleness and a level of caring they may have never experienced before, you are sending all manner of messages that string her along. All I am saying is these people are real. There is a cost. It is a heavy one. And I, personally, don't know how to avoid it because (a) I am attracted to these relationships (a fact which probably disgusts the Nahms of the world, who wish men like me didn't exist) and (b) I can't help caring for these women and that makes it worse.

Now then, you also state that you are so bored to tears with these girls that you engage in a Proustian superimposition of art over life. But perhaps it is the very fact that they are tabula rasae for you to imprint and minister unto that makes them so attractive? You want them to laugh at your jokes and to be made to laugh also -- perhaps in that order with an emphasis on the former? Lots of room to be self-indulgent and not be called on it in a relationship like that. If this weren't satisfying would you be so drawn to such girls? There are plenty of young Western girls around BKK and they aren't all inattentive to their personal appearance as some have claimed.

Lastly, the bit about your pot belly not being big enough may have been on the real, but it is a frequent line used on farangs. I have shared a few laughs with Thai gals about such things (but I admit, they were working girls and you indicate that you don't consort with those). If a Thai woman is interested in you, a farang man, for your money, marriage potential and because you are "kind," she might prefer you to be old (but not too old) and fat (but not too fat). Easier to hold on to you that way. Some might find the Beckham types to be too challenging to control -- but it sure as hell isn't because they disdain a rock-hard body.

I don't know if Nahm is a Pamela Anderson look-a-like or whether she has been hurt on any level by what she reads here but these is definitely some truth in what she writes. And I submit that her outspokenness, be it sheer illuminating brilliance or otherwise, would be a turn-off to many who post here. (No value judgment here whatosever.)

Nahm, there are some men out there who are equally disgusted by this group of Mango-istas. They are loyal men with bumperstickers that say "I [heart] my wife," and the like. You might say they are men of better and higher character. I would suggest that they are, at least in part, wired differently. They don't struggle with issues of fidelity any more than most would struggle with giving up liver for Lent. They don't seek to disport themselves in foreign fleshpots across the globe, some of whom honestly do treat women like disposable toys. Sometimes I wonder if those good and loyal men would behave differently had they been to the mountain and seen the promised land of such pleasures. I guess I'll never know.

(...)

TANAI KWAI says:

"Given the nearly intractible combination of age, culture, language barriers (to name a few), impacting most farang-TG relationships, understanding one another is essentially an unattainable goal."

Yes, and it kills some people that -- this supposedly unbridgeable chasm notwithstanding -- a lot of men are happy as pigs* in slop in such arrangements. And if this is a Myth or if they are dreaming, please don't wake them.

Fakkin' kills 'em I tells ya. (Where's a hooligan when you need one?)

(...)

[*Male Chauvanist or otherwise.]

Billy P says:

Have any of you people heard of the expression "straining at the gnat"?

Anonymous says:

all bull. you get much more for your money in thailand than you do in the west. simple as. some women like older men. sorry, but its just a fact. you might not like it, but thats how it is. some men like older women. i know many women who are more attractive at 40 than many are at 20. women in the west are getting fatter by the minute. women in the west are also sleeping with more partners by the minute. both facts. no wonder western men are looking for women who are a little thinner and not having casual sex with as many people.

Anonymous says:

Ritas a bit jealous too i think. lol. i bet shes fat

Anonymous says:

and i find it hard to believe tanai kwai has ever broken someone's heart. i would have thrown a party to have gotten rid of that. and i'm sure most others would too. i bet its another fat one.

Anonymous says:

just get on a diet girls, if it bothers you that much. but just dont tell all the western guys about the girls in bkk or you'll be sat eating burgers and pizzas by yourselves. leave it to the lucky few who've found it.

TANAI KWAI says:

Show yourself, anonymous douchebag!

Did I break your heart or was it your Mama's?

(5' 9", 165 lbs)

Dana says:

Hello Rita--Thanks for the support and thanks for making a post that has no name calling. Actually, the problem you speak of is more than a problem. A problem without a solution is not a problem--it is a conundrum. Cunundrums in math or physics are intellectually stimulating--conundrums in human emotions tear the heart to pieces.

Regarding discussion of sex by males in general:

The lowest skill that a man can practise is having sex with women. Sex is a women's currency to get what they want. I don't know what it is like in the little nation of weekend gardeners who think that soccer is a sport but here in the United States all you have to do to get sex is mention that you are in a Rock 'n Roll band, ask her what her astrological sign is, and tell her you love her. The legs open. She was looking for Mr. Right but you seem to have cracked the code. Cheap goods cheaply sold. So men bragging about sexual exploits are men bragging about winning at an easy game. When children do this you smile indulgently.

Ergo: It may be that many visitors to the Kingdom are not sex tourists at all. Sex was being given away to the low bidder in their own countries. They are love tourists. Men hoping to find a woman that will smile at them and mean it when she does it. These are quality men looking for quality lives with quality people. Calling them sex tourists may miss the point. So maybe we men should go easy on each other. How can looking for love be politically incorrect? If I travel to Thailand hoping another human being will see my value how can that possibly attract negative notice? If looking for love ever becomes politically incorrect--I don't want to live in this world any more. Chok dee

Anonymous says:

i bet dana's fat too.

Anonymous says:

i bet dana's fat too.

David says:

To the guy who never adds a name to his comments - If you don't add a name, you don't get a link from the home page no one gets to read your comment. I've been laboriously adding the name "Anonymous" to them but I think you're old enough to wipe your own arse now - David.

Greg says:

Hi Nahm.

I'm not sure if I should try to address your post. A lot of your complaints I simply don't understand, and so can't really comment.

>Nahm:It's like going back to school after Christmas when you were a kid and loudly gobbing off about what presents you got, with not a real care for what they really are and who gave them too you.
G: I don't understand why you take issue with a bit of sharing about good luck. I really don't. I understand the spin you put on it, that it is egotistical bragging that demeans and undermines the value of the women involved, and objectifies them. I disagree that it is possible to objectify a woman. Women are already objects, I have no power to make them more or less so. I'm an object too. You would prefer that I only appreciate mental characteristics? Why would you prefer that I not brag about my great fortune to commune with a lovely young lady, and mention the very pertinent info that she was a Virgin? I honestly don't get it.

> Nahm: ...but it doesn't mean if we don't meet that in a women we have to treat them as mere dolls or sex objects.
G: Agreed. Not merely dolls and not merely sex objects. But if my girlfriend didn't treat me like a sex object at times, I'd be sorely disappointed. I am a sex object. And so is my girlfriend. Not merely one, of course.

>Nahm: Why is it that still so many men in our supposed ëPost-modern / Post-Liberal' world still look at women as mere objects of desire? Toys to be played with and destroyed. Toys to make us feel better. ëShe's happy, I'm happy'.
G: Again, I have no idea what your complaint is. What have you got against sexual communion? If you want more than mere sex, good for you. Do you want me to want more than that, is that it? Ok, here's the thing. I have a hierarchy of needs. Sex is a very basic need. Other intimacies are also deeply important, such as verbal communication. Deep loving bonds and being mated is great. Long term mutual support is good. But for a deep loving committed relationship I need an appropriate partner - not anyone will do. For good sex, there are many more opportunities. I don't equate sex with being partnered with someone that I look to fulfill all those other important needs. You imply that I should. I disagree. I see no problem having a casual relationship that is based largely on sex and just hanging out enjoying each others company. I'm not an aberration in this attitude, and I can not see any problem with it.

> Nahm: So what you saying here Greg that you made her come mutliple times and that makes your ego feel good? Or is it that she is truly very happy to be sharing her time with you? I'm sorry but you made it sound so arrogant and conceited.
G: Could you somehow re-write what I said and not make it sound arrogant and conceited? I would suspect not. I would suspect that there is something in my attitude towards relationship that is deeply troubling to you, and there would be no way to express taking joy in a casual sexual relationship that would be palatable to you.

>Nahm: But just because you're not going to find your peer here with child-brianed young Thai girls, why do you continue to entertain 3 girls at a time, because you can?
G: That's a good question. I find that if I see one girl a lot, she starts to really irritate me. If I then don't see her for a while and see someone else, when I see the 1st girl again everything is fresh, and I can appreciate her better. Also everyone has some deficits. If I see more than one woman my various needs can be met and I don't' resent my one girl for not being perfect. I'm more satisfied. The sex is better. It really works for me. Of course when I'm in love with a mate the rules are very different. That is not a casual sexual relationship. For casual sexual relationships multiple partners can be very fulfilling. I did not invent this type of relationship, it has been going on for hundreds of thousands of years and millions of people in all countries live like this and always will. I suspect that it is not your style and you do not condone it and the idea of it sickens you. Different strokes for different folks.

>Nahm: Or is it because you are deluded that these girls are not having sex with you for something? OK reality check, so you may never give them what they want financially or other, but their initial motives still prevail.
G: Wow, your powers of mind are truly awesome. I had no idea that you were omniscient. You understand the minds of women you have never met based on the knowledge that they are having a casual sexual relationship and that there is an age difference. Hats off to you.

Nahm: A recent survey carried out by a top BKK University showed that only 1 percent of the Thai population can critically thinkÖ this may have something to do with your so called problems with Thai women.
G: Well, ya. Umm, you seem a bit argumentative. You are agreeing with a problem that I have but seem to at the same time be disagreeing, or something. Ya, I wrote a whole long article about that problem. Are you suggesting that I didn't see that problem?

>Nahm: Oh here's another beauty: ëÖI prefer just to be with someone for the sheer pleasure of it, for just as long as it seems appropriate. I know that women generally don't think that way, but some put up with itÖ' Yeah only some fools, and there is probably good reason for that too, because they are poor, emotionally trapped or being crushed by some such other male ridicule of life. And why wouldn't women want to be with men for sheer pleasure too?
G: Again - are you agreeing or disagreeing? You seem merely argumentative, but not saying anything. Yes, many women at times do just want to be with men for the sheer pleasure of it, and not for motives of money or marriage. I don't think that is foolish at all. I don't think one needs to be poor or emotionally trapped or crushed in order enjoy time with a casual sex partner. Do you?

> Nahm: Jeeeesus women were not just put on this earth to be fucked, to reproduce and nurture. Of course we are capable of deep love and of course we don't all want or can have children. Please stop writing in such an insensitive and derogerative manner.
G: I don't understand you Nahm. What is your disagreement? That I spend time with women and fuck? Is that somehow insensitive and derogatory? Would it somehow be more seemly if I spent time with women and did not fuck? Well, I do that too. I have several Thai female friends that I see regularly that I don't fuck. Is that somehow better?

>Nahm: BULLLSHITÖ who are you kidding??
G: I have no response to this. I don't even understand what people on this board find so hard to believe. I wonder if some would be surprised to learn that there are many Thai women who live a lifestyle similar to me, and some even more extreme. One girl I sometimes see likes to husband shop as well as just fuck around a lot for fun. She is so sexy - I really like her. She's a bitch, but she is straight up about who she is and doesn't apologize. I respect that. I know one college girl who chooses to only fuck men twice. I know a falang man my age who does the same. I know a Thai girl who likes to keep a regular boyfriend but is also a real party girl and fucks around a lot. Is that so incredible? People put women in categories according to their sexual preferences, and say that the ìgoodî girls don't do that. Good in that sense is meaningless - all it means is that the girls who don't do that don't do that. Girls from all classes, high or low, and at all ages, young and old, have different sexual preferences. There are loads of women who like to have casual sex, and there are loads who like serial monogamy, and there are loads who like monogamy. I'm surprised that people are surprised by that.

And while I am honest with my girlfriends, I am also as sensitive and as discreet as I know how to be. My rule is that I never discuss the other women, and I never answer my phone when I'm with a lover. That doesn't ease all jealousy and pain, but it puts boundaries around the relationships.

>Nahm: ***So why do you think young college girls (we're talking ages 18 to mid twenties) want to go out with 40 year old men? What qualities do you think they see in you as an older man?
G: Well, I'm not dead yet. I'm just 38. It's really not that bad. It isn't like I'm 80 or something. You apparently have no sexual attraction to guys my age, but it surprises me that it surprises you that some women would be attracted to a man my age. I assume you are not familiar with the archetypical sexual relationship of older father figure man and younger to be taken care of woman. Mixing the father daughter archetype with a sexual relationship is hugely powerful. Many women really really like to see their lover as a father figure. You obviously don't. I'm surprised you had never heard of that before.

Greg says:

Hi Tanai,

T: My own feeling is that you may be missing certain parts of the puzzle -- not on an intellectual level, but on an emotional level. In most societies the majority of women (with apologies to Nahm) derive meaning from building a relationship with a man. Their appetite for connection and intimacy with their man is insatiable. But for men who fit your model the lust and wanderlust of such men is insatiable.
G: I prefer to think of myself as capable of a wide range of sexual relationships, from the most casual to the most profound and committed. I am aware of how the various relationships on the rainbow can work, and the rules and regulations that govern them. I don't merely do casual, or merely do non-monogamous. Nor do I merely do monogamy and marriage. With some partners who I enjoy being intimate with there is no grounds to deepen the relationship past a casual sexual one. It is in such cases that I hold my ground and refuse to be pussy whipped. I've found something very surprising. After a woman makes demands, I can simply say ìnoî. It's amazing. ìNoî. Wonderful word. I think a lot of men would be surprised to learn what happens after saying no. After she get's her head around that, she can re-adjust her expectations. Or not. No is a great word.

T: The appetites of such men and women naturally conflict but they are each extraordinarily compelling and legitimate. Thus, certain statements you make don't resonate with me because they do not seem to be empathetic in this regard:
G: Yes, I suppose that I may have hardened a bit over the years. I've been deeply in love many times, had many cases of unrequited love, I've been loved more than I love back and have loved more than I've been loved back. I do appreciate the seriousness of bonds and the power of loving relationships, but I am a tad cavalier about it all now. I know that love doesn't kill, and I know that there is absolutely no way to avoid the pain of love. I figure that the pain comes with the territory, and so absolve myself somewhat of the pain of causing heartbreak by knowing that heartbreak is simply inevitable. I'm still capable of deep love, and very recently myself was hugely heartbroken. I don't see that heartbreak as any sort of problem. That's just how things work. I'm responsible to be kind, but I can't re-write the rules of nature.

I think it's a bit of a crime to tell someone that you love them if you don't. In the same way it's a bit of a crime to pretend to want and sustain deeper bonds in a relationship than you really want. But I don't see love as an all or nothing affair.

Greg says:

Oh - about pot bellies. One girl I date - the 19 year old - does not want me to diet. The other does. I've dated girls who hugely preferred me slim, and I've dated girls who did not feel warm unless her man had a bit of a belly. People are different. Go figure. Myself I prefer very tiny small girls. Tiny small hands are a huge turn on to me. I'm lucky because the tiny girls usually think they are too small. Kinks are great, aren't they? No matter how weird looking you are, there is probably someone out there with a strange kinky attraction to you. Yes, fat is generally unattractive, but I have met several women who prefer a little belly. Personally I watch my weight and go to the gym regularly, as I know that on average I can pull a lot better that way.

Billy P says:

The only thing we know about Greg, is that he spends loads of time at his computer composing and typing articles. His pieces are mostly boasting about his exploits and how little he puts into his relationships. Most of us do not like braggarts, and we do not believe most of what he says. Because of this some of us argue with his submissions.

Why bother? Just say, "You've flogged the subject to death Greg, and we don't believe you anyway"

TANAI KWAI says:

Greg,

I definitely appreciate the care with which you've delineated your relationships and emotions. I happen to believe you are taking a valiant shot at honesty here. And your exegesis and vivisection of Nahm's post was nicely done.

But getting back to where the rubber meets the road I couldn't help noticing that the omitted the one portion of her post that still retains its vitality and logic in the face of your otherwise searing rebuke. She writes (quoting you):

"ëÖCurrently I have two girlfriends - one 19 and in school, the other 24. I'm always straight up with my intentions.' So you say to them look luv, I hope you don't mind, but I am only going to be fucking you cos you're a sweet, pretty young thing and I am 38, bald, not attractive, but not replusive, with a pot belly, Oh yeah and I know you're going to like this one, I will be shagging another one or two (if I'm lucky) of you little beautiesÖ that's if you don't mind like!??? "

Yes, you did make a later allusion a couple of posts down about being fit and earlier about being decent-looking, which would take some of the wind out of her sails if you are able to be objective about this. But my own sense is that to say something akin to Nahm's riff above to these nymphets -- even in a candy-coated manner -- would not be the best way to chart a course for one's heat-seeking missile.

In brief, since I think some of the women you describe are less common than the kind of women I suspect most of us thought you were describing, it is tough for me to imagine that your "up front" approach would be a viable paradigm outside of the bars. But I ain't mad atcha.

Dana,

You write:

"...here in the United States all you have to do to get sex is mention that you are in a Rock 'n Roll band, ask her what her astrological sign is, and tell her you love her. The legs open."

I just don't see how you can take pleasure in writing stuff like this. I think you have talent and an interesting voice but some of your juvenalia and gratuitous bombthrowing at our comrades-in-arms kind of make me wonder whether you wouldn't benefit from an ass-kicking by a horde of soccer-playing gardeners.

I wouldn't presume to rein you in but if you'd dial it back a notch you might feel a bit more at peace when you hit "post." (This from a guy who's posted his share of infuriating drivel.)

(winky)

Greg says:

Hi Tanai. Well, I thought that I had addressed her comment by saying that do my best to mix being discrete with being honest.

And yes, being non-monogomous is frought with all sorts of problems, and creates all sorts of difficulties. The girls generally don't like it. I do it anyway, and I enjoy that lifestyle. There it is.

When I first posted on this thread I didn't really expect the conversation to go where it did. I meant to open up a discussion about seeing death of relationships as healthy. I hadn't expected disbelief and jealousy and outright agression towards my lifestyle. I'd have thought that what I am doing here is pretty common.

I have met one grey haired man in his early fifties who is quite successful with the young woman here. He is a fair bit more handsome than me though, and extremely outgoing and charming. It has been quite a surprise to me to hear the response of people to older men dating several young women. I don't yet understand what is behind the negative response.

Greg the unwanted voice says:

I'm a bit drunk. I should not be pressing any keyboard keys. Warning - Gregografic material. View at your own risk.

Like most of us meat heads, I'd like to organize my perceptions into some meaningful whole. Why are people put off by the notion of an older guy having sexual "success" with several young women? I don't think that a handsome young man playing the field would be at all controversial. Buttons are being pressed. Why?

Is the order of things being subverted?

Strategic aside: When I was in my early twenties, I was attracted to and dated older women. Silly aside within an aside: I know I have been hastised for being boastful, arrogant, and without humility. That may be accurate. I do my best, but arrogance is a fault. You might be arrogant too if you lived in a world where 95 percent of those you interacted with could not play all the games that you like to play. Guilty.

Here are some of my tentative theories.
1 - I'm a completely socially inept. Things that I say are said without regard to normal rules of relationship. I undermine other peoples sense of self esteem. I don't recoginize or value the importance of humility and building up the esteem of my human mates.
2 - We are built to recognize certain sexual roles. You are not supposed to fuck your sister. Older women are not supposed to be made pregnant. Older guys are not supposed to be in the loop. Anyone who deviates must be ousted.
1b. Jealousy. You are an old dude. I'm better than you, because I'm a young dude. You are doing what I wish I was doing. Bullshit! No way pal. Fuck you. Fuck you and go fuck yourself. Ha. You jerk. Ha ha ha.

As for the women being pissed off, I suppose that this is a huge piss off. I don't play by the rules. The rules are explicit, and women severely punish other women who don't play by the rules. Sex MUST be paid for. Only sluts have sex without demanding payment. A man who has sex without paying is also very, very bad.

TANAI KWAI says:

Greg,

You write:

"When I first posted on this thread I didn't really expect the conversation to go where it did."

Funny thing about conversations. They go in unexpected and occasionally unwelcome directions when you deal with folks outside of the "world where 95 percent of those you interacted with could not play all the games that you like to play."

"Well, I thought that I had addressed her comment by saying that do my best to mix being discrete with being honest."

Yes and no. I think the point is you can't really be at once refreshingly "up front" and pleasantly "discreet." Sure, you can decline to take other lovers' calls while in coitus with someone but that's different from being "up front." What you describe is not impossible, of course. Just sounds tough to replicate in light of conventional women's expectations.

"And yes, being non-monogomous is frought with all sorts of problems, and creates all sorts of difficulties."

Perhaps this is the reality I was trying to draw out a bit more, beyond the cavalier schtick to which you confess. You seemed to me to have been soft-pedaling that part of it. No more.

"We are built to recognize certain sexual roles... Older guys are not supposed to be in the loop. Anyone who deviates must be ousted."

I think certain posters were just poking fun at the very real possibility that you (like many, many other farangs) might be (a) overstating your true appeal to such women; (b) not recognizing that to the extent you do truly appeal to them, you would not have that appeal sans money; (c) the notion that pot bellies and baldness would be more attractive to a young Thai woman on equal footing with you than, say, Beckham's looks; and (d) [the corollary to (c)] that you could labor under the belief that you would absolutely do as well with Thai girls raised in America and who have the option of dating a younger, more handsome man of means.

The issue isn't that you are old and finished. [And for the record, you aren't much older than me and I seem to be better situated than ever to attract young women -- at least since I was a senior B.M.O.C. in college.] The idea of older men dating young women is hardly revolutionary or taboo. But most of those older men tend to be realistic about some of the more practical undergirdings of the attraction. There has been some doubt expressed as to whether you do.

This is not to say that some young women don't prefer older men. This is to say, however, that young women who must work for a living tend to seek security ("fatherly" and/or otherwise) from an older man; they don't seek fun and frivolity and devil-may-care pennilessness from older men (in general). That is the trade-off they deal with in exchange for dating young, attractive studs (in general).

Hope that sheds some light on the hostility, whether real or perceived.*

(...)

[*Oh yeah, and some women *do* resent you for what you do and wish you would stick to women they deem age-appropriate. Many older women obviously feel your emphasis of youth attenuates their sexual vitality and casts into question their relevance as sexual/life partners. They also correctly apprehend that, while they are more "worthwhile" in certain key respects than young, inexperienced ingenues with whom they compete for older men, they remain irretrievably jealous and embittered that they are no longer young. With not a little hipocrisy, they lash out at objectification of women while longing for the days somebody would look at them this way. To add insult to injury, aside from the statistical improbability of attracting a marriage partner beyond a certain age (another reason why the toll from your [and my] activities is a heavy one) these women deeply resent that your options as a man may even *increase* as you age. I feel terrible and wracked with guilt about this dynamic and I'm not even a woman. Seriously. Fucking tragic, really. I've seen it hurt every important woman in my life, and I empathize deeply with this. I am not being scornful, mocking or spiteful here, since I know *I* would be in precisely the same position were I an aging, lonely woman desirous of being in a happy relationship.]

Greg says:

Ya, ageing sucks. I was several times in love with older women. One as much as 19 years older. I had a very serious relationship with an incredibly beautiful soul who was 11 years older. The age difference became a problem that just ate away at me. I had hoped that it wouldn't matter and that I would be able to see past it, but the reality of the situation was that it did matter to me. I became obsessed with the age difference. It wasn't the only reason that our relationship failed, but it was a huge stress.

I used to ask myself every night to have a dream that would teach me what to do. I was hoping for some dream that would allow me to resolve the internal conflict. Instead every single night I dreamed of having sex with multiple beautiful young partners.

Well, I'm living that dream now. And I'm much happier than I was before.

Age is tragic. We are actually hard wired to be attracted to youth. Shallow or not - it is a feature of our genetic make up. I used to think that technology was near to finding a solution. I hope that it soon will be. It just isn't fair.

Yes, Tanai, of course women are also attracted to young attractive men, and it is money that tends to offset looks as a man ages. My own experience currently is going against the common stereotypes. I have no excuse for that. Being a falang in Thailand in itself seems to be attractive to some girls. Many greatly prefer to date a falang, and there are not enough to go around. It is like being a kid in a candy store. I did ok back in the west, and I did date younger women there as well, and even sometimes had multiple partners, but it is easier here.

I understand the basic rules of the game. Money for a man equals tits for a woman. But I think any reasonably charming falang man who wants to have several girlfriends in Thailand would find that it is not that difficult to do. You don't have to have a lot of money, and you don't have to be young and handsome. At least, that has been my experience, and I can't imagine that it would not be anyone elses who put in the effort to make it so. I'm not condoning that lifestyle, as obviously it is not ideal. But it is surprisingly easy to attain here. That has been my experience, for the 1.5 years I've been here.

Greg says:

Oh, and regarding being attractive to a western educated woman, the Pakistani girl who I was serious with is a stunningly beautiful genious of age 20. She was attracted to me, and was also deeply in love with me. I guess some people would prefer to think that can not be so and that I must be deluding myself. Maybe no one wants to know. She married the older guy, and I have more money than he does. Ya, such a setup is not as common as people marrying or dating within their own age group, but it is neither uncommon. Money and age are of course only two powerful parts of the puzzle of love.

Anonymous says:

I can't resist one last comment. In my experience being an older man can actually be a major part of the attraction. Some women really are attracted to older guys, and that isn't just a delusion. In the US one 26 year old woman I had a crush on told me that she would not consider dating a man younger 40. In my relationship to the Pakistani woman, the age difference was a very significant attractant to both of us. I was her Daddy. I know this is not completely common. My 19 year old girlfriend definitely wishes I was younger and would far prefer a younger boyfriend. She merely puts up with the age difference. But sometimes age can actually be an advantage. Women who like young men needn't despair, as it can and does work both ways. In my twenties I was most attracted to women age 36 and up, and dated mostly 40 something women. There are young men and women out there who simply prefer an older partner. Not common, but common enough.

Polonius says:

The above writes, ' I can't resist one last comment.'

Try harder. Not all interior monologues should be made exterior.

Further, perform a search by entering: brevity+soul+wit.

Greg says:

Ya. Well, I was engaged in conversation and I did my best to make a case. It is increasingly obvioius that no case can be made. What I am trying to say is too unpallatable.

Greg says:

By the way Tanai, there is a lot in your voice that I admire. I wish I had your patience, empathy, and broad respect for fellows.

TANAI KWAI says:

Greg,

Thanks for your thoughtful comments. Rest assured, even the people who call you an ass (in so many words) clearly recognize that you are intelligent and thoughtful.

It's just that if you betray a hint of smugness or arrogance without leavening it with a bit of irony or, at a minimum, brevity, you test the patience of the readership.

You write:

"every single night I dreamed of having sex with multiple beautiful young partners... Well, I'm living that dream now. And I'm much happier than I was before."

If this is true, and you don't fear the prospect of waking up one day having built a life that conforms to more conventional expectations, this sounds dreamy, in theory. But I am by no means certain that family, children and deep intimacy with one woman should be sacrificed on the altar of an unbridled desire to butterfly. (Yes, we're anthropologically hardwired to desire youth but societies tend to cohere because adults moderate their desires, either by choice, by necessity or through sheer social pressure).

I only hope this fucking-a-bunch-of-gorgeous-young-women-for-the-foreseeable-future model works for us both. It certainly has its benefits. Maybe I'm just a little less sanguine about this lifestyle than you. Then again, I've a powerfully strong super-ego (half-Catholic, half-Jewish).

Of course, some would call this garden-variety sex addiction and say that this need for multiple partners runs a person and not the other way around. You might want to look into this -- I certainly have.

(...)

Greg says:

Hi Tanai.

Sex addiction. Value of family and children. Unbridled desire to butterfly.

Those ideas have as basis notions that I don't share. I suppose I'm a hippy at heart. I don't really understand prudish notions. I'm a slut, and I respect sluts. I don't want kids, and I have a very difficult time understanding other peoples desire for children. I have absolutely no interest in having a family. My idea of an ideal intimate relationship is one where my significant other has a separate house and separate finances.

I'm addicted to air and food. And sex. And I have a physical body. I don't intend to transcend that.

Like anyone I appreciate that the greater the intimacy the greater potential for joy and pain. I've chosen to partake in simple and nearly base relationships that can never provide a deep intimacy, and I have found a lot of satisfaction. Not perferct, and it could be better, but certainly interesting.

This conversation has opened up a lot of questions for me. I understand that non-monogamy is contentious. I have been surprised to learn that an age difference can not be seen in any other light than as a compromise that must be paid for financially. I wonder about the root of that. Certainly there is some truth in there. But is it the crab basket mentality that keeps us from granting others kudos, or is it really that as outsiders we can more clearly see what is going on in a relationship between perfect strangers?

TANAI KWAI says:

Aside from boring the crap out of anyone still with us, I think we're talking past each other at this point.

I don't regard the idea of family and children as a "prudish" notion. And this despite the fact that I come from a long line of philanderers and whoremongers. My grandfather on my mother's side was the sole source of male genetic material for a village near Acapulco. My father inseminated half a dozen women across the world. His father before him may have done the same thing. If most men were afflicted with their free-spirited "hippie" attitude I think the world would be even more fucked, if that's possible. You might retort that you aren't planning on fathering any kids but that is not my central point.

There is a cost to such behavior. It's something to consider. And before you glibly admit to being "addicted to sex" (ha ha) may I recommend you leaf through "Don't Call it Love" by Patrick Carnes.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0553351389/104-0495161-3729550?v=glance

I don't presume to know you; I only suggest that your attitude in this regard strikes me as heavy words lightly thrown.

As for your issue about age differences I think you may be importing a bit more into this than your would-be critics. There is just a healthy suspicion here about geezers who go over to Thailand and suddenly feel and act like sexy rock stars. That's all. If you are Pierce Brosnan or Harrison Ford no one begrudges you your illusions. Otherwise, your comments about your appeal (irrespective of your wallet size) are going to be subject to skepticism. Again, most farang guys who go to Thailand benefit from a perceived cachet from being foreign that is bound up in money or something else that would not render them so special in their home countries. It CAN be rather pathetic. You, on the other hand, describe this surpassingly palatable, even-footed and non-exploitative situation where your lovers wax rhapsodic about your gray pubic hair (or whatever) and have no interest in your money. I, for one, have no trouble believing those women exist. No doubt at all, in fact. Some women do fetishize older men. It happens. Not a big deal. (And I certainly don't think it merits "kudos" exactly, though I agree it does inspire jealousy.) The doubt creeps in when you introduce the Thailand angle...

Again -- the stereotype is that attraction between a farang and a TG is rooted in any number of more practical considerations and exigencies. Otherwise, average men would not find themselves swarming on Thailand at every opportunity. They could stay home in England or the U.S. and just wait for a bevy of beautiful coeds from the local University to knock at their door.

You are right about one thing -- you will not convince people that you are the exception that disproves the rule. But so what.

(anyway)

TANAI KWAI says:

Greg, I can't resist one more comment (...).

I would defend to the death our right to whore indiscriminately and plan to do so myself as soon as I finish typing. You are plenty sharp enough to be able to hold two seemingly contradictory ideas in your head at once so I just felt it important to affirm that sentiment despite my other comments.

(winky)

Glenn says:

Heavy words lightly thrown. Perhaps. I used to live the life of a celibate monk, meditating for between 5 and 10 hours per day, either in solitude retreat or in a Buddhist monastery. I've also been in serious monogamous relationships. I suppose that would make me familiar with the gamut of possible attitudes towards sex. I don't see that non-monogamous casual sex is a problem, nor do I see that admitting and satisfying the need for sex is an addiction. I see it as a basic need, that when fulfilled leads to an enhanced quality of life.

Personally I don't like to whore indiscrimately. I have a baseline of intimacy that I don't like to go below. I know many people's baseline is much higher than mine. For me paying for sex with a prostitute would not allow for my minimum preferred level of intimacy.

I don't have anything to add regarding how attractive an older man can and in what ways an older man can be attractive. I think we both can see that stereotypes have a lot of truth to them, as well as a lot of powerful illusion.

TANAI KWAI says:

Glenn:

"I don't see that non-monogamous casual sex is a problem, nor do I see that admitting and satisfying the need for sex is an addiction."

That doesn't do justice to my position, of course, so I assume you weren't summarizing it.

"Personally I don't like to whore indiscri