The risks of complaining in Thailand

Dana says:

The flaw in this social commentary exceeds my ability to keep counsel. Taking your business elsewhere in Thailand does not work because the service is just as bad at the next place. Thailand is a country as an international courtesy only. Thailand really is an amusement park run by slant eyed and almond eyed and round eyed mafia. As long as you understand that you have left the world of civility and social evolution behind and are swimming in a sewer of criminality and stupidity you can have a good time. It's called a vacation.

kwilly says:

what !?

as opposed to those bastions of moral authority - America, Australia & England et al.

Am Thai says:

Mr. Dana, how dare you calling my country an amusement park? If this amusement park - you are the visiting clown or grown-up with 3 year old kids brain.

tonychang says:

I've frequently heard it refered to as "Toyland" for some of the above reasons.

NJW says:

Dana and Tony Chang, the two of you should get out of the go-go bars occassionaly. If your only experience of Thailand is the type of entertainment venue run by the mafia types described by Dana, it is no wonder that your view of the place is so ill-informed.

On the subject of complaining, I find starting with "I may be wrong, but I think there may have been a mistake.........." or similar is a good face saving way to start.

Going in with all guns blazing, like some idiot Yank, will never work.

TANAI KWAI says:

"Going in with all guns blazing, like some idiot Yank, will never work."

Worked well enough to keep you from growing up German. And you'd best get on your knees and kiss some idiot yank's (or brave Brit's) feet every day you are able to enjoy civilization as you know it. Unless, of course, you'd like to see all the go-go bars closed and chastity belts all around.

At least we're useful idiots.

(winky)

NJW says:

I fail to see how your post is relevent, but........

Late for the first war, late for the second, so in Vietnam go in with all guns blazing, and look what happened there!

TANAI KWAI says:

You fail to see how my post is relevant? Didn't you mean to start your post with:

"I may be wrong, but I think there may have been a mistake.........."

Way to go, Jackass.

(winky)

NJW says:

No..............

Because I wasn't dealing with a polite Thai, but an arrogant Yank.

tonychang says:

went to some go-go bars once,
but they didnt sell Chang.

TANAI KWAI says:

NJW:

"Because I wasn't dealing with a polite Thai, but an arrogant Yank."

That's it? Pretty sad. You obviously don't like Americans. You are not alone in that opinion. But don't act surprised if someone responds to your boneheaded remarks.

Some people are so intoxicated by the idea of "winning" that they lose interest in seeing the merits in the positions of their contrapuntists. For example, yes, Vietnam was a debacle.

See how easy that is?

(...)

Dana says:

I'll stop thinking of the Thais as evolutionary retards and of Thailand as an amusement park as soon as the monks stop going to peoples homes to bless the new washing machine and take money for it and call it philosophy. Please. Grab the reigns. Every beating heart has the right to beat. Every beating heart is not equal. As for me being a Yank. Well, you got something right. And so did Finland--the only country to pay us back after WWII. We'll gladly accept constructive criticism from countries that have satisfied their debts to us. Pay the bill or shut up.

perry says:

Don't be an ass dana. "A country by international courtesy only?" thats just stupid. And I don't think ALL americans are obnoxious, Unless being born here automatically causes that condition. I've seen some europeans behaving badly too. Thai people are pretty happy with their country from what I've seen.

Me Thai says:

Mr. Dana, I think if you are 4ft tall, fat, bald, 60 years old and living on a measly pension, there's no option but to hang around amusement parks and watch little girls on swings.

Unfortunately for you, in the US that is a high-risk hobby, so the likes of you come to Thailand (or other friendly Asian countries) and play at being Dr. Livingstone.

Not even venturing out of Nana, Cowboy and Patpong, you think that you have a finger on the pulse of the whole country.

For people like you 2 nights in Pattaya with your flip-flops, Red Bull t-shirt (exposed arm-pit fuzz), sweat pants and an art-leather money belt, is the equivalent of mingling with natives in the countryside.

The people that interact with your type are only those from night-life related businesses. Even then, only because they earn money from that association and because they do not have a better choice in life.

A common Thai even from the poorest family, who has no connection to the night-life / psuedo-tourism business, wouldn't spit and throw it your way. If they meet you in the street they would rather give you a wide berth.

That's how obnoxious you are to us, the common Thai populace. A polite face does not necessarily mean you are excused for you grossly repulsive personality and equally degenerate attitude, which really does not escape our notice, much as we may pretend to ignore it out of courtesy to visitors.

Be thankful that your likes can still visit Thailand, and be gracious that our dislikes of your person are not manifested in voilent shows of outward indignation. After all, wouldn't that then be a typical reaction from you to foreigners behaving as you and spouting vile words about your country in your homeland.

So, stick to sending your submissions to websites that are a release for your pent-up frustations. Being here with a few measly dollars to spend does not entitle you to respect and acceptance in our society. Like everywhere else, even in our country these are to be earned by worthy deeds.

NJW says:

ME THAI,

Well said.

TANAI KWAI,

Not like Americans? Well, me and about 90% of the worlds population, and DANA's post immediatly below yours illustrates the exact reason.

I'm sure that were I to meet a real American that I would like them. But the chances of me doing that are vitually non-existant, as your lot killed most of them and imprisoned the survivors on reservations!

David says:

NJW - Why are you applauding Dana's humiliation? You and he are natural soul-mates - David.

Dr Nick Riviera says:

NJW there's a possibility there's a bit of hypocrisy for any native English speaker to slam a modern day American citizen for the country's treatment of Native American's over the last few centuries. What blameless nation do you come from?

NJW says:

Dr Nick,

Do you mean me personaly, or my ancestors?

Black Americans fall into the catagory of "Native English Speakers." Do you include them in your accusation of hypocrisy?

TANAI KWAI says:

NJW,

I have never felt so uninspired as I do now to respond to anyone -- and I include the faux soccer hooligans. But here goes.

"Not like Americans? Well, me and about 90% of the worlds population..."

I would more accurately describe the world's relationship with America as "love-hate." Like every country, we have black marks on our honor. But it is the dream of many people across the world to live in America. (I am delighted, however, that you are not one of them. And I hope you stay out of Thailand, for that matter, as you make it your business to militate against all nightlife or sexual contact or fun.)

"and DANA's post immediatly below yours illustrates the exact reason."

Dana is American. All Americans are American. Ergo, Dana = all Americans. Your logic is impeccable.

"I'm sure that were I to meet a real American that I would like them. But the chances of me doing that are vitually non-existant, as your lot killed most of them and imprisoned the survivors on reservations!"

Dr. Riviera's point is on the mark. It is unfortunate that we have zero examples of countries that have not committed terrible acts of brutality and ignorance. Native American nations, of which you know little (I make this assumption since you know little about anything -- just enough to form your poorly developed opinions) behaved with hideous cruelty toward one another long before the arrival of anyone from beyond the American continents. By the way, I am of Native American (Indian) ancestry. My forbears, who once numbered in the millions, were in the habit of slaughtering men, women and children, cutting out the hearts of their enemies and consuming human flesh. They shared this practice with many other Indian tribes across North and South America.

So you see, nobody's perfect. (Perhaps not even you, or wherever it is you are so proud to fail from that you won't even disclose the name of the place.)

"Black Americans fall into the catagory of "Native English Speakers." Do you include them in your accusation of hypocrisy?"

It is my sincere belief that you have been educated well beyond your intelligence. This is one of the most idiotic responses I have ever seen posted by anyone in respect of anything.

(ugh)

jerry says:

Hey, jackasses. Do you think you are going to solve anything by bickering back and fourth for the next fifteen years on some stupid ass message board. Isn't it just like "men" to have a pissing contest over who's country is the best. In my opinion I would rather be a thai than am american any day! At least thai's can travel the world without worrying about some muslim freedom fighter chopping their heads off with a plastic butter knife. I would rather be a resident of a country that is not guilty of invading other peoples land and killing the natives who live there. As in vietnam, how many people do you have to massacre before you realize they don't want "american democracy?" Have you ever asked yourself that question? If the people are resisting it must be for a good reason, right not because they think it's cool to run in front of an abrams tank with a rocket launcher only to be ran over by some angry american? How many countries has America and Britain gone into in the past hundred years and utterly plundered and destroyed their people and resources. Now we are doing it under the guise of "liberation" but fancy words will not take away from the terror America imposes upon other nations.

Please get a life, realize that thai people only put up with your shit because you bring American money to their country. If they found gold or oil in thailand today you farangs would be kicked the fuck out tomorrow. Just be thankful that there are even "the lowest of women" in thailand who will come in contact with your old wrinkly asses without using a ten foot poll. Now I mean that as in there is a small percentage of women who work in the sex industry. I did say, "small percentage" don't get the entire country confused with ten go-go bars in nana plaza. Then again I cant blame you there, Dana most Americans tend to stereotype every culture they come in contact with. Just like you do in iraq, "those people fighting us in Fallujah must be foreign fighters and terrorists" the regular people in iraq would not fight the liberators. Condescending jackass, you think everyone falls for your political propaganda and genocide.

Ok, didn't mean to make this political but I am just emulating the sentiments of my fellow statesmen. Of which are the "minority" and quite possibly disgrentled republicans who think america is the only country that exists in this world. It is hovever time to move on and it is a shame that fuckers like Dana ruin the reputation of "respectable" americans by running ther drunken mouths in Thailand. Please remember that some americans do care about other countries and ways of life. So, Tania make sure he's a republican before you drag him out into the street and take a lead pipe to his face. It's called attitude adjustment Dana and no one is above the experience. You better thank god every time you make it back to your hotel room at night that the thai's didn't let out a little bit of social frustration on your face when you were mouthing off to them about over priced beer.

I will end with this note my friends and enemies whichever group you fall into after you read this post. I am going to come to Thailand some day and experience the great culture. I will be on my best behavior as I would expect any foreigners to do when they are visiting my country. Make sure to introduce me to a nice farm girl so I can get married and come live in the village with her. I will simply disappear into the community and live my life in peace and watch from afar when the first nuke hits the United States. lol, it's going to happen within the next four years if Bush gets re-elected might as well use Thailand as the viewing area.

TANAI KWAI says:

Hey, jackasses.

(...)

jerry says:

Damn someone replied. I wasn't insinuating that you all were jackasses. Just swap address and get to the getting my friends. If you want to have a good roustabout and have a go at one anothers juggular vains. lol, or you guys can make peace and mend the relations between the thai populace and the american beech dweler. Take care Tanai and hope you don't direct any violence twards me if we meet some day. I am a pacifist in most situations as well, I only shed blood for faminy members. Not random jackasses who get in my face and spread their drunken bullshit. God bless and remember Thailand is a decent place and we need to be mindful of the people who live there.

Porkswordsman says:

Visitors to Thailand should know a little about the Thailand's history. While the neighbourng South East Asian countries....Malaya (now Malaysia), Singapore, India were colonies of the British; Indochina (Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia) colonies of and exploited by the French; China raped and pillaged by a variety of European powers, Indonesia by the Dutch, and the Phillipines by the Spanish and the America.....which country by its unrivalled diplomatic skills remained unconquered and independent throughout modern history ? You may have read about the Hollywood movie farces "The King and I" (numbers 1 & 2), having being been banned in Thailand. Did you giggle and squeal at what a horrible expression of 'censorship' this represented ? Ever ask WHY the Thais take this viewpoint...from their own cultural and national point of view ? It's because they are justly PROUD of their history and even now (in the nicest possible way) they are sending George W Bush and Tony Blair and Li Peng packing when they entreat the Thais into international intrigues that they instinctively know are not in their interests. Please look at this country from the historic perspective, not just the glossy colour pics of hotel bedrooms and day tours sites and sex tourism opportunities.

mr peter says:

Why don't the Japs ever get the recognition of ending the 'never colonised' boast? Is it because they were not there for enough years? Of course if not for being liberated by the Allied forces in WW2 the Japs would still be there now most probably. What is taught in thai schools about this, that the thais cleverly expelled the Japs with diplomacy?-peter

mr peter says:

Come to think of it the thais are very quiet when it comes to WW2. I recently visited Copenhagen and noticed they have a museum about the occupation and on a tour german HQ was pointed out along with several other facts and events of the time.
In all the years I have been going to LOS I cannot recall anyone ever mentioning the war at all. It's almost as if it's been forgotten about, apart from the Burma railway stuff of course. Next time I am over I will go into Asia books and ask where the history books are which cover the occupation.-peter

TANAI KWAI says:

Favorite topics for exhaustive personal research about World War II -- we've all got 'em...

Mine happens to be the surreal axis between the Germans and the Japanese. Yes, it is likely that the Germans would have eventually exterminated the Japanese had the Axis powers prevailed. But my question has always been how these countries could fashion even a pretense of amity until that presumed showdown?

Both "races" deemed themselves to be the ubermenschen... one imagines they thought of themselves as Max Schnelling and Genki Sudo, respectively. While each country produces fine physical specimens this alliance hardly computes in racial terms... or so it would seem.

As it happens, this issue particularly ate at the diseased mind of one Heinrich Himmler, who authorized the expenditure of millions upon millions of Deutschemarks attempting to prove his convenient theory that the Japanese were a "lost" Aryan tribe. He funded expeditions to Tibet in search of Shangri-La, seeking missing links to German Aryans and favored a theory that the angular, sharp features of so-called Asian "Caucasians" suggested Aryanness.

While Himmler was ostensibly also seeking the origins of the Aryan people this was also an effort to reconcile and explain the conspicuous racial differences at hand to a confused German populace. I would love to hear how the Japanese processed these issues if anybody knows.

Mr. Peter, you have nudged me in the direction of a new area of inquiry; namely, what, exactly, the Japanese were doing in Thailand during World War II. I actually took a pass at this topic a couple of years back and tentatively concluded that (a) the Japanese were basically in control of large tranches of Thailand (and threw their weight around quite a bit) but they were not so unwise as to rankle the Thais by, for example, seeking to displace the monarchy and claiming the country as a conquest; and (b) that the Thai government did undertake some very fancy diplomacy to keep this arrangement intact until the close of hostilities.

You are correct that this is not a popular topic in LOS. But I think the "never conquered" claim remains intact because the Thais never actually fought the Japanese -- the Japanese were merely unwelcome "guests" in an officially neutral country. So based on my limited knowledge, this was no Vichy situation. More like Switzerland, which you wouldn't exactly say was "conquered" by the Germans during that period.

(...)

TANAI KWAI says:

On the other hand, the French didn't put up much of a fight either. But I doubt there was a Thai "resistance" either, or any kind of call to arms, given the government's official position.

(...)

stoney says:

you guys must lead very, very boring lifes to spend all day bickering about shit like this.
Have a beer, cool down, get laid.......

Dana says:

"Never Conquered"--what Thai comic books have you been reading. The Burmese turned the Three Pagoda Pass into an autobahn and invaded at will. Any Burmese punk on an elephant with a spear could conquer a village.

The Japs did what ever they wanted because the Thais capitulated--you can call it diplomacy if you want to--I call it handing over your daughters.

Many other Asian sub-groups entered at will. And once again the daughters were handed over. You can call it friendly relations if you and Cummings want to--I call it a complete disinterest in defending family and territory. This reads like comic book nice guys--but the reality is that they are worthless allies--unreliable, unprincipled, no stamina. Their 'religion' is one of fatalism and of giving up. The Thais could have been invaded at will and occupied at will by any other people at any time. The real reason their history does not read repetitively this way is because Thailand doesn't have anything of value. If suddenly tomorrow Thailand was gifted with oil and gas and chromium and tin and uranium and steel making and coal and gold--they wouldn't throw the farangs out--they would be invaded by the farangs. This is the way of history. Your life is your own until you have something someone else wants. The Thais postcard country and lame philosophies and childish culture and corrupt religion exists because nobody cares enough to make it otherwise.

s- says:

for someone with a western vision i say your right ...

too bad i don't share this western vision (anymore)

in the context of the history and so called surrender of Siam, you talk about 'religion'... thats funny... i quote:

" Their 'religion' is one of fatalism and of giving up. The Thais could have been invaded at will and occupied at will by any other people at any time. The real reason their history does not read repetitively this way is because Thailand doesn't have anything of value."

I can only ask you two thing's, it might take some time until you can relate those questions with the text above, but once u can relate, you will understand my point, i hope so. many western failed ; How is your karma doing? Do you believe in reincarnation?

The Thai people do....

(sorry for my bad english, i am just a poor dutch boy, who didn't like the usa/uk movies as much as his buddies did...)

Taz says:

May I comment?

I'm amazed that a discussion about the way complaints are dealt with in thai culture has become an international slanging match invoking WW2 and Vietnam no less.

I have been travelling around Thailand for a month and during that time I have been extremely upset at the way that politely stated complaints I have made in restaurants have been dealt with. I would like to stress that I am notrious amongst my friends back home in the UK for being a non-complainer - I have eaten, or pretended to eat, the most unbelievable sludge at times rather than send food back.

I normally apply the same rules here - I have revieved some very bad food in Thailand, but rather than complain I even went so far as to discreetly dispose of an inedible steak sandwich in a plastic bag under the table rather than offend the owner of a cafe by not eating it!

However, on the odd occasion when i have politely and calmly complained - usually because I was treating myself to eating in a pricier than usual restaurant and am reluctant to pay for something completely inedible when I'm on a budget, i have been shocked at the reaction. Today, I watched as a German man in a hotel cafe was shouted at and humilated by the manager because he had camly told the waitress that he had been given the wrong type of sandwich. If "face" is so important to Thais, then why were they so keen to embarass the guy over a couple of slices of bread?

However, I DID find out something useful from the indicent which may help all you folks who have had similar experiences. After chatting to the barman about what had happened, he explained that the waitress would now have to pay for the sandwich out of her own wages. I got the impression that this is common practive in thailand - am I right? I realised that this is why serving staff may be very reluctant to acknolwedge wrong orders - with language barriers mistakes can often happen and if they serving staff owned up to it every time they would lose a sizebale chunk fo their wages.

So this might go some way to explaining the extremely rude reactions to mild complaints.

And keep the peace folks - this aint' a WW3!

S- says:

May i Quote?

"Today, I watched as a German man in a hotel cafe was shouted at and humilated by the manager because he had camly told the waitress that he had been given the wrong type of sandwich. If "face" is so important to Thais, then why were they so keen to embarass the guy over a couple of slices of bread? "

this reminds me of something we say in our country, its called 'what was before? chicken or the egg'

interesting... heavy reaction on complain and losing the thai smile is a big thing in Thailand, and many western will find problems/ not understanding with this.

i believe there are 2 sort of vision to see this situation.

A, your vision; the manager over-reacts on his complain.

B, i prefer following this vision; the dear german farang shouldnt be complaining about this mis-understanding....it's just a sandwich .. and what the hack, mistake's bring up new situations (sometimes even learnfull)

If you want to think of an argument to scrap vision B ... i can only say .. Dont forget in who's country ur @ !

~
Greetings from Amsterdam

Greg says:

In the west we have the ethos that the customer is always right. If not right, at the least he should be listened to and respected. That seems a reasonable ethos.

In Thailand the ethos is that the establishment owner is always right.

That does not seem a reasonable ethos. Nor does "whoever's country you are in is always right".

Anyone can act poorly - even a Thai, and yes, we CAN make judgments about poor behaviour if we did not grow up here.

Taz says:

Dear S

I take your point, but -

A) The german guy was a vegetarian who had mistakenly been given a meat sandwich - you really think he should eat and pay for that? Particularly as the cafe wasn't the cheapest place in the world.

B) He was completely polite and just asked that it be changed to what he ordered.

C) In the last section of my post, I explained that I COULD see things from the point of view of the waitress (she didn't want her wages to be docked, so she lied).

I still think the manager was inexcusably rude and really embarrassed the guy.

Taz

Isabel II says:

I just want to add a couple of quick comments on the whole WW II debate and colonization.

Thailand avoided outright European colonization because they conceded territory to the French that Siam had previously subsumed from Laos and Cambodia. Say what you will about the negative aspects of colonization (such as enforced famine in the Japanese and French case in Viet Nam), but if it weren't for the European penchant of clearly demarcating and enforcing borders, Cambodia and Laos would most likely be located in Thailand and Viet Nam right now.

Also, the whole issue of Thailand avoiding European colonization doesn't really account for the fact that they were colonized by other Asians. And no, I'm not referring to the Japanese occupation, because they were eventually sent packing by the Allies. But the Chinese never left.

The Chinese arrived via the rivers as merchants and moneylenders, collected tax and corvee for the monarchy, and made quite a nice profit for themselves. It wasn't long before they transformed their capital into transporting the rice from the farms to central Thailand, building the granuaries to store the rice, to eventually buying up the land to grow the rice, and everything else connected to commerce. The advent of landless peasants really started with the arrival of the Chinese.

Why this is not considered colonization is beyond me.

Dana says:

Thank-you Isabel.

S- says:

TAZ & GREG,

i really understand what you guys are saying. in fact, a few years ago, i would say exactly the same thing ... till i changed my vision & perspective totally from what i have been learned (still strugling with that, its not easy)

The arguments you bring up are based on respect to other people, i am fully aware of that, and before i want to give my arguments, i want to say that to me this is not about wrong or right... there is simply no 'wrong or right'.

Maybe that is exactly what this discussion makes it so difficult.

I really want to mark that this is based on western ideology, and the way how you treat respect, to yourself and to others.

No offence, but it seems that you simply just can't understand the perspective and vision of this manager, born and raised in Thailand. I can speak for this fella, and i havent seen the situation ... so its kinda hard for me to talk about this specific situation, but i recognize this kind of discussion which i have with a lot of western & thai people.

This reaction has to do with the way the people been raised, culture, and budhisme .... we can talk hours and hours about that, but that's just the way it is... i would say 'take it or leave it'

We all visit this website, so there must be something beautiful in Thailand that attracts us, but, like everything in life.... there is a - and +

Take this for granted... This is what the Thai people do their whole life. If you don't want to accept this and hold tight onto your western way of handling and judging.... fine, but the negative experience like this is yours

Receiving meat on your toast while being a vegetarian sux... yes, but the german could also leave the toast ... or buy simply another one. Like that will kill his wallet ... right...

Greg says:

Just because this is no ultimate right or wrong independent of context and culture does not mean that different cultural attitudes are not more or less compassionate and respectful, and thus better or worse.

I call your king of attitude mulitculturalist/nihilist. If you are curious about what others have said about this you can do a google search for the term "mean green meme"

Think about the culture of 12 year old boys, the culture of 18 boys, and the culture of 24 year old college senior boys. Each has their own relatively true perspectives and ways of doing things. Are some groups in a better position to judge? The same holds true for some cultural differences. Some things here are just plain underdeveloped and backwards. Some things here are not, and some are even better. Don't get all haughty and nihilistic and say that I don't have the mental capacity to step out of my own paradigm, as it is you who don't have the mental capacity to step out of your paradigm that all realities are merely relative. I already can hold the multicult worldview quite capably in my skull. You need to see a wider picture and learn how to compare cultures and see various groups of perspectives at the same time, and not merely jump between paradigms one at a time.

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22mean+green+meme%22&sourceid=opera&num=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

S- says:

shame your getting offensive on me... tho, i will consider that as your weakness. i respect you for the thing(s) you say, and you have every right to say that.

i wont argue or say whats "wrong" or "wright" about what you arer saying, not my thing. i only want to give my opinion about this post, if you want to continue communicating on this level, or increasing your offensive way of pointing out your view, im done, maybe you don't care, maybe you do...

" Just because this is no ultimate right or wrong independent of context and culture does not mean that different cultural attitudes are not more or less compassionate and respectful, and thus better or worse. "

First of all GREG, I dont think in terms of 'better or worse', especially not talking about culture's. simply because there is no better. what make's "this" better then "that" ? I would call it 'different'. The way you would respond on the german claim is better then the thai manager did? What a stupid question. Oh well, he doesn't even care. Though im interessted... what would GREG do if he was born and raised, and lived in the same way as that guy did/was....

"I call your king of attitude mulitculturalist/nihilist. If you are curious about what others have said about this you can do a google search for the term "mean green meme"

I dont care about what others think of me or "mean green meme", although i will check up that word, im always open for new information and new things... the language will be difficult, im not quit good with english language yet (as you may have noticed, dont count me on that one please)

"Think about the culture of 12 year old boys, the culture of 18 boys, and the culture of 24 year old college senior boys. Each has their own relatively true perspectives and ways of doing things. Are some groups in a better position to judge? The same holds true for some cultural differences. "

mmm age, i wonder... if that has anything to do with understanding/respecting different ways in/of culture. when i was young (9 years old) we lived in Asia for a while, my fother worked there... and i remember my mother (and a lot of other 'adults') complaining or being suprised a lot of times the time we were living there. we talked a lot about that, and sure i was suprised too sometimes, but i just approached these situations on a whole other level... i tried to understand WHY this occured, and instead of fighting or judging these kinda experiences i tried to adjust to this. hell yeah, i felt very bad sometimes the way i was treated about some things i handled on my western ideology.... but as the way i handled this (read above) it just gave me more respect and a bigger view of the whole world, and sometimes you simple feel more compassion with some culture then the other... Feelings! that connects with the next quote,

"Some things here are just plain underdeveloped and backwards. Some things here are not, and some are even better. Don't get all haughty and nihilistic and say that I don't have the mental capacity to step out of my own paradigm, as it is you who don't have the mental capacity to step out of your paradigm that all realities are merely relative. "

All ratio in my hear, and ratio is all based on judegements... Who are you to say that the culture and people in Thailand are just plain underdeveloped and backwards?? Comparing again? I feel sorry with people who need to compare all the time. comparing is an easy way to feel safe so your judgement always have some kinda basis to hold on. sure comparing can be easy and handy sometimes. but don't ever critisise someone's ideology better or worse with yours. I treat you on a beer in the future for that one.... who knows

"I already can hold the multicult worldview quite capably in my skull. " (what about your heart?)

Hey, if you say so... sure! im not the one who will "deny" or saying this is bullshit... who am i for that? why saying this anyway? does it add any extra worth to the point your trying to make? I say the people who shout hard words, are the one's with the less knowledge about that. Id rather hear your experience's and the arguments your judgements and shouts are based on.

""You need to see a wider picture and learn how to compare cultures and see various groups of perspectives at the same time "

haha ... Im trying man, im trying! It's not easy for a human raised in the west, but if i compare(!!!!) myself with most other western (age 1 to 100) people, i do quit well... actually im feeling slightly lonely with my perspective about the western world and its arrogance to always judge the bad bad eastern.....

" and not merely jump between paradigms one at a time. " I wonder who you are talking too... Anyway, i try to see objects as an individual, wether its a culture or a car ... sure u need comparing material, but like i said before... i never try to lose eye for the fact the one is better then the other .... but lessons comes with time & experience, not based on age .... Time & Experience....

S- says:

" I never try to lose eye for the fact the one is better then the other .... but lessons comes with time & experience, not based on age .... Time & Experience...."

I never try to lose eye for the fact the one is never better then the other .... but lessons comes with time & experience, not based on age .... Time & Experience....

mmm, if i re-read my post, its full of wrong sentences, i accept some mis-understanding on this. Sorry for my bad english, the easy bla bla is ok for me, but when it comes down to this kinda discussions.... aaaii i assume you won't pick me on the bad grammatica, but what it contains.

by the way, i was wondering... You live in Thailand? what part? I live in Holland, and heading soon to Thailand.

Greg says:

Hi S. I'm not sure if there is much point in continuing this discussion, as you already know that understanding and empathy is important and that no value has ultimate meaning. That is enough for you.

I have something else to inject into the conversation, but it is meaningless to you.

Good luck and good wishes.

Greg says:

http://www.salon.com/books/int/2002/03/25/asians/print.html

S- says:

mmm, kinda disappointing reaction. but ok, no problem. ending this situation is probably the wisest thing to do. you gave me a lot of new litterature to read though, interesting. But this all would not happened if the Thai manager didn't react the way he did. he made a big movement, combined with your influences? Do i sound vague? maybe a SNAG? (funny word tho, seen a lot on this site)

anyway,

i wish i could give you some titles ive read, but they are dutch though, but i think ive found some same sorta titels, otherwise, try to find a variant of those..... IF you are interested....

- ttp://www.enotalone.com/books/1567184855.html

- http://www.buy.com/retail/books/product.asp?sku=36485244&loc=106&sp=1

- http://www.buy.com/retail/books/product.asp?sku=36414106&loc=106&sp=1

you might think this does not have anything do with the above discussion, i dont know. to me, it definetaley does. maybe it will change your perspective, and especially your vision why people make certain movements in this crazy world.

and O, GREG, no anwser to my question about you living in Thailand? pitty...

Greg says:

I first came here to persue some interests in meditation. I stayed for economic and sexual reasons. I probably will continue to stay for economic and partly social reasons.

What did you mean by:"But this all would not happened if the Thai manager didn't react the way he did. he made a big movement, combined with your influences?"

Greg says:

I understand S that you disagree with the fundamental insights of developmental psychology. I can not understand why, and I admit to assuming that you are either unfamiliar with them or occlude their findings based on emotional needs. If I'm wrong and you are familiar with the material and care to discuss notions of personal and cultural development, I'd be happy to continue the discussion. As it is, your posts paint you as opposed and perhaps even ignorant of the idea of personal development. Ken Wilber's A Brief History of Everything is widely available, quite popular, and a very entertaining read.

Greg says:

I took a look at the titles you pointed to.

Journey of Souls: Case Studies of Life Between Lives
by Michael Newton

Advice on Dying: And Living a Better Life by the Dalai Lama

The Wisdom of Forgiveness: Intimate Conversations and Journeys by the Dalai Lama

You may be surprised to know of my background in Bhuddist studies. I have studied directly with several prominant western and eastern teachers, and have spent years living in a Bhuddist monastery and many months in solitary meditation retreat. Bhuddism explicitly recognises levels of development, as do all the perenial traditions.

Cog says:

"I still think the manager was inexcusably rude and really embarrassed the guy."

No excuse for poor behavior...but it sounds to me the manager has had it with falangs - the falang sense of entitlement (i.e. I'll teach these natives a thing or two about Western sensibilities). Imagine having to deal with demanding Aryan Teutons day after day - the stench of self-righteous arrogance exuding from every single falang pore.

If Thais react explosively...it's a signal that the cultural mechanism controlling pent-up emotions has failed. Very unhealthy, but very characteristic of Thais.

Greg says:

Cog, you suggest that such a situation would not be provoked by a Thai also politely pointing out the error. Am I correct?

Isabel II says:

S-, with all due respect, you sound like a very thoughtful and conscientous person, but until you have actually lived in another culture so unlike your own, i.e. the East, everything you say is based mostly on theory and you really are simply shifting in and out of one paradigm at a time as Greg says.

It's not my intention to take sides here, but you really need to be confronted with difference on a daily basis before you can really understand your own differences. And I know you mentioned living in Asia as a child for awhile, but that is completely different than as an adult.

To say that we are all the same, or can all suspend judgements of all sorts to achieve some sense of greater harmony or justice is simply dishonest in my view. It may not be maliciously dishonest, because I believe you have the best intentions in mind, but it is somewhat condescending. It is like gritting your teeth on the inside while flashing a benevolent, accepting smile. Would you do this in your country, or to people that you respect and care about? Of course you wouldn't, because it would not be true. That is the difference between visiting a place and living there.

This doesn't mean that you don't observe local norms and mores, or disregard behaviour that is irrelevant to your customs but very important to the host culture. Of course you show respect. But being a foreigner in a country does not and should not dictate that suddenly you are supposed to become a mute, blank slate, with no idea of ethics or morality.

The terms 'ethics' and 'morality' are obviously loaded terms, because their meanings and practices vary from individual to individual. But I think to say that we cannot measure certain value systems cross-culturally because we are all from unique cultures is a sort of bland, guilt-laden, hypocrisy. It does not mean that we have to enforce our cultures and values on others, but according to your arguments, we can all then say, "oh well, the Sudan funds janjaweed to rape and mutilate black muslims because it is acceptable according to their religous customs and history ..."

Of course we judge and measure values across cultures, we always have and always will. We also measure and judge our own values in the process and this has benefited many people in the last century.

I'm from a minority population in the states, and whenever someone starts telling me that they see us as all the same and they are colourblind (or in your case, cross-cultural valuation blind), I usually want to run because I know that person is talking out of a place of dishonesty or guilt (or politcally correct dogma), and that doesn't really change anyones outlook or advance the human race as far as I can tell looking back in history. And for the record, I'm not even a neo-con, I'm a leftist independent.

BTW: I feel 'ya Dana. I agree with a lot of your sentiment, but maybe a bit more apologetic about America in general than you are.

Isabel II says:

I realize that I do not address your point of 'better' or 'worse', or 'inferior' or 'superior'. I agree this is much more complicated and beset with all kinds of ethical and ethnocentric blindspots.

I would like to say that we are all equal. I am a minority, inner-city woman and have been saying that my whole life. But we are not all equal. The conscientous approach is to understand fully why that is so, rather than rest on supermacist explanations that merely support one's ideal of superiority. I think if you can do that honestly then you arrive at a closer approximation of understanding. I think that is the challenge. Honest and factual apprasial.

Cog says:

Posted by Greg | July 28, 2004 10:26 PM
"Cog, you suggest that such a situation would not be provoked by a Thai also politely pointing out the error. Am I correct?"

Are you employing Socratic irony or just gently prodding me into an entrapment? ;-)

Contrary to your view, I am not suggesting anything, nor am I attempting to rationalize what is perceived, at least superficially, to be an exhibition of rude behavior by the cafe' manager.

I was offering a possible hypothetical explanation as to why the manager may have reacted the way he did. Falang anecdotes often convienently overlook the cultural mechanisms in place. Since we don't have the complete picture, offering a sweeping indictment of the Thai culture based on the witness of an impersonal cyber-identity (i.e. Taz) reveals more of one's glaring prejudices that the accuracy of the conclusions.

Points to consider:
- Taz did not mention that the German is a vegetarian in the original post. Hmmmm....must not have been relevant PERSONAL information at the time.
- I wanna be sure - is the German a vegan or a vegetarian?
- How do you say vegan in Thai?
- How do you say vegetarian in Thai?
- Does the cafe offer a vegan/vegetarian menu? If so, what fucking menu did the German order from?

I'll start of with these questions...
..be back after a nap.

Greg says:

Hi COG.

Yes, you bring in some issues that may have played a part in that particular incident.

As I'm sure you've read on the stickman and Thaivisa sites, the story has been repeated countless times in countless permutations. Regardless of the cause of this particular incident, the pattern of such incidents is a cultural one, as that pattern does not happen in western cultures. I think the most common evaluations of the situation of Thais not wanting to accept being wrong fits the data most accurately. I suggest you are stretching to find reasons for the behavior that don't cause you to loose respect for Thais.

S- says:

better/worse good/bad wrong/wright is getting harder and harder to choose from huh....

i dont't want to sound like some vague person, but have you ever realised the effect the Thai manager, and ofcourse our friend falang the German brought?

S- says:

"S-, with all due respect, you sound like a very thoughtful and conscientous person, but until you have actually lived in another culture so unlike your own, i.e. the East, everything you say is based mostly on theory and you really are simply shifting in and out of one paradigm at a time as Greg says. "

You could be right on that, i simply cant tell... havent experienced yet, so only time knows.
People have told me the same thing, not about culture really, but other objects, in a same kinda, way. I consider it as a true signal.

" It's not my intention to take sides here, but you really need to be confronted with difference on a daily basis before you can really understand your own differences. And I know you mentioned living in Asia as a child for awhile, but that is completely different than as an adult. "

I dont know about that, you could be mistaking on that. I understand what you're saying though. Living as an adult is like expecting and doing everything you have with 100% (yes? no?) As a kid you can do everything on 50%, while the other 50% is about discovering, learning (crying/smiling), and watching.

Maybe the description above is a little bit to easy to symbolise what i'm trying to say, but i think you get my point, and i hope that is the thing u mean, so we agree.

If you take that description, i want to tell you that i have met and know people with some kinda 'forever young' eternity... real classics in my opinion... mostly people with an individual study of life and whole own phylosophy, grabbed together by Buddhism, Taoisme, Hindoeisme, etc, and all kindsa high valuable informative studies and experiences, and most important your own..

Everything has a reason, and it's up to you if you want to become mad or sad about it... or judge (same thing) ... accepting and putting it in balance is also an option

Maybe thatswhy i cant agree on the situation with the Thai manager story... but like GREG said, we havent been there, and there and 1001 extern factors which we dont know. More reason for me to ~ NOT judge ~ !

"To say that we are all the same, or can all suspend judgements of all sorts to achieve some sense of greater harmony or justice is simply dishonest in my view. It may not be maliciously dishonest, because I believe you have the best intentions in mind, but it is somewhat condescending. It is like gritting your teeth on the inside while flashing a benevolent, accepting smile. "

This would be true, IF you would not handle to this ideology. One of the reason is that people dont know how, and that is what life is for.... I think this is not based upon ratio (GREG, you should know this with your budha study(s) ) but upon feeling. Feeling that you should do something, makes me more comfortable, then (probably) knowing that the thing i do, is good, which is simply not true, because 'i always say; in life there 1 thing for sure; insecure '

Would you do this in your country, or to people that you respect and care about? "

I dont make differences between people who are in fysical form closer or not closer to me, or even in family form. This may sound a little bit strange to you... BUT here an exmaple; i have the same sorta respect for you, as i have, for my mother, for everyone. My mother didn't always understand this, and this gave a lot of heavy situations in our family, most people in my life. but somehow, on the long term, they seem to understand more and more of my handling method.

a country is just nothing more then a big line, written and printed on millions of maps laying around on this balll we're living on. love & respect has no limits for me.

" Of course you wouldn't, because it would not be true. That is the difference between visiting a place and living there. "

Isabel... if you only knew.... I actually dont want to spend a lot of words to this (in real life i avoid people with this kind of mentality, and the way i experience, thats about more then 85% in the place i live) ... let me say this, and i only speak for myself, and how i feel about this; there are really really exceptions walking around, and these people can really make you happy... there are not a few walking around ...but they are there! try to imagina that this person can also pobe yourself! people will call you ignorant very soon, but in my eyes, that is just because when they look at themself they find their own weakness of finding their real self, and to understand their own emotions and needs. Not an easy thing ....i am very struggling with it, but the discussions i have, the litterature i read, and the movements to east will definetely help me finding. typically western to avoid this kinda "spiritual bullshit" ... why bother about emotions and other feeling & spiritual stuff when we can make some hard $$$$ and hunt down all the goodies and easy things in life... Not better/Not worse. Own life, own choices. I have my own idea about what is more important in life on the long term, for me, for you, for everyone.

" This doesn't mean that you don't observe local norms and mores, or disregard behaviour that is irrelevant to your customs but very important to the host culture. Of course you show respect. "

Now we are getting somewhere.... 'Observing' is actually a very soft word compared to the lonelyness im facing with my ideology about east/west mentality overall, maybe it isnt about east/west, or what so ever a cultural issue... maybe that is just some great object to experience yet, to overcome your whole opionion. kinda hard to explain, but maybe you know what im saying.... maybe that connects the thing about 'first experience new culture on long term' you said to me. interessting. Time will tell.
But being a foreigner in a country does not and should not dictate that suddenly you are supposed to become a mute, blank slate, with no idea of ethics or morality.

Time will tell. 1 thing is for sure, I try not to bring my western habits along with me... sure ive been raised with western habits, but that doesnt title me as a western human.

"The terms 'ethics' and 'morality' are obviously loaded terms, because their meanings and practices vary from individual to individual. But I think to say that we cannot measure certain value systems cross-culturally because we are all from unique cultures is a sort of bland, guilt-laden, hypocrisy. "

Ofcourse we can't. Why would we measure anyway? Let me give you my short description of the word 'culture'.... For me, culture, is material for practise learning and showing respect to people with differents.... from outside, as well as for the inside. after all, (and we can even count the animals on that one) we all have a heart bass giving us life and making it possible for us to take and give ... that can be a post on mangosauce.com , as well as love. That goes for me, you, Germans, and Thai managers.

Dont get me wrong... GREG read: Did ya'll think i would entitle the Thai manager superior?

" It does not mean that we have to enforce our cultures and values on others, but according to your arguments, we can all then say, "oh well, the Sudan funds janjaweed to rape and mutilate black muslims because it is acceptable according to their religous customs and history ..."

Enforcing is a bad thing to do. Second, dont put words in my mouth. Hitler, Mass-murders in Africa, Israel/Palestina ... yes, very very very hard to understand that this has a reason (legitime? what does 'legitime' mean?) .... IT HAPPENS... and that is our reality, i guess we have options ... one of them is; what is your opionion about this? after that, 'taking action' follows... which can be 10001 things.

"Of course we judge and measure values across cultures, we always have and always will. We also measure and judge our own values in the process and this has benefited many people in the last century. "

'we' ? I hope my above comment about 'culture is practise' meets all the requirements to kick me out of the 'we' ...

"I'm from a minority population in the states, and whenever someone starts telling me that they see us as all the same and they are colourblind (or in your case, cross-cultural valuation blind), I usually want to run because I know that person is talking out of a place of dishonesty or guilt (or politcally correct dogma), and that doesn't really change anyones outlook or advance the human race as far as I can tell looking back in history. And for the record, I'm not even a neo-con, I'm a leftist independent. "

Why are you a minority Isabel? You are not what people try to make of you... unless you want to, it is about what you want to be yourself! It sounds very easy, i know... time is a valuable thing. Use it to understand, and handle to this. For me, as a white caucasian (i hate names/groups) human, i found no trouble in the social structure of my country in the West, i've been in USA, here goes same thing. I have experienced a lot of moments where people were treated based upon their looks/ appearance ... i felt shame. and most of all, i felt bad for the person in the situation. Most of the times this money is involved.....

Sure, we can't imagine and feel all the suffering and negative emotions in the world, that will make you kill yourself... it happened to a lot of people, including me, without succes. I guess i still have some work to do in the life im leading right now.....

Cog says:

Khun Greg wrote:
"As I'm sure you've read on the stickman and Thaivisa sites, the story has been repeated countless times in countless permutations. "

I am not aware of the permutations; however, I don't doubt they exist. I rarely visit the other sites; the last time I went on Stickman.com was to read the written pontifications of the Hemingway wannabe (without the earnest), Dana.
-----------------------------------------------------------

"Regardless of the cause of this particular incident, the pattern of such incidents is a cultural one, as that pattern does not happen in western cultures. I think the most common evaluations of the situation of Thais not wanting to accept being wrong fits the data most accurately."

I agree that a majority of these "incidents" stem from a cultural essence - to me, this is all the more to be yielding. Since the profile of the Thai psyche is one that involves a fragile ego, an incident that violates the ego/self often produces a violent outburst.
Generally, one or more of the following reasons could initiate a public display of anger from a Thai:
1) Unwillingness to compromise;
2) a loss-of-face;
3) mao ya, mao lao.

Contrary to your conclusion, I believe the trigger mechanism strictly involved No.1 and not No.2, or a combination of the two. The 'loss of face' is not the reasonable cause if one considers that the mistake was obvious and apparent. Clearly, the Thai waitress either: did not understand the German, or completely fucked up the order. A simple resolution could've easily been the removal of said meat in sandwich. However, I'd argue that the reason why the Thai manager and waitress weren't humbly apologetic was because they perceived the German as being arrogant and uncompromising - "เรื่องมากฉิบหาย!" I am going to guess that the German, upon discovering the violation of his dietary regimen, immediately expressed verbal discontent along with a possible slew of body gestures (eg. hands thrown up in the air) that Thais perceive to be offensive. Recollecting one's composure to politely ask the wait staff to correct the order fails to consider that their sensitivity and egos had already been severely jarred. It would be best if he simple left at that point.

I am not suggesting a Thai would have necessarily handled the situation better, but certainly s/he would have had better aware of the cultural dimensions involved. If one follows a cultural formula, then one expects to receive the intended outcome.
------------------------------------------------------------

"I suggest you are stretching to find reasons for the behavior that don't cause you to loose respect for Thais."

I have nothing against German vegetarians nor do I blindly exalt Thai culture. I just prefer NOT to prejudge an entire group of people based on a single ill-constructed anecdote. Give me some credit here...

Ronin says:

Cog: I can assure you (and anyone else who cares) of one thing... You are right about the Thai distaste for certain body gestures employed by farang to emphasize displeasure and dissatisfaction (among other things), particularly the rapid and aggressive use of hands to make a point. It is perceived to be offensive. Other farang gestures, like the shrug of ones shoulders to express "don't know" or "oh, well" can be annoying and frustrating (or appear downright silly-looking) to Thais as well.

Palimpsest says:

For those of you above who are interested in the history of Thailand during the2nd World War. This is overall the least known and misinterpreted part of Thai history.

I find that the history of Phibun Songkhram to be interesting.

I find him to be one of the most fascinating characters in Thai history. He was prime minister and military dictator in Thailand from 1938-1944 and 1948-1957. Studied in some army college in France and during the coup of 1932 which changed Thailand to a constitutional monarchy he joined the People's Party as its military representative and became prime minister . Became a Field Marshall. I think of all the people who singlehandedly changed the face of Thailand he stands tall. For starters he was the one who renamed the country from Siam to Thailand, and also finally introduced the western calendar.

A complete fascist of course. He got intoxicated with the Third Reich and sided with the Japanese in his misguided ambitions to control all the lands lost to the Brits and the Frogs and beyond. The war he won with the French made him a hero. Amazing is the number of dirty deals with Nazis and the Japanese. In fact, brought out so many new laws that made Thailand a funny little fascist state of its time.....the dress codes.... the regimentalisation of the state and so on. He was in jail and exile in Japan afterwards, however in 1948 he returned to office after a military coup. His final exile had been Japan where he died in 1964.

Amazing now that he has been deleted from Thai official history and Pridi is given as the man of pride, the man who redeemed Thailand of its misdeeds.

And Phibun and the Chinese....Jesus, this alone would fill books.

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I thought that Mr Peter's Dana's perceptive comments re the Second World War.

Palimpsest says:

............Their comments re the Second World War is on the mark.

Not many readable books about him though.....

dodgierog says:

To all the above. I have never read such mindless drivel .Tolerance and good manners will take you along way no matter what culture. The thai's I admire greatly ,for the love, and respect they express towards, there Royal family. Reminds me of how things used to be 80 years ago when britain still had an empire and the USA was still asleep. We are the past with our feminised morals, shriveled between our legs. Thailand and her ilk are the future.

Observer southeast asia.

Matt says:

This may be way to old to get a response, but maybe I don't understand the whole losing face thing. I thought that losing face in Asia meant you had f***ed up, aka you deserve to lose face. So I fail to see the point, if the waiter got the wrong order, then he should lose face. Why should I cover for them? The whole pretending you didn't lose face when you actually should have thing, am I the only one who it strikes as hypocritical?

Ludo says:

Had some similar experience at Patpong, also got cheated with this 1000 THB thing. Not much to do then I though, just go back to cowboy. But on my way out could stop a whole bunch of customers from going in, hehe. That felt great, believe me as the doorman just welcomed them in.

Chico says:

I hear the 'never been colonised' speech all the time in Thailand. A shaky concept to be proud of indeed.

In order to aid reconciliation, I think Thais should learn to be more respectful to the Americans. At the end of the 2nd world war, it was Americas intervention, that stopped Britain declaring war on Thailand due to the Thais collaboration with the Japanese, e.g allowing them have military bases here. :P

Having said that, from my experience, most Thais dont even know who Hitler is, so I doubt they will know about this little footnote in history.