July 17 2006

Naked truth about living in Thailand

What the farangs are really up to in Thailand

The average farang bloke living in Thailand returns home with his tail between his legs after just two and a half years.

Today, we find out why.

Last year, hundreds of Mango Sauce readers filled out an online survey designed by Robert Howard at the University of New South Wales and these are his preliminary results.

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Preliminary results of survey of Westerners Living in Thailand

Thanks to everyone who did the survey. This is a preliminary summary of some of the data so far, from about 900 respondents.

One day left until you have to leave Bangkok and already you suffer from "Thailanditis". The prescription: "Live here". Property agent's ad on the door of a bar in Sala Daeng.

Many Westerners have heeded that advice and have settled in Thailand. It is hard to estimate how many in total at the present, but the figure of 100,000 of Western residents is commonly cited. From various embassy estimates, I suggest perhaps 80,000. But many live there only for part of the year.

Living in one's favourite holiday destination usually turns out to be a quite different experience from visiting it for a few weeks each year. One often must work instead of play and the world behind the tourist facade eventually becomes apparent and may not be at all what it seemed.

Furthermore, living in Thailand is difficult in some ways for Westerners because it is a developing nation, the culture is so different and the Thai government mainly wants to keep Thailand for the Thais. It really prefers short stay, high spending tourists. Permanent residence is hard to come by, citizenship virtually impossible, and foreigners cannot even own land.

However, the main migration concern for the Thai government at present is the estimated one million or so "undocumented" migrants from neighbouring Burma, Laos and Cambodia.

The Western residents fall into many categories, and their stay in Thailand is likely to be quite different accordingly. Some are expats on generous expat contracts, often sent to Thailand by their company. Some are retirees living on pensions and/or investments, perhaps after having visited many times as a tourist. Retirees have been shifting to various developing nations for low living costs and better treatment of the elderly than is typical in the West. Mexico and Costa Rica have many American retirees, for instance.

Some respondents visited as tourists and decided to stay on and to try to live on a local salary. It's a rare case of large numbers of Westerners voluntarily moving to a developing nation and living under quite difficult circumstances, such as relative poverty and sometimes having to do a visa run every 30 days.

The aim of the survey was to find out some reasons why people migrate to Thailand, what experiences they have, why some leave and how it all works out in the end. The analysis below only covers some of the data and is just preliminary.

The sample demographics

The survey sample to date consists of 895 respondents, almost entirely male and many well-educated, with nearly half having a bachelor's degree. It is far from being a random sample. The age range was 18 to 79 years old, with a median of 43 years old. There were 28 females, some there as spouses of diplomats and expats but a few living independently. Many nationalities were represented. Largest numbers were as follows; 32% from the U.K., 28% from the USA, 14% from Australia, 6% from Canada and 3% from Germany.

Nearly 60% lived in Bangkok, with some in Isaan, Phuket, Pattaya, and Chiang Mai and a few other places.

About a third had no job in Thailand. Quite a few worked via the Internet in another nation. About 26% had a local job on a local salary (English teacher, dive instructor, etc), 23% had an expat contract job and 13% were on a retirement pension.

Length of stay

The median length of stay was only 2.5 years, with a range from 1 to 38 years. Most still in Thailand intended to stay for life.

Of those who had left Thailand (about a third of the sample), the median stay length was 1.75 years, with a range of 1 to 20 years.

Reasons for living in Thailand

A wide variety of reasons were given. The most common ones cited were the lifestyle, climate, Thai women/men, and lower living costs.

Lifestyle 52%
Low living costs 42%
Thai women/men 36%
Climate 35%
Thai culture 36%
Dislike home country 26%
To take up job 25%
Thai partner wanted to return 6%

Other cited reasons were the food, for business opportunities, a military or diplomatic posting, for study, and because a Thai partner could not get a visa to their own Western nation. Some specific comments were as follows:

"Lifestyle initially, though it paled quite rapidly."

"Arrived as backpacker, fell in love with the country and stayed".

"Until I left Australia, I had no idea how miserable life was."

On what was most liked and what were the main advantages of living in

Thailand, again most often cited were the women, the weather, the people, the pace of life, the low cost of living and the freedom.

Well-being

Two questions were asked; a rating of their own well-being in Thailand and their views on the well-being of other Westerners. Both were actually quite high.

Own well-being:

Excellent 40%
Good 46%
Neutral 10%
Poor 2%
Very poor
Of others
Excellent 21%
Good 54%
Neutral 18%
Poor 4%
Very poor 1%

On the main disadvantages of living in Thailand, the mostly commonly cited were the traffic, xenophobia/racism, heat, scams, pollution, sex tourists, corruption, and the immigration laws. On their main problems of living in Thailand, the most commonly cited were visas, pollution, learning the Thai language, corruption, and being seen as a walking ATM by locals. As one put it, a major problem was:

"Removing the FREE ATM logo from my forehead."

"Thais regard Westerners with a strange mixture of disdain, amusement, and opportunity."

Integration into Thai society

Many in the sample were well-integrated into Thai society by one usual migration criterion. Nearly half had either married a Thai or had a live-in Thai partner. Of the 28 women, four had either married a Thai or had a live-in Thai partner. Most (55%) personally felt accepted and most felt that farangs in general were accepted in Thai society.

Acceptance of farangs in Thai society

Excellent 11%
Good 48%
Neutral 25%
Poor 12%
Very poor 3%

However, the reality might be a bit different than the perception for many.

If we look at the main people respondents socialised with, nearly half (46%) socialised primarily with other farangs and another 5% mainly did with Thais in the bar scene.

And what was most missed about life in the West? Many explicitly and emphatically cited "Nothing!", but most commonly cited were Western food, TV, seasons, the rule of law, family and friends, intellectual conversation, cleanliness, logic, and even snow.

Reasons for leaving Thailand

A total of 286 had lived in Thailand but had left. Their median stay length was quite short, however, at about 1.75 years, with a range from 1 to 20 years. Many had not wanted to leave and would return if they could.

"Right decision for my kids, but personally I would rather be there."

"Forced to leave- Thai family nearly killed me."

Main cited reasons for leaving were as follows:

Financial reasons 39%
Left expat job 25%
Disillusioned with life in Thailand 20%
Visa reasons 11%
Missed life in West 9%
Family (often children's education) 4%

Some specific comments,

"Always a tourist."

"Could not accept being a farang all my life and not being given a chance to assimilate."

"Not good for young children."

"Thais look down on whites. They don't like us and I got tired of it."

"Unfairness, corruption and racism."

"Crime/bad girls."

"The girl told me lies from the first time I saw her. I was supporting her family and two Thai husbands."

Most ( 54%) still were happy with their decision to leave but 54% would still move back to Thailand if they won $10 million in a lottery.

Respondents' general comments

Some comments reflect an ambivalence about Thailand and others suggest that one needs a few years to see if living in Thailand really does suit.

"Heaven and hell in the same place."

"We are all treading on eggshells."

'"Some [farangs] really happy, but many have miserable lives."

"Thais consider farangs third class persons."

"Alcoholism is a problem among many."

"There are a lot of bitter and cynical farangs here."

"Good if you can adapt to the culture and way of life."

[I] "see an increasing number of people struggling to survive on a grossly inadequate income; 25% are very happy, 75% depressed and not living in the right place."

"Most farang fail here because they involve themselves with a Thai woman's family."

"If you want cheap sex and booze, its great."

"Basically to live in Thailand you need money... cash is king."

"Paradise for farang if have money."

"Always felt like a walking ATM."

"Should attempt to live in Thailand only if willing to learn the language."

Conclusion

The stay seems to work out well for many but a crucial factor is length of stay. Many would-be residents perhaps need a few years to work out if
Thailand is for them in the long-term. Some cited a four-year trial period as necessary.

"Initially great, eventually worse than home. Real honest friendships and relationships sadly lacking."

"Most farangs I know become worn down after ten years or so and return home. Honeymoon period lasts for about four years."

"In the beginning it was great and after four years I had enough."

"Living here is not for everyone. I see many farangs who I don't think should be here because of their attitude. A lot of adaptation is required which is probably why many take their Thai wives home. But I am treated like a king by my wife."

So to sum up, some suggestions for a successful transition are the usual ones for immigrants; be adaptable, take the good with the bad, learn the language, and have lots of money. But in addition, perhaps the trial needs a few years and one should be sure that the bridges back to the West are not burned if it all goes wrong.

For any inquiries, contact Dr. Robert Howard on rwh@unsw.edu.au

[Posted to Farang Life by David]

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Readers' comments

Jaques says:

Interesting point about the honeymoon period lasting 4 years. I have been here almost exactly 4 years and suddenly it's like a veil has been lifted. Thailand no longer has the same allure. For the first time I feel returning to Europe wouldn't be such a bad thing after all... Anyone else had this "4 year" experience?
Anyway, the key thing about being happy in Thailand is to have an enjoyable job that pays OK. Not so easily done...

July 17, 2006 5:50 PM

Bangkokram says:

Not alot too argue with there, and some big pauses for thought as well.

Good Report.

July 17, 2006 7:55 PM

Matty Boy says:

Interesting... Seems a fair percentage initialy relish living here after realising what a misery home country is, only to find out that this new found utopia is also a misery after 3/4 years. 'The grass is always greener' seems qualified here by a few hundred people. Question is; on returning back to farangland, would home feel the same way as you left it, or a hell of a lot worse? Mostly, a hell of a lot worse I guess. That leaves a massive conundrum; frying pan into the fire... Fed up with Thailand, yet the only saftey net you have (your home country) is shite. I personaly am a little miserable with LOS right now, however i know that a move back home would cripple me, mentaly. We here reports of 'The Pataya High Dive' daily - but i'll bet that there is a higher ratio of 'divers' who return back to farangland seeking normality, only to find normality sucks. Obviously, this never gets reported through the Thai media. Better to adapt to Thailand in my opinion. Take the rough with the smooth, and go with it.

July 17, 2006 10:21 PM

Fred says:

After 15 years in Thailand, I went back to the "real world" and got a "real job" I lasted six months. Everything has changed including you. I gave it a go. That thought of moving back is gone.Returned to Pattaya and just like everything in life it all depends on your outlook. You can be happy or not, it's all in the mind. We all bitch and moan but LOS is still a pretty good place.

July 18, 2006 5:40 AM

hugh says:

This is why I read mangosauce.
Full of insights.
I enjoy the daily battle of trying to hold on to my assets, while attempting to extract the maximum fun from this fantastic country.
Keep it up!

July 18, 2006 5:59 AM

Jon says:

Intersting Survey...

I used to live in Europe (Germany) and did so for about 4 years. I have travelled a fair bit and used to do a lot of work in London as well. Now at the advanced age of 42 (which is as we know the sum total of; "Life the Universe and Everything") I am considering such a move to Thailand in the next few years.

This article helped me to remember the Americans who were living as expats in Europe at the time I did, as well as the little things you miss on an overseas assignment.

For my part I would dearly love to live in LOS but I want to do so with enough money to not worry too much and I try to do things with open eyes. Living overseas before I think will help.

I am not I hope totally a babe in the woods. Living abroad successfully I believe requires planning, initiative and some effort. I know many Asians who live in the US from SEA and they face the same issues for the most part that we face there.

My wife is Thai and I love her family to the extent that I have considered living close to them. However I think it more prudent to live somewhere else, much as I now live about 1800 miles from my parents quite happily.

When I was abroad I missed the funniest things but none too much really. Since my wife's visa was just approved, she is now living in Northern California with me and she is the expat. I have tried to make things easy for her and have drawn on my own experience overseas to do that.

I have been to LOS enough I think to see a bit behind the curtain and I still like the place. Thailand has a lot to offer. A lot of folks who I see complaining I have difficulty imagining not complaining. My wife provided me with an example of this recently.

Not long ago we made a fire on the beach here in California and watched the sunset together. I had been visiting that beach for years and was really enjoying be able to share it with her. I asked her did she ever feel sad or miss Thailand terribly. I told her that I had been concerned that this could be a real possibility and that it would be some months before we could return home for a visit.

She smiled and told me much of what I felt myself. She said; "Well I was the one who wanted to move here so why should I be crying? That would be stupid."

I suppose if a person is unhappy in LOS that they can always return from whence they came. I understand the costs and the many issues associated with that decision but any of us contemplating such moves ought to be weighing these things before we take the plunge.

I appreciate the whole redemptive action of Matt Dillon‚Äôs character in City of Ghosts when he gave up all the cash to his deserving guide but what I wonder, did he plan to do for a living afterwards?

I think there are a lot of us that feel powerfully drawn to SEA and I often wonder if I am playing it too safe, or if I am wasting time working a plan...But then I read of the Pattaya plunge and go back to working on a sustainable solution. Anyway just a few scattered thoughts, again great article.

July 18, 2006 7:49 AM

jz bezos says:

i've traveled to thailand 9 times now. from what i see, most farangs are hard up for pussy. the profile farang in bangkok is 45 years old, fat, bald and ugly....couldn't score pussy back in the uk, usa or canada. comes to bangkok and finds that young thai hookers will actually talk to them!!! and then your article is spot on...

July 18, 2006 9:09 AM

Combover says:

Well, much of the above applies to expats anywhere. Expats often get disillusioned, depressed or maladjusted.

The feeling of dislocation for someone who is less marketable in their home country, or who cannot afford to go back, and who realises that their career and life options are perhaps more limited in their adopted home, is very easy to understand.

This must be even more the case when "the kid in a sweet shop syndrome" regarding girls in Thailand eventually pales and wears thin.

What to do?. For a start, easy on the booze, stay healthy & exercise regularly, do normal things, go normal places. Nothing changes if you can't stay away from the fleshpots of Pattaya.

July 18, 2006 10:30 AM

Assadd says:

It is truly said that going there to live like an outsider will make your wish come true, you will be like an outsider. Same about returning to any farang land, how much an outsider you want to be depends on whether you want to take the steps needed to be an insider or not. Naturally, language and learning the ways has a lot to do with it.

July 18, 2006 10:38 AM

William says:

Interesting article, and for most part all true !!....i've lived here 3 years, and YES, it's a challange! but i live in a thai town that has few farongs or tourist....the respect and treatment of us farongs by the locals here is very different than in places such as Pattaya, Phuket, Bangkok etc......and i'am not excited to go back to my life in America...execpt i would love a good cheese burger !!!!

July 18, 2006 11:44 AM

Rick H. says:

Any man who vistits or resides in Thailand came EXCLUSIVELY for sex. You all did searches on Google for "cheap sex asia girls", found out about a place called Pattaya, read the reviews on the World Sex Guide, and started planning your trip. You are not fooling anyone with your "I really like Thai culture" bullshit.

July 18, 2006 12:26 PM

Gman says:

Have to disagree with your man William above.
I came to Thailand 9yrs ago to work on an engineering posting and ended up staying, its not just your fat 60yr old flabsters who end up out here.
Theres more to the place than 'cheap sex asia girls', you just have to scratch a bit deeper, its a unique sorta place, both good and bad.
Learning the language is probably the key, we arent all sex tourists matey.

July 18, 2006 1:49 PM

Andy says:

Same as Gman above, I came here on an engineering work contract, and stayed here continuing to work.
Truth be known, aspects of this place can start to get on your tits after a few years; so you should make sure that you havn't burned all your bridges back home, and make a trip "home" or some other place out of here occasionally to keep a sense of perspective and sanity.
Learning the language is a massive plus, and ensures that you are "in the loop" at work and around town.
Its a great life here if you keep your wits and sense of humour.
Its people like Rick H. above who read like bitter little men... When are you planning a "vistit" over then, mate? ;-)

July 18, 2006 3:26 PM

phil H says:

Lot of good points made. I first went to LOS 1992 for extended business trip. Ended up on a two year assignment that lasted 'till 2004 with only one brief return visit to UK.

Loved the place, the life style, the weather, the food but the problem was, and all too often is, that the life was one big lie. As Combover said, you need something ordinary to do. Something so mundane you'd be embarrassed to admit to doing it. In short you need a reality check. Took a bit longer than four years to see through the lie but by then had settled in too much and just couldn't face return to the UK.

In the end the decision was made for me and I returned to reality and, via a few jobs, am now on contract in Kuala Lumpur. Still miss LOS but at least now it's only a two hour flight so long weekends are the order of the day.

My advice to anyone settling in Thailand, or anywhere else in the region, is to get away from expat communities with their moaning minnies. Get into the local way of life as much as possible and learn the language. The best way to learn any lingo is to get into a situation where you have to. The more you speak the language the more chance you have of blending in.

By the way Rick H, for someone who obviously hates sex tourists you sure know the words for the search engines. Is that how you found the place?

July 18, 2006 4:06 PM

alec says:

ive been here 18 months originally from the u.k feel as if i was born in the wrong country i hate confrontation and find the thai way of doing things so much better than back home. I think the best thing to do is visit as many times as possible before making a decision i live in korat and most of my friends are thai try to avoid other farangs at all costs . As for learning the language yes it is advantageous but i always seem to manage my mum always says if she could have her time again she would live somewhere hot and where life isnt as frantic the thought of having to return to grim england where most of the population are looking for a way out is too awful to contemplate.

July 18, 2006 9:57 PM

mark says:

Your commments have all been fantastic and very insightful. I moved to Hawaii about 6 years ago from Minnesota and I am contemplating moving to LOS next spring.
I will be traveling to Phuket next month for a vacation and scouting trip. I "did" Pattaya last year and was overwhelmed but had fun, I wouldn't want to settle there.
I will have to work and would appreciate any thoughts on location and employment. You all probably think that a year probation is way too short. I live in frickin' paradise with TV and the best food and it still took four years to get used to it and I'm still a "hoale".
Thanks!

July 19, 2006 8:01 AM

Rick H. says:

Thank you Andy and Phil H. You have shown me the error of my ways. I have been blind to the joys and mutual benefits of "sex tourism" (previously known as whore mongering).

There must be SOME downsides though, eh? While you two are out shagging young Thai girls for money, you can't very well be at home with the wife and kids at the same time can you? Oh, I guess they were the first casualties of your new, free-wheeling, fun lifestyle choice. Maybe both of you have available daughters? Maybe even granddaughters (more likely)?

Let's make a deal. Since you both so adamantely adocate sex toursism, you obviously wouldn't have a problem if those young, sweet, nubile female relations of yours enter the sex toursim trade. After all, the family you left behind could use a little financial help now that your income is now spread about Pattaya or Nana Plaza. (I bet you can be quite generous with the charming young go-go dancers).

Here is the deal... you provide me with the e-mail addresses or phone numbers of your own female relatives (the young attractive ones only please) and I will forward the info to my Nigerian and Angolan co-workers on the West African oil rigs. With petroleum soon to hit $90 a barrel, there are many, many large black men making lots and lots of money. You may be shocked to find out that THEY TOO are interested in "mutually beneficial sex-tourism!!! They do, however, show more interest in young, tight, willing, white girls. You of course would have NO problems with this, I'm sure, as you feel so strongly about the positive aspects of your chosen pastime.

So the day your grandaughter hits the minimum legal age, let's have at her. I bet she is cute. She can make some good money. Well...at first anyway. Let's be real... after her sweet, tight orifices are stretched to the limit by a few dozen big black (you know what), her value is bound to drop. I'm sure she wouldn't mind if some of these eager African sex tourists bring their new video cameras so they can show their friends back home. Your granddaughter will be a star.

Your local economy will be another beneficiary. All those new jobs created for white boys!! Someone has got to drive all these rich Africans and Arabs from the airport to the brand new fun filled sex tourist destination coming to your country (Austrailia, right?)

Thank you so much, fellas. You are absolute geniuses. Now how about that phone number, eh? The black boys are surprisingly eager.

July 20, 2006 7:54 PM

Andy says:

Getting awfully lonely on those African oil-rigs then, Rick H? Good job you have your "large black men" co-workers and feverish imagination to keep you occupied in your cabin, sweetheart,...

Amateur-hour psychology is usually a little more credible when its spelt correctly, btw.

July 20, 2006 8:56 PM

Jon says:

When I read comments like Rick H. and jz Bezos I have to say that I enjoy them.

David gave us a great link lately to a farang lady's website that had a similar rant running. She comes across just like the small minded little brat that she must be.

Now that I have traveled to LOS enough to be recognized by the China Air gate crew in San Francisco and am married to a Thai I feel that I have enough time in the field to at least comment when I see these. For the most part my guess is that these folks are just baiting you all; there remains the possibility that they really do feel that way.

If they do see all of the men traveling to Thailand in this way they are in error. In my own case for what it is worth I did an awful lot of research on the history and culture as well as places to stay and dive.

No need to Google yourself silly about the nightlife either. If that is your goal: read Mango Sauce, Stickman or Bangkok Tonight. Everything you wanted to know but were not afraid to ask can be found within those pages...

Speaking of the nightlife I don't think our pious posters have spent as much time out as most of us have. Not all of the folks out these days are 60+ year old pensioners wallowing on the beach like beached walruses...

In defense of that profile I do have to ask; "So what is the problem with those guys?" Are they to be denied companionship or sex with another consenting adult? Or is it as the feminazis in the west would have it be?

You know sloppy fat bull dykes dumping their salary-man husbands to move in with their butch girlfriends and taking the kids and the money? Oh yeah now there's the moral high ground. I live in California and see this all the time with lady farangs.

I have a neighbor woman who acts like this. She is tall blond, has a Master‚Äôs Degree in Social Work and doesn‚Äôt work‚Ä¶ She is constantly suing her ex-husband for more money and child support. She doesn‚Äôt get anywhere with that these days as the kids moved in with him. She spends what money she has on drugs booze and bikers and the house she stole from her ex-husband is falling down around her as she clearly doesn‚Äôt want to drain her entertainment fund for such frivolities as building maintenance. Her two dogs roam the area hungry because she doesn‚Äôt feed them. I finally tired of this and called her up one evening at midnight after her hounds had dumped our garbage for the hundredth time. She was so sorry she assured me that she would come pick it up the next day. The next day I didn‚Äôt see her but rather some burnt out druggy guy shows up that is now living with her and cleans up our garbage. This annoyed me since our home isn‚Äôt in a ghetto. Farang ladies while they rant about men with Thai bar girls love nothing better themselves than to get fucked rotten by boozed out pot bellied highwaymen. Needless to say she began to remind me more and more of my ex-wife‚Ä¶The happy ending to her story is that after being kicked out by her, her ex started his own web company and is now worth about 12 million $$ US. She used to do yard work for me but I had to let her go because I got sick of her constant wailing about how it wasn‚Äôt fair that he had all that money now and she couldn‚Äôt get any of it.

I wasn't "hard up" for companionship but I loved going out in LOS. The ladies I met were mostly sweet and fun to be around. I was honest with them and treated them well and they did the same with me. I didn't lose perspective but didn't for me mean that I had to dehumanize them or the older punters I met.

Inside or Outside of the P4P arena Thai women are also IMHO a much better deal usually than farang ladies. For me my wife has really driven this home for me. We respect each other, we communicate well together we consider each other's needs and we don't have the fights or arguments that I had with farang ladies, we have never even had a fight.

Western women love to complain and whine and they have lost sight of reality in life. They are also for the most part self centered and judgmental. Finally they are mostly overweight and impossible to please.

Why then do Rick and jz find such fault with such a perfect example of the "Invisible Hand" theory?

For example I no longer buy American cars because (though I am quite patriotic) I don't like getting screwed over. I used to be married to an American feminazi and after my divorce dated American and European women and they squeaked and rattled more than the old Buick I drove in High School. If I was going to compare my Thai wife to a car I would have to day she's a Lexus.

So while I am not old, fat, bald or perverted I love LOS in general and Thai ladies in particular. Yep I‚Äôll take a Lexus over a Yugo any day.

July 21, 2006 4:48 AM

Pj says:

Been here 3.5 years and finished my expat job about 18 months ago.
It's a bit tough coming down from the padded pay packet and paid accomodation, but I got married had a couple of kids, started my own company and now have a contract that pays reasonably well. Not european rates, but ok.
My Thai family are great, and treat me far too well. I've spent most of my savings on creating a life here in Thailand and it's been fun to do.
Working in thailand has not been what I expected. It is a very different culture and not easy if you are used to planning, quality control and deadlines. Thailand is more about relationships, adequate effort and respect (regardless of merit). It's possible to do satisfying work here, but very difficult.
I think the most important thing is to learn the language (something I haven't been too successful with).
Reasons to leave Thailand: Lack of decent wine & cheese, piss poor quality of trades, extortionate English schooling, constant attempted rip-offs (though not major),traffic & price of cars, heat,pollution, lack of intelligent conversation!
Reasons to stay: Thai Street/beach food, my wife & kids, her family, the maid, having a driver, having a nice house for 100k, friendly people, not having to pay 250 quid for a plumber, 2 quid for a taxi home at night, swimming pool.
I don't actually care where I live, so long as I have interesting work and my family with me. I doubt I'll be in Thailand forever, but if I find something to do that occupies my time and pays a decent income, then maybe.

July 21, 2006 3:51 PM

Rick H. says:

Did I hit too close to home there Andy? Enough of your childish personal attacks. If you feel so strongly that your whore mongering is appropriate behavior, let's have that phone number.

July 21, 2006 8:29 PM

Assadd says:

Mark, I also moved to Hawaii from Minnesota. Rather than taking off again and living in Thailand, I've just been going there annually for a month or so, past 25 years, with my Thai wife and our children.
Just so you know, they sex bar dancing in Thailand is extremely boring and nothing compared to the local Filipino dancers in Hawaii. However, in HI it would be all show & no go, and in TH it would be all go and very little show. So, you have to weight the choices. Personally, I'm worried enough about all sx that I prefer nothing but BJ from cute girls, a little less risky for AIDS that full sx. Hard to sneak out, though, the closer you get to living in a village versus BKK, obviously her BROTHERS aren't going to bring you for a fun night on the town.

July 22, 2006 3:01 AM

TANAI KWAI says:

Rick H. writes,

"Enough of your childish personal attacks."

Hmmm, quite. No personal attacks please! Shame on you people for not allowing this perfectly lovely man to grind his axe with impunity.

In the interest of discouraging whoremongering I submit that David should cordon off ample "safe space" for profoundly racist allegorical fantasies about horse-sized African penises penentrating the "sweet, tight orifices" of white adolescents.

The next time I'm in the mood for a wild-eyed rant that clumsily panders to society's worst prejudices, I'll turn to Rick H. He's an inspiration. And by "inspiration," of course, I mean "asshole."

Who's healthier, the average punter or the mind that contrived this tortured mess?

(winky)
TK

P.S. The famously racist American politician and former Ku Klux Klan leader, David Duke, secretly amassed perhaps the most prodigious collection of "black-dicks-in-white-chicks" pornography in the southeastern United States. Like Rick H., Duke did not suffer personal attacks quietly and strongly opposed prostitution on moral grounds.

July 22, 2006 10:38 AM

phil H says:

Rick H,
thanks mate, you opened your mouth (metaphorically speaking) and proved my point.

PS if all your big black, hung like donkeys crowd of roughnecks are dreaming about tight white pussy it's because they're bored of your slack arse.

July 22, 2006 11:01 AM

Andy says:

"Did I hit too close to home there Andy? Enough of your childish personal attacks. If you feel so strongly that your whore mongering is appropriate behavior, let's have that phone number."

Sorry Rick H. I only give my phone no. out to nice boys, so you won't find it scrawled on the toilet wall next to your Mandingo warrior's "glory hole". You'll have to ask a lot more nicely than that, sweetie!

July 22, 2006 11:03 AM

seedless says:

I don't have a daughter, does this mean that I can fuck as many thai girls as I like?

July 24, 2006 5:21 AM

Jon says:

The next survey should aim to target only those farangs that do not regularly spend time in gogo bars. How a survey might accomplish this, I do not know, but no general comments/statistics can be drawn when the sample of those surveyed is so full of people whose outlook on a country is so fundamentally based around one industry. Questions about "Thailand" are answered by people who know only "Pattaya/Nana" and in most other surveys would only represent less than a few percent of the whole sample. Questions about "Thai girls" are answered in a majority by men who know only "Thai prostitutes" plus perhaps one, two or three 'normal' Thai females. This is a peculiarly Thailand related problem as the expat pool here is so particularly focused on the sex industry.

Remember in many (most?) cases we are talking about men who wake up between soi 1 - 50 sukhumvit (or similarly in Pattaya), eat between soi 1 - 50 sukhumvit and then entertain themselves between soi 1 - 50 sukhumvit. The Thai people operating between soi 1 - 50 sukhumvit can hardly be considered representative of Thai people country wide.

The amount of middle aged westerners I have met who have lived here longer than me yet do not even know the basic geography of Bangkok is eye opening.

July 24, 2006 12:12 PM

tom dorman says:

how much money would you need to relocate and live modestly in thailand
can you buy a cheap busness and live on the profits?

July 26, 2006 12:43 AM

Anonymous says:

tom,
WARNING, WARNING, WARNING!

The beer bars of Bangkok, Pattaya, Patong, Ban Chang to name but a few are littered with the burned out, washed up carcasses of guys who thought they could make a go of it in LOS.

First piece of advice : forget it.

Second piece : if you are really keen to give it a go, get over there (I assume you are not there yet), find an expat running a similar business and ask him (assuming he's willing to give free advice).

Third piece of advice : leave sufficient funds back home to start over, sorry to say you'll probably need them.

July 27, 2006 4:13 PM

meister says:

Good advice Anonymous!

Several of my mates have either made the move or currently working towards it.

While none of them yet are burned out they do have some shocking habits. The standard response to my question "What would you do if you have to come back?" seems to be "Kill myself!"

Food for thought! Stick with the yearly vists! (even that's not healthy!)

July 27, 2006 4:58 PM

Alan says:

Ouch! Oooh! Hey guys, I need your input because I am fixing to give Thailand a bash, but lay off the 60 year old balding ugly flabsters...I¬¥m getting hurt.

I¬¥ve just turned sixty and I¬¥m niether flabby or bald, my morning workout includes eighty
press-ups. Ugly?- well beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so you`ll have to ask my little Thai Lady.
Retirement is looming and one thing I can tell all you raving age discriminazis out there is that I am definately not planning to sit on the park bench and feed the ducks!

Especially as my lady has invested years of effort in me, teaching me the language, culture and history and taking me the length and breadth of the country Thai style, to try and get me to fall in love with the joint.

I don`t resent letters like Rick`s because my attraction for Thailand was Chromosome-triggered
and I love the feminine eye-candy aspect just like everone else.

But to blow-away any body who likes other aspects of the culture or lifestyle too as Bullshitting shows a very limited outlook on life. Learning a foreign language, appreciating another culture, going-to- black and rethinking your criteria, Jesus what have you been given an imagination for? Whoever wrote ‚ÄúYou can`t teach an old dog new tricks‚Äú didn¬¥t know zilch about old dogs!

Dear Rick, it isn¬¥t just a case of either sex or culture you can have it all! you can`t screw and booze twenty four hours a day everyday of the week (unfortunately) so if you have niether the interest or the fantasy to find out about what else Thailand has to offer then you are in for a very boring time.

We like living in Germany and so my lady (a raving patriot and a PR ace about her country) has a hard job to convince me that I should move permanently to Thailand, especielly as many of the drawbacks mentioned here are aparent to me without ever having lived there.

However there is now the long-stay ruling, for those over 55, and what with the prices of rentals in the Chiang Mai area which I just happen to like very much, I don`t need to become too established. Just rent long-stay and enjoy the Winter, cheap prices, great shopping, wonderfull shows, fantastic food, all the eye-candy I can use, and I can o.d. on massage untill I go boss-eyed without going bankrupt.

At worst I¬¥ve lived out a winter at half the price of staying in Germany, and replenished all my shirts down at Bayoke Phratunam. Who Knows? Maybe I¬¥ll want to stay forever after all.

July 28, 2006 10:06 PM

David J says:

I think Rick H. makes an excellent point. If these fools saw sex tourism taking place in their own communities, and saw the sad after affects on their society, they would not be so nonchalant about the topic. His comments must have got under their skin or else they wouldn't bother to respond with the lame "go fuck a black man" insults.

August 12, 2006 7:21 PM

Dicer says:

http://www.dogpsychologycenter.com/

After watching him on TV I was thinking, for farang geezers surviving Thailand is like attending an animal behaviourist's therapy session.
Just saw another one of Ceasars dog whisper and this time the issue was about respect. A tiny dog took over a family and would not show respect to the wife...nipped her...and I thought there it is...all the hissing sneering and lack of respect is to make sure you never become an alpha male in LOS...instead you are to cringe, whimper and roll on your backs. Thais are absolutely determined not to show you respect, keep you in the margins of the pack and if you get a female, she is to take you over, same thing....no politeness, you are forced to submission... keep you in your place as an older male but no power and no status. Watch how systematic this is. They have a whole show going.. So how can one stay an alpha male in Thailand and not end up a zeta gerbil or a beta buffalo?

On the same TV dog training program was the answer. Picture this. A pack of pekinese. A great dane shows up and wants to get in the pack and hangs around the outside whimpering and rolling on its back. It brings treats like rabbits to the pack to show what a good dog he is, but they grab the rabbit and ignore him ( a bit like your tart taking your money and sneering at you with her family)..when the great dane actually steps into pack territory a low ranking female pekinese beta will nip him. He then races back to hide his rabbit. He cowers under trees 20 m away and says I'll fix them. And now...the great dane thinks..."ah, I know what's wrong, I should have brought a better rabbit or a this or a that...and yes...this is my role...to follow them and bring them treats...then they will LIKE me." Similarly for the geezer his ego-strength is reduced, the new mobile phone is bought for the tart, the more the gifts the more the sneers.

You see the same process of US females trying to get to alpha female status and put males at beta or zed...like that? The neutered geezers run to LOS and become all sweety-nice like come rolling over here cringing, whimpering. What they superimpose is that in LOS it is OK to be a beta sub pack male...

A clue to psychotic foreigners who shack up with village tarts is this. Every statement has a "But surely" in it. You tell that to an animal behaviourist and he'll tell you that the pekinese are ok and the problem is with you. BUT is refutation and SURELY is a supposition...a superimposed idea to plop on an idea that does not pan out with local reality. There it is: neutered geezer self psychotically reduced to a zeta hamster in his front room even afraid to analyze the rice people....

The alpha droping to zeta is common. Years ago as foreign advisors to a Thai govt department there were 5 of us in one building. 5 foreigners from four countries to advise them how to do stuff. They took one look and decided to reduce us from alpha foreign males to zeta nothings. How did they do that? Simple, back to dog psychology.They appointed a new MA who came back from a US university as our section leader. There we are in a room, 5 pathetic barbarians drooling in submission and in walks a 25 year old girl who doesn't even have to smirk because the situation already is a huge SMIRK. The entrance of her body is 500% loss of face in the room, and she calmly tells older males etc just what to do. We have a young female with no experience, zed on the pack scale telling us what to do and in the canteen the menopausal hags are screaming with laughter and wetting their pants rolling on the floor...one idiot didnt get it and he kowtowed (he was the worst). On the other hand two of us Brit and Yank were looking on keenly because as soon as a meeting is over we would strike deals with the girl and at least bamboozle the Thais into getting us the good stuff. Eventually you see the Thais slapping you in the face every chance they get.

Groveling and being nice, squirming on the floor and promising to get the right documents is so sickening they have to use massive self control from stomping you right in the face.

They live in the moment and dont care...so what to do?

If you become a clever great dane and at least get the pekinese at the beginning with an alpha male plan you have a bit of a chance but if you wander in SUSPENDING ANY SEMBLANCE OF ALPHA RULES you are cooked...if you watch the dog show you'll see...tiny little dogs terrorizing huge adult humans into submission...two yorkies took over half the house and the family had to blockade them and stay in the family room,...same with another where a tiny dog took over the bed and the wife had to sleep on the couch...over and over...what does Caesar do? First he catches the dog in the act, makes a reprimand sound, then pulls the chain...but this is not enough...so he picks them up by the back of the neck and they go into pack submission...another is to make them lay on their side...they give up...then he starts the training...dogs do exactly the same thing but nip....

One of the foreign advisors in the office was a US ex-army guy. He didnt give a shit about the girl boss and marched in barking orders. Although they could have tossed him out for being a rude farang they didn't. They reacted to his alpha male status and he actually got away with murder. One ploy was first day of new project to march in and shout at the silly comatose staff...half would freak out and the others submitted...You have to do it right at the beginning. Training government employees my trick was to do a test at the beginning trick and to those who thought not showing up for test would mean no result and hence no failure, I'd write a big red F on a plain paper and put their names on top and pass it round for all to see. After a couple of weeks the entire class went into shock and were terrified although i never screamed...this is consensual fear...the pekinese talking it over.

When all else fails I would fly into a rage over some small thing and scream and rant and then suddenly yawn, change tone and go right into a mundane topic...and you could see the fear creep up their necks into their faces as they realized you were alpha male...if you get red in the face and lose it, they snicker because that is a wannabe female poking around. Sometime to increase alpha status the ex-army guy would shout at the snearing office girls in german! To this day when he visits the office the govt staff are in awe. Sure they respect someone who is in control. The sight of a tall blonde yank screaming at puny office girls in german used to reduce us into tears of laughter.

Thais work on a process level so my test situation at the beginning of class worked because they are geared for that, but direct alpha male screaming German works as well..The ex-army yank did a screaming tirade saying when they walked in the door they were on yank territory etc etc and it worked. In Asia with a lot of harmonic auditory people in place you also have a lot of peasant culture that is very gender based and rules about what males and females do ( you are told not to do dishes, sweep the floor or laundry). One filthy rich bkk Chinese lady I knew had an alpha lower income husband that got the whole family in line...marched in first at the restaurants and barked out where all were to sit. She loved and admired this. So at peasant level you need a semblance of alpha behaviour. If you come creeping in on your belly, you are going to be in trouble and ditto for any peasant society. In macho countries like Spain, Mexico or even Japan and Korea no female would get near you, but in LOS the calmer energy gives way to the smile cringe stuff and you think you can pull the "Heck call me fatty hyuk hyuk." It's interesting that the Japanese who get a lifetime training on roles already have a plan when they get a local tart and the girls love the structure filling up their void lives, no sneers and no disrespect.

In dog psychology another really interesting thing is eye contact...if you look right at a Thai it is a challenge...an alpha does not challenge lower ranking people, but ignores them. They automatically recognize this, but a direct look is a challenge. One village girl would stare at everyone as low ranking peons do and as a consequence she got rude comments wherever she went. At one point a Sukhumvit Indian told me to ignore stare challenging Thais and I found it really worked. Anyway the more I think about it what these deluded geezers need is to attend one of Cesar Millan's sessions or recruit animal behaviorists to depict to them how the evolutionary pattern of survival of the farang misfits fits into that of survival of the local mutants. When you make survival a non issue and people so large they can't get in airplane seats, it is a weak moment and beta Western females try to take over, and the mass male ego goes to whimper. If you watch Caesar he has disdain and derision flashing in his yellow eyes as wealthy slob WASPs are cowed by tiny dogs, you know he knows...these people are lost.

September 17, 2006 9:51 PM

Edwardo says:

Lets be up front here - lots of western men who consider a life in Thailand do so because they can't "score" in their homelands and they see Thailand as a some imagined paradise where the streets are lined with young, available, gorgeous women who eagerly seek the company of foreign men. As someone has already pointed out, the typical male seeking to relocate is in his 40s, overweight and has some money to spend. As long as these men realize that their money is the sole source of their appeal to the women then all seems to be well but lots of these guys are so desperate for affection that they can't see it (or choose not to).

Of course there are men who actually marry Thai women and start a family with the best of intentions though they frequently underestimate the work required to integrate into the culture which is something that can never truly be accomplished. At best , one is only tolerated. No farang is EVER fully embraced so if you are reading this with the idea of making Thailand your home then keep this in mind.

From reading these posts I'm reminded of
the trend in the late 90s wherein lots of western men saw Japan as a paradise of submissive women so they tried to make a life for themselves there without doing full research into it. They thought that they were going to coast into Tokyo and women would be swarming all over them. Of course most of these guys didn't know how to even begin to break into the culture let alone meet a
woman so the reality really hit them hard so lots of them bolted. Some stayed and they are frequently bitter about not being "accepted" in Japan or "back home" so it does wear on them. Presumably it is the random hookup with a Japanese woman that keeps them going but isn't there more to life than some fetish ?

Also - being obese isn't any more appealing in Tokyo than it is in America but it didn't stop lots of middleaged types from thinking that they can have a huge beer gut and be successful with women.

September 19, 2006 11:36 PM

Dicer says:

Dog Whisper and Cesar Millan just get better ...every single case is a new insight into behaviour itself. One lady who was a problem got the treatment instead of the dog and was fairly cured...and she said so...she was afraid to leave her house and Cesar got her in his dog place with 40 dogs and a pack of pit bulls. He taught her how to walk, how to have a positive mental image and how to not look at the dogs. Perfect. Stare at locals and you'll have a problem. A stare is a challenge to village folk everywhere. Peasants in general. Even in Uruguay they tell you, while walking around Montevideo which is middle class and low key do not stare at locals.

The first rule is tire the dog out. Perfect for therapy because in humans and dogs too much energy is neurosis. Then right posture, right mental attitude and setting limits. An awareness of basic animal territoriality is necessary as well ...... Therapy R Us

Can you see yourself taking the geezers around, body posture, mental image, through the Bangkok mall challenged by pekinese mall girls. Getting the old guys not to stick their tail between their legs. I suspect a huge amount of this is self image; the thought in mind as one ambles around. What would a Maasai warrior be thinking when a Tops aisle girl tries to run him over near the canned soup? You can bet male tribes would pick up on the lack of respect quickly.

Imagine your first visit to your tarts village palace. Her mother comes out with her cash plans and you say calmly, "We don't do that.." or One does not do that..or the like. Set the boundary immediately. The other day I saw a man knock a roll of toilet paper into the aisle at Tops and then booted it out of the way...a 30ish lady picked it up and replaced it. He gave her his nasty look. I told a friend this and he said he would have put the roll back. Of course, and he was exactly like the guy who said, "I'm sorry," when candid camera pulled the cans down in a store and he's like the guy who bought "car scratch" insurance at a car wash with the same I AM NOT REALLY A MALE crooked smile. And he's the hunting dog terrified of the city who Cesar fixed by putting a leash on the dog's tail. The dog was walked with the tail up (not between the legs) and eventually got back to being a male hunting dog again. Neutered and terrorized this is what happens to people who do not know what to do in a peasant society.

October 18, 2006 9:28 PM

Maximiliano says:

I have been coming to Thailand since 1998 and I have lived permanently here for almost 2 years and got married to a Thai.

Well, I felt that if you are Buddhist and can speak Thai , Thais will treat you very good even if you are a farang.

Regarding the girl's family: well, here you need to be lucky. The girl's family is the key of your life: if they are fuc...up, you are finished, your life will become a hell , if they are good guys and don t see you only like a $$$ ,so then you can enjoy Thailand.

There are many good things in Thailand, the odd thing for me is the fuc...ing immigration law, which is one of the hardest in the world for a foreigner to live in.

October 19, 2006 6:30 AM

Andy says:

Maximiliano, you're a breath of fresh air. ... Sit a spell.

October 19, 2006 7:17 PM

Bill says:

My first time in LOS was 1987 with the US Navy. I was 22 and had a great time. Have been back probably 90 times since then and spend all my vacation time there broken up into 1 or 2 week stays. I am fast approaching retirement and plan to give it a go staying there. I no longer go to Pattaya, or Bangkok (except passing through the airport). Must be all the time in the service and never having a regular lifestyle but I seem to fit in. I am polite to people, have a girl who keeps my interest high enough that I have no desire to go hit a bunch of TBG's. She resides in Sukhothai and When I travel to LOS I catch the first hop up there with minimal delay. To give an example of the difference between Bangkok/Pattaya and a place like Sukhothai I will relate a true story.

In the mornings I wake about 6:00 am and immediately (after my morning constitutional) run 5K to the market. I buy a beer, a pack of cigarettes, and a water. This usually runs me about 65 baht. I drink the beer smoke a cigarette and then run back to the house for my morning shower with the girl, who is usually up by then if she is up same time as me she follows me on her motorbike (the water is for drinking on the way back). One day I gave the guy at the market 100 baht note and left out to run back. I forgot the cigarettes, and the beer on the counter and just took off with the water. Two days later stopped in with the girl to pick up some essentials and the shop owner took 100 Baht off my bill. I asked why and it was cause he remembered me leaving my smokes, the beer, and my change behind. He was embarassed that he let me leave without my stuff so he threw the water in for free. Needless to say I was a bit impressed by the fellows honesty. That seems to be the norm up there though as I have never been charged a "pharang" price in any of the shops or markets around Sukhothai. Of course I have never even seen another "farang" there unless I took a friend with me who wanted to see the place. I am learning the language slowly and get by pretty well even without my girl to translate. Best advice, stay in shape, don't act like your something special cause you got a little money, don't get the biggest or fanciest house in the village (come on this is common sense, why rub it in that you have more than they do), smile alot and be friendly. Nobodies going to treat you like shit if you treat them well. I even got invited by the local police force and fire department to play "thai volleyball" with them when I was jogging past thier municipal building. My play wasn't the best but afterwards we all sat around and did shots of thai whiskey (no one asked me to buy, they offered I drank). Now, these fella's all wave and smile when they see me and I am getting better at the game. The 10 to 15 year old crowd in the neighborhood come over to the house after school and we play soccer till dark, they kick my ass but seem to have a good time and the exercise is great. I think I will be ok retiring thier and don't expect too much trouble. Maybe it's because after riding ships for 23 years in very crappy living conditions I don't expect much.

October 23, 2006 3:50 PM

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