Pattaya girl's disarmingly sexy arse

Echobeach says:

In the army I remember one of the boys saying he had a tattoo of a nose and eyes above the top of his arse crack.

According to him if you went further south there were a couple of small hands mid way on his butt cheeks. The total result was 'sposed to be a small person trying to escape from his arse.

We did not go further than the verbal description of that one for validation.

tatt2dude says:

the finished design will have the words "forget me not" running through the banner as the flowers are forget me not's and the reasoning is ehhh.... that she wants to be remembered!

Hopefully this should get finished in a few weeks she is still suffering from the memory of those long straight lines but hopefully that should fade soon, the memory not the lines.

I will forward the finished works.

Favourite tattoo artist!? Thanks now I order Mangosauce on everything.... tastes great!

Jeff Blosser says:

A friend of mine asked me to find him stickers from bars in Thailand. I only found a few. I went into Voodoo and asked the deck serves about stickers. They didn't understand and then I said logo. One brightened up and said to wait. She came back with a dancer. Had her turn around and pulled down her bottoms a little. And there was the logo for Voodoo tattooed across the top of her ass. I was wondering if she did it for job security. I guess not because I haven't seen her since then.

Titiporn says:

class ! pure class !

Ernesto Ortega says:

THAT'S JUST A BAD WAY TO SPOIL A GREAT BUTT.

EO

Common Sense says:

David,
You are definetly a man after my own heart. I'm not normally a fan of heavily inked women, but I would most definetly make an exception in this case. I could easily think of two places I could probe underneath those Von Dutch hotpants.

Strangely though, I'm wondering what is delaying the much expected debate about gun control these past two articles were sure to inspire in light of recent events. Surely with my comment, the VT massacre, and the liberal pansy asses of the world who sometimes overpopulate MangoSauce; there is a firestorm of controversial debate lingering in the sidelines somewhere.

Honestly what fun would this site be if we weren't going at each others throats about something entirely off the topic of Thailand.

fbuom says:

CS,

Most of the 'liberal pansy asses' you mention are too busy out buying weapons to take care of what's his name to get into such a debate.

By the way, didn't they teach you the, "This is my rifle, this is my gun, this one's for fighting, this one's for fun" line when you were in the Marines?

Me? I'm philosophically torn. Hate the fact that firearms are so readily available to anyone, yet strongly believe in the Bill of Rights. It's a bitch.

What I'm waiting to hear is how the kid got firearms when under federal law, he didn't qualify. Obviously either a really thorough background check, or, "An unfortunate bureaucratic mess where the systems don't communicate with each other".

I'm enough of a libertarian (libertarian, not Libertarian) to believe systems not communicating can be a good thing.

I'd also like to hear how the NRA stands on the warrantless searches authorized by the Patriot act. Many of the same folks who go crazy about any threat to their right to own firearms are the same who would give up the rights in the other 9 amendments to stay safe. I guess their firearms won't be enough to keep the bad guys away.

Back to any preaching on gun control.... There'd be two choirs, everyone'd be preaching to their own, at best ignoring, at worst tiresomely sledging, the other.

Another descent into vitriol we don't need for a while.

fbuom
Good enough start?

Wombat says:

Common Sense

I take it from your above post that you are a believer in the saying "guns don't kill people, people do".

Common Sense says:

Fbuom,
"By the way, didn't they teach you the, "This is my rifle, this is my gun, this one's for fighting, this one's for fun" line when you were in the Marines?"-Fbuom

Of course they taught me that old ditty. The lovely tart pictured above offers the best of both worlds though.

The background check on that VT kid was obviously flawed. Unfortunately these flaws often go unnoticed until tragedy stikes. For example look at the disaster preparedness to Katrina and the NYPD and NYFD not even being able to communicate on the same radio frequency after 9/11. Now the flaw has been identified so measures can be taken to repair this.

Wombat,
"I take it from your above post that you are a believer in the saying "guns don't kill people, people do"."-Wombat

To illustrate my point I'll quote comedian Archie Bunker, "Would it make ya feel any better if they was pushed out of window's?"

I have killed people Wombat. It was my own concious decision to pull the trigger each and every time. The gun didn't make me do it, the president did ;)

FOINE says:

"She" has man hips?

Wombat says:

Common Sense

Please don't think for a minute that I am having a go at you about your service record.I have nothing but respect for those who serve their country. As a matter of fact yesterday was the Anzac Day public holiday here. It commemorates the landing of Australian, New Zealand & other Commonwealth troops on the Gallipoli penninsular in WW1. A monumental stuff up.

What I am getting at is the gun culture within American society. You are aware how potentially lethal these weapons are. Certainly there are people
who have legitimate reasons for owning a gun such as law enforcement officers, farmers & those who are members of gun clubs amongst others. They number among the responsible owners. Self defence doesn't answer. If your antagonist doesn't have a gun then you don't need one. Do you believe this lad at VT could have pushed 35 people out of windows? I think not.

In Australia a few years ago a sick individual called Martin Bryant killed nearly 40 people one afternoon. I believe he still holds the "record" for this type of crime. In response governments both state & federal passed a set of uniform laws restricting who could own & carry a gun, the type of guns available, ammunition & the storage of both guns & amminition. The Feaderal government then proceeded to buy the guns from those that were no longer allowed to own them. Periodically there is also an amnesty where people can hand in guns without fear of prosecution.

I understand that this would be a much more difficult task in US but if the will is there then a way can usually be found.

How many people must be slaughtered before enough is enough?

Common Sense says:

Wombat,

No offense taken about my service record. I take most intelligent criticism with a grain of salt. It's the uninformed idiots who piss me off.

"If your antagonist doesn't have a gun then you don't need one."-Wombat

I can distinctly recall three times in my childhood where my father had to defend our household with one of his firearms. One of these involved a criminal with a gun and the other two did not. Just to mention, I grew up in a well-to-do middle class neighborhood surrounded by drug and crime ridden ghetto's. A firearm for self defense does make a difference.

Now even more personally I had an incident a few weeks ago in which my firearm possibly saved my life and others. I live with a old Marine buddy, his wife, and newborn child at the moment while I am transitioning into my new life as a civilian. I had a fuck buddy from before my last tour in Japan whom I picked up again upon my return. While I was away she had a boyfriend who turned abusive, was promptly dumped, and became a stalker. He knew of me, hated me, but hadn't bothered her for two month's before my return.

We promptly picked up where we had left off upon my return and he somehow found out about this. He began intently stalking her again because of this and eventually found his way to my doorstep. BIG MISTAKE.

I knew of him and was prepared. Only four people knew where I lived and they were all female. One day a man showed up asking for me by name so my roomates wife came and got me without opening the door first. I thought this was odd and answered with a gun in hand. Guess who it was?

To make a long story short he nearly shit his pants at the site of a shotgun rigged for home defense pointing at him when the door opened and dropped the knife in his hand. I turned him over to the police, but he was released shortly afterward and will likely serve no jailtime.

What do you think might have happened if my roommates wife had opened the door first Wombat?

Its been nearly two month's since this happened without a peep from him. After the scare I gave him, do you think he is likely to return?

Honestly I hope he does, now that a history has been established, he won't walk away a second time.

Jonhnny come lately says:

Greetings all

This site is a pleasant discovery after 6 years in LOS (Land of Secrets) - David's articles are entertaining and I usually share his take on the sweet and sour experience of living here.

The humour on the site is a breath of fresh air…I think the one thing I miss most about home is the banter, I’ve laughed out loud every time I’ve looked at MS so far, there are some very witty regular posters…please keep it up.

About gun control (not so side-splitting) I agree with Wombat, it's shocking how easy it is for anyone to buy a gun in the U.S. - it wouldn't take much to tighten up regulations. It's not a cure to the problem of course, but it would be a step in the right direction.

Oh, and Foine, you're right - that's definitely not the sexiest arse I've ever seen in Thailand...

Kevin Tillman says:

Common Sense:

You openly boast about killing people.
Men? women? or children? or babies?
Armed or unarmed?

Now, if I didn't know that you and guys like you who openly boast about killing people were, in the vast majority of cases, totally full of shit, I'd be offended.
You're on every barstool and lord knows you're harmless enough.

Look at this for an asinine comment as phony combat veteran wannabe CS patronizes a mild-mannered "Wombat" with a phrase right out of the infamous Nazi Nuremberg Defense:

"I have killed people Wombat. It was my own concious decision to pull the trigger each and every time. The gun didn't make me do it, the president did ;)"

Well, Heil, fucking, Hitler to you, too.

Are we talking about unarmed civilians trapped in a house with nowhere to run? Or are we talking about women and children in their beds you murdered while following your "rules of engagement"?

Or are we talking about my brother, Pat?

You need to get a job doing something other than cooking up whopping lie after whopping lie about yourself and posting them on the internet.

Sincerely
Kevin Tillman

Common Sense says:

Kevin,
For starter's its in extremely bad taste to use someone else's name and imply that you are this person.

You must really be naive and highly susceptible to the rantings of people like Rosie O'Donnel. Do you really believe people in the military just wake up in the morning and say "Hey guys, lets go whack some woman and kiddy's today. Sound's like fun, eh."

We are human too moron. Most of us do have compassion, even when doing an ugly job. That was not boasting up above. I was illustrating a point to Wombat that people must make a concious decision to kill, the gun is just a tool much the same as a knife, hammer, or car could be used to kill. The latter part of my statement about the president was in jest. Yeah I am sadistic enough to mix humor with talk of killing.

Please respond in a more coherent manner using your own thoughts rather than regurgitating something you heard on a Sean Penn interview. You are allowed to think for yourself.

fbuom says:

CS,

Here ya go.........

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/26/opinion/
edguns.php

Enjoy.

fbuom

Kevin Tillman says:

Common Sense:

Now, after a thorough review your frequent posts on this blog I can't see how you feel you are in any position to question anything I may have said in my post.
You feel otherwise, I'm sure.

More importantly, I cannot see how you feel you are in any position to critique the coherence of another person's post when your own reasoning processes are as flawed and narrowly referenced as those of a high school student. (C plus)

You feel otherwise, I'm sure.

You post as Common Sense (I assume that is not your name)

Most posters on this forum and most others post by screen names. I fail to see how this contravenes the boundaries of good taste.

While I have the highest regard for actor Sean Penn, I don't recall making a reference to him. You (obviously) have your reasons.

While you seek to connect me with assailable personages such as O'Donnell and Penn I will remain Kevin Tillman.

(I suggest you tune in on my testimony before the committee)

You might be surprised to know that our government holds you in the same stead (a tool) as you do your weapon. If you are proud of that, it is you who needs to start thinking for yourself.

Smear as much misinformation and puffery on my accusations as you wish. These smears are yours. I do not take them for my own.

Finally, you claim to have killed people. You boast and joke and boast again about that on this forum.
Do not presume to lecture me on matters of taste.

I stand by everything I posted on April 26th at 8:59.

Your post just came to my attention during a search I was making.I have to much to do to enter into a poorly reasoned "disagreement of belief" argument with you in this Bangkok Forum.

Sincerely
Pat Tillman's brother, Kevin

Common Sense says:

Kevin,
I say that to post by that name is in bad taste because I do not believe you are the real Kevin Tillman. Using the name of a real person to make a point in a forum that often covers the saucier side of life brings discredit upon this person. If you are in fact the real Kevin Tillman, I apologize.

The reason I think your a fraud is because of the heavily left wing liberal stance you take which is reminiscent of something Rosie O'Donnel or Sean Penn would say. You don't speak as if you have ever seen a war zone or know of the dangers faced there. The real Kevin would know and would likely not lay such heavy criticism upon soldiers. His beef has more to do with the mismanagement of his brothers death, which was a monumental fuckup by officers trying to cover their asses.

fbuom says:

CS,

Jumping into your exchanges with Kevin Tillman, my suspicions are raised with the comment starting, "You might be surprised to know that our government holds you in the same stead (a tool) as you do your weapon."

Any half-smart, half-thinking G.I. at any level knows that's true. Any G.I. on the front-lines is deployed just like trucks, rifles, etc. I give you credit for being at least half-smart, half-thinking (well, you _did_ choose the Marines, so I can't go beyond 'half';-).

So was Pat Tillman. So should be Kevin Tillman. It's the follow-on that's the kicker, "If you are proud of that, it is you who needs to start thinking for yourself."

Is Kevin Tillman, the real one, saying he is not proud of his service to his country? Or that he is not proud of what his brother did? Most dis-affected ex-G.I.s I've met are dis-affected with their leadership, but proud of the positive things they accomplished.

I will concede that the real Kevin Tillman may have had a change of heart after the incident with his brother. But my impression, too, is that his beef was with the management of the incident, not his brother's (and his own!) participation in the 'action' that resulted in his brothers death. And while the situation in Afghanistan seems to be deteriorating, the 'action' there has never really been considered a mistake.

Oh, and Kevin, I've been anti-Iraq 'action' since before the Congress authorized it. But I've also done my time with 'Uncle'. Fortunately, I've never had a human in my sights and never had to make the choices CS has made. But I have the greatest respect those who have and for the choice Pat Tillman made.

Hey, Wombat, I get the impression Kevin's depiction of you as, 'mild mannered' doesn't quite hit the mark - I seem to recall a remark you made in a post advising against doing bodily harm to what's his name. Or is my memory playing tricks?

CS,
On another, related, note: Have you seen this, yet?
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/26/world/
middleeast/26cnd-Cropper.html?ex=
1335240000&en=5566355c7c5c1974&ei=
5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

A U.S. Army Lt Col publicly taking his superiors to task for their handling Iraq, etc. At the very end, he's quoted as saying something like the average private who loses a rifle currently risks a greater punishment than a general who loses a war.

He doesn't name names on purpose. He sees the problem as systemic.

fbuom

Keith Summer says:

Hey Common Sense
The closest thing you got to the Vietnam War, was watching the Rambo's Movies.

Elliot says:

Common Sense,

You really are a pathetic human being if you have to post about killing other human beings on the internet. Anyone in the military is expected to kill others in the line of duty, but to brag about it on the internet really is sickening.

The World is a dangerous place with people like you in it. You people make me sick.

Just SHUT UP is in future ok asshole....

Common Sense says:

Keith Summer,
I wasn't even alive during Vietnam, what point are you trying to make.

Elliot,
I wasn't bragging, I was using personal experience to illustrate a point. I could easily make a case that the world is a safer place because there are people like me in it. Maybe you should use examples to illustrate your point also, because with that idiotic statement you are only showing your ass. On the flip side of this, if you think I have any regrets about taking the lives of terrorists and criminals you are sorely mistaken.

fbuom,
Intelligently written piece, I'm a bit drunk at the moment and will look further into your post in the morning. I'm sure something in there entails an intelligent response, which I am not capable of making at the moment.

Wombat says:

fbuom

I did have a chuckle over the "mild mannered" remark. I have been called a lot of things over the years, almost exclusively non complimentary, but never that before. A sign of maturiy & advancing years perhaps. Sigh.

I am sure you are aware that I despise he who shall not be referred to for what he did. Criticism & highlighting errors &/or misleading statements is 1 thing. Dismantling a mans life & earning capacity something entirely different. If it happened to him you can bet he would be howling from the moon about it.

I advocate non violence against him because I find it more entertaining to observe his descent into madness from afar. I am also confident I know what is in store for him. He has a tiny business in a niche market that he has identified. Niche markets dry up. Then what? An attempt to find another market?
He has been at it for 5 years & is already struggling. Hasn't made a lot of money either. Bankruptcy beckons.

Mind you I am honest enough to admit that if he walked into the same bar I was in on my next trip to LOS I couldn't guarantee that all havoc wouldn't break loose resulting in him seeking medical assistance right after my speedy departure from the scene. Not that there is any chance of that as I do not go to Pattaya.

Dicer says:

What I consider to be a good stance is one that empathises with the locals and reveals their way of looking at themselves and the world in ways comprehensible and amusing to readers - something ethnographers utterly fail to do. The more I read local history, say written by arabs or generally locals the less I'm interested in the much overwrought eurocentric twaddle.

The homo luden Iraq scorecard:

3000 Merkins dead
600000 Ay-raabs dead

I think the wannabe Hitlers in D.C. - conjure a picture akin to the Dancing Itos in sermon - are aiming for a much higher number.

Thats 300 Ay-raab for every Merkin. Is that what a Merkin life is worth on the luden seesaw?

Oh and 1 trillion dollars spent so far. 1 TRILLION SPENT and counting. That is 34,000 dollars in the account of every Merkin.

What a lovely state of affairs we are in. However, as good ole Winston "Arabs are dungs" Churchill said our brethren across the Atlantic seem to concur that shooting dungs does not create any feeling of guilt...far from it...

It is all about imagining the world from another people's point of view. Of course some good guessing is at hand. For instance some of us try to point out that the Thai saos were not forced to work in the bars but instead the truth is the old farm is boooooring. At one time I threw in snakes for the Danish readers. Cobras....of course the sao just eat the cobras but the point was to show how working in a field all day for nothing is not good. The heat, the muck...then the awful neighbours and the relatives gossiping...nightmare. On the other hand is stage queen with adoring geezers, air con, a comprehensive mamasan, snacks and best of all all the looney girls you work with who have amazing stories...on and on. Actually most girls in junior high can hardly wait to bolt school, which they hate and get that gogo bar for some lust and real cash.

In the same loose neural vessle some would respond that Merkins are not totally responsible for the slaughter of 600,000 Arabs, the senseless kino Ayraab warriors and their increasingly crafty weapons are. The Merkins are responsible for not so much as opening as pissing all over the box purportedly owned by poor Pandora. Brits here are affecting to be Hephaestus.

Of course no one is business minded enough to follow my idea, sent to Pelosi and Murta: to take the trillion and set up each alqaeda and insurgent a KFC franchise in Argentina. Simple and only 2 billion dollars it would take.

A very tricky business empathy.

Wombat says:

Common Sense

You answered my post with some examples from your own life to justify your opinions. That was fair enough as our personal experiences go a long way towards forming our opinions.

Before you come to any conclusions I can assure you I am no left wing, tree hugging peacenik. In the instances you outlined involving your father I cannot, in all conscience, claim I would have done anything differently given the same options. I am all for defending home & family.

I have had an interesting & varied life. It is debatable whether trouble found me or I found it. I have been threatened with a knife on 4 separate occasions.

The most terrifying was when my darling ex was intent on removing a part of me that I am very fond of ala Lorena Bobbitt. Thankfully I was able to talk her out of it.

On another occasion when I was 17 the father of a 14yo girl I was seeing followed me after an argument with my mates & I to the car park of the local McDonalds where he pulled a knife. At this point in time my mates all decided that a Big Mac was in order & promptly made themselves scarce. I wasn't to worried as I figured there were to many people around & he was bluffing. Correctly. Still, I didn't take kindly to this. I picked my moment & with the help of 2 other friends we paid him a visit & encouraged him to move out of the area. As his house was full of dope he wasn't in a position to argue with us. He was eventually killed on the Mildura to Adelaide Rd while delivering a van full of dope the same night as his parents were executed. Good riddance as I have no time for drug dealers.

On the other 2 occasions my antagonists decided to back down, thankfully, as my blood was up & I was in no mood to.

Over the years I have been in situations were I have used a baseball bat, steel bar & a golf club to defend myself & my property. One night I was delighted to discover that my poor skills with a golf club were restricted to the golf course. As my clubs are now locked in my shed I will have to use a pool cue should the need ever arise.

In regards to your recent visitor I would like to believe that I would have left it up to the police. I say this as someone who has little faith in them. If I was seriously angered by him then I would have taken to him with a cue or a cricket bat while waiting for the police to arrive. I would even throw a bucket of water over him so he could enjoy another beating.

My concern is that he pulled a knife. You pulled a shotgun. What if he decides to escalate the situation.

Some 30 years ago I was at a local football game. This was a newly developed area & the shopping mall across the road was still having the finishing touches done. A man finished work for the day, got in his car, started it & got blown up. We went out of the ground to see what the noise was about & I still remember seeing little pieces of him in the car park. A school mate of mine claimed to have seen it from a couple of hundred metres away. The man responsible was having an affair with the victims wife. You have quite probably seen worse. My point is be careful it doesn't happen to you.

What I am getting at is there were instances in my life that I would have produced a gun if I had one. Possibly used it. Yet I remain opposed to the availability of guns except for limited circumstances. I know distance has a tendency to lend enlightenment to the view.

In Australia we banned all handguns, automatic & I believe semi automatic guns. There are a very few exceptions such as in the case of handguns for competition shooters. Obviously there are some still available if you wish to associate with the likes of OMCG members but both guns & ammunition are prohibitively expensive as a result.

You mention that hammers & cars can be used to kill people. Agreed. But 35 people in a comparatvely short period of time? Hardly. On the subject of cars mine is capable of reaching 220kph & even faster if I wished to modify it yet the speed limit here is 100kph. Just because it can go as fast doesn't mean I have a right to drive that fast. Governments regularly legislate to protect the lives of their citizens. Though a case can be made that in the instance of speeding fines they are addicted to the revenue.

The US is a very different society to Australia. The NRA is a well organised lobby group. With 50 states all protecting their rights within the federal system & with the 2 political parties governing the states consensus would be difficult to attain. Then there is the part guns played in the settlement of the west. These are not criticisms but merely observations.

Common I posed a question in my last post that you omitted to answer. Perhaps you considered it rhetorical. Maybe you thought it frivolous. Or it could be that the answer doesn't sit comfortably with your views so I will ask another. What did those young people at Virginia Tech do to deserve their fate? Or those at Columbine, the young children at that Scottish school some years ago or at Port Arthur for that matter.

I don't think you & I are going to agree on this. But maybe a day will come when you, or enough people who currently share your opinion, do & these appalling crimes will become a thing of the past.

Kevin Tillman says:

Common Sense:

I regard with some amusement the ease, the presumptuousness and the pomposity with which you early on in this forum just “assumed” the role of “Professor” Common Sense.
Like Mr. Clean..
Like Mr. Insider.
Like Mr. Know-it-All.
Like Mr. You Won’t Have the Truth Until I finish My Story. . . . just stick with me and I’ll clue you in – no one else is worth listening to. They’re all liberals and they’re all un-American.
You’ll come to love “dangerous me” when you get to know “clever me”.
Pity is more like it.

Pat Tillman was an intellectual. Perhaps you’d have smeared him as a liberal.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051024/zirin
I don’t think Pat ever killed anyone but he was a real American hero.
He gave up a lot more in his search for the truth than you would ever know.
You claim to have killed people (I strongly doubt this. But you are a gun nut.)

Your self-appropriation of this chimerical characteristic of “common sense” is laughable at best. You would be much better served by something like “Been there-Done that” Except that we both know you are making most of this stuff up.
Most of it.
The fact that you’ve been “putting your myth about for nigh-on two years” is neither here nor there. Like the Viet pseudo-vet, in the neighbourhood bar, you are, as one poster has said quite pathetic in a “hail fellow well met” sort of way.

Pat knew the Iraq campaign was wrong.
He was also beginning to have very strong thoughts about the so-called “War on Terror.” Pat Tillman was a liberal and even though he was a big time jock Pat was a voracious reader. Chomsky, Robert Baer, Michael Klare; Pat had read them all. And he was still like all those you smear as liberals reading and learning and expressing his views when he was killed.

The Tillman family and many good Americans more issues with the military's “handling“ of Pat’s death than its mismanagement by the US Army PR brigade and the generals who are trying to cover the account of Pat’s possible murder.

Pat Tillman was a combat soldier but he was also an outspoken opponent of the American foreign policy that you, from your posts, see as our country’s role.
Pat didn’t see it this war as having anything to do with a role for America..
And Pat Tillman started to talk about this.
I strongly suspect that he made his beliefs known among his fellow enlistees and he may just have incurred this “friendly fire” as a result of his beliefs.
It is the US Army’s “mis-management smoke-screen” that first must be cleared.

Then and only then, will this conspiracy of silence surrounding Pat’s murder be lifted and will his murder be properly investigated.
The extent of how far the Army and the media will go to cover up the truth is clearly illustrated by the Jessica Lynch myth.

In any case you need to examine this information more thoroughly instead of hiding behind that puffy little bravado teddy bear of yours as you re-enter civilian life

“if you think I have any regrets about taking the lives of terrorists and criminals you are sorely mistaken”
Those dead are rarely terrorists and criminals and if they are we rarely get to see them.
And if we do we are told that they were the bad guys and that killing them "fell under the rules”. Read the post by Dicer.

His post is not addressed to you but I suspect Dicer is speaking to you. Read those stats. 600,000 is a conservative number.
Thieves murderers and baby rapists ? All? Terrorists? Whose country is it, anyway,??
No one in uniform is going to paint any of these "dead Arabs" as innocent, are they?

But who can really believe for a minute that the boy-soldiers we send out there today are any better at soldiering than they were at doing the civilian jobs they left.
They make mistakes all the time.

It is famously familiar military truism that we rarely see those we kill in a firefight.
Combat vets report that aside from the “earthier discomforts” of high-adrenaline combat situations, a worse truism is that you rarely get to see who you’re killing.
You rarely get confirmation that they were enemy combatants.

“Just pull the trigger soldier, we’ll tell you who they were and what they did and why they had to die.”

That is unless you are a machine gunner and your job is to "retire the combatant" after questioning. . . . somewhere out there in the desert, day or night, in cold blood.

Then you know, Common Sense.
Then you know.

Sincerely
Kevin

fbuom says:

Wombat,

Totally agree about what's his name. Let him twist in the wind - figuratively only (since that's a hanging expression). "What goes around, comes around." So true, and so the right way to deal with him.

On the road, battery's dying, better go.

fbuom

Common Sense says:

Kevin,
It is now blatantly obvious that you are not the real Kevin Tillman.

"I strongly suspect that he made his beliefs known among his fellow enlistees and he may just have incurred this “friendly fire” as a result of his beliefs."-Kevin the fraud.

The real Kevin was in Afghanistan with Pat. He would know exactly what beliefs he was sharing with his fellow enlistees. To imply he was murdered because of this is asinine. 90% of the soldiers there think Bush is a fuckin idiot (me included) and this entire war has been mismanaged from the get go. Iraq is a clusterfuck that shouldn't have happened to begin with and should have been managed better afterwards. Unfortunately it wasn't. The question is what do we do now. Pull out and let another terrorist state reminiscent of pre9/11 Afghanistan flourish or stay the course. If we stay the course its going to be a few years before this is resolved because there is moron who must be replaced in the White House first. If we pull out we'll be back in a few years.

What to do, what to do.

Its easy to use hindsight and look be critical of what has happened in the past. Now try to use some foresight and come up with a workable solution to the situation we have been dealt. That my friend is a much more difficult task.

Dicer has some good insights into the pulling out method in a thread over at BKKGF, the staying the course method involves waiting another two years and praying somebody competent enters the White House before any serious source of resolution can be discussed.

Dream on about these imaginary machine gun killing fields or at least post some evidence.

I will ask you again to adopt another handle and quit masquerading as Kevin Tillman.

Common Sense says:

Wombat,
I see that even though we are from different countries and have different views we have many similar life experiences. I have had knifes and guns pulled on me on several occasions. I have used a variety of means to come out alive to include talking sense into the person (my preferred means), violence (least prefered), and just getting the fuck out of there. Luckily I've made the right decision in each case and all escaped without serious injury (I'm speaking of my personal life, not professional here). That being said, all these instances happened away from my home. To answer your question:

"My concern is that he pulled a knife. You pulled a shotgun. What if he decides to escalate the situation."-Wombat

I do not carry firearms outside my home unless going to a shooting range or hunting. I do have firearms for home defense purposes though. I have intentionally modified these two weapons to look as intimidating as possible to create a physcological advantage over an intruder to limit the likelyhood of having to actually shoot them and thereby resolving the situation in a responsible fashion. I also know tactics to further increase this physcological advantage and further decrease the likelyhood of violence. I have taken every responsible measure to decrease the chance of having to use force that I can. That being said, if my opponent still decides to escalate the situation, its not going to end pretty. I'm of the mindset that you cross all boundries by intentionally fucking with a man in his own household. My reaction away from home would be different.

In the case of my visitor, I don't know what his intentions were. He had a knife in his hand when I opened the door but the blade was closed. He told the cops he just wanted to talk to me. Why the need for the knife. The only way I could have found out was if I had not been holding the shotgun when I opened the door, thereby giving him the advantage.

I apologize for overlooking your original question. There were two I did not answer because I assumed they were rhetorical and self explanatory (you even answered one yourself). I'll address all of them now.

Do you believe this lad at VT could have pushed 35 people out of windows? No

How many people must be slaughtered before enough is enough? I don't know the answer to this, apparently the number is greater than 33.

What did those young people at Virginia Tech do to deserve their fate? Absolutely nothing. This was senseless violence at its worst.

I will say I believe in tougher gun laws and more restrictive measures and prodcedures for obtaining one and regulating who can. I also favor requiring an educational course before one can own a firearm. I do not favor bans as restrictive as Australia though. Responsible people should be allowed to own guns for recreational or home defense purposes. I do see a need for reform on both sides of the issue here. Even the NRA does but refuses to give ground because they fear that allowing legislation will eventually lead to over restrictive measures and bans. As with most issues, the true answer lies with compromise on behalf of the far left and extreme right to reach a WORKABLE SOLUTION.

Kevin Tillman says:

Common Sense:
Thank you for your reply. This, however, will be my last message on this board.

No amount of prodding by me or anyone else will get through your shell-like resistance to the folly of your thinking here. You seem to be enjoying yourself so I'll leave you to it. You should be left alone to mature.

Your occasional gratuitous and references and forays into the SE Asian hot-dogger scene do little to conceal your real message on this board.

With the above exception, whenever you get into it with other posters on here, you invariably offer US armed intervention up as the sole saving grace in a troubled world. You hint at it, you threaten it, you joke about it, you revel in it.

But you never, ever question it do you.

Pretty much the entirety of your posts and indeed your entire blog presence here (with the afore-mentioned token sex references to stay in the game here) screams an innocently murderous fascist arrogance.
I see a child soldier of sorts. I get emotional these days , though. It may be an over-reaction.

In your posts, you cherry-pick and you flit from point to point attacking only the surmises and, of course, the speaker. You smear, you denigrate, you pontificate and you bluster, you brag, you boast, you dismiss.

But you never question, You never concede with a "Geez, man I hadn't really thought of it that way before. Gimme some time to incorporate this with my biases. I just may have been wrong about that.
Never

I'll bet you felt better after you typed those words.

"90% of the soldiers there think Bush is a fuckin idiot (me included) and this entire war has been mismanaged from the get go"

Hard to believe that they were typed by the same man who posted this:

"I have killed people Wombat. It was my own concious decision to pull the trigger each and every time. The gun didn't make me do it, the president did ;)"

Dicer, with whom you seem to have a rapport, takes time to speak with you, to try to reason with you by allegory and by peshar. Your replies to him aside from the token "you have some good points there" never address one single word the other 70% of what Dicer or anybody else (for that matter) posts in rebuttal or in disagreement with your biases.

For example, you simply ignored or sidestepped all the points I made about Pat's views and about his feelings about his readings and about his bravery. No comment at all on his mother's claims.
None. No comment at all on the fact that Pat would have been smeared by you as a liberal.
None.
You never once commented on the elephant in the room. Everyone knows that Kevin Tillman was with Pat when he was murdered. Your offering up of that as proof that I am not who I say I am is a dreadful slider. The room is too smart to buy that as a point for you.
Your justification? Your unprovable claim that I am not Pat Tillman. I can much more easily prove that you have no common sense.
You say that liberals are using the benefit of hindsight? No. They opposed this war all along for reasons they proved all along which have been grudgingly surrendered by Bush & Co, one after another and then "painted" as hindsight (Bet you won't address that point either) It doesn't matter. You're set in your ways. That's what's sad.

It has no bearing on the fact that the Tillmans, all of them,including Pat, have been lied to from the beginning for reasons I gave you in the previous post.

You want some common sense, Common Sense? The "Tillman's" are America, Common Sense. How's that for common sense, Common Sense?

But you *will* cherry-pick won't you.
That's OK. This is what the swift-Boaters did when they preached to the cheap seats.( And thank god Kerry got sidelined. This had to come to a head. Bush & Co was the man to do that, for sure.

But "cherry pick" is what you must do as well to "stay your course."
Hold your nose and cherry-pick.
Doesn't sound all that efficient to me.

Why do you do it, then?
Because these days you can't find anyone else to listen.

I see the reaction of the other posters to what you hold so dear. They, as I, are trying their best. Stop fighting them and explore their points instead of simply dismissing them as uninformed, irrelevant or their reasoning and examples as spurious.

But you can't. For the same reason your silly PNAC attitude has destroyed any hope for peace in our time you can't let this go. You have too much invested.

Your post:
"The question is what do we do now."

Who asked you? Who asked you?

"Dream on about these imaginary machine gun killing fields or at least post some evidence"
Talk to some vets. Real vets.
Google: Iraq Death Highway
Google: the taking of prisoners in combat: battlefield impracticalities

And finally:
I will ask you again to adopt another handle and quit masquerading as Common Sense.

Sincere goodbye
from
Kevin Tillman
brother of Pat who was an ardent and enthusiastic admirer of Noam Chomsky and other liberal activists and thinkers.

Peace brother.

Common Sense says:

Kevin,
Since your so adamant in claiming to be Pat's real brother I will ask you one simple question that you cannot find in the media. What was the name of Pat's Company Gunnery Sergeant?

The real Kevin was there with him and would know the answer. I have the means to find out. Add credence to your claims, you fuckin phony.

Somali Mong says:

Wise words Mr. Tillman...and very true. Common Sense got put in his place...and about time too!

How d'ya like those apples CS?

PS. I once used a catapult on someone: does this make me a vet too????????

moubf says:

Kevin,

Don't know that you'll read this.... Doesn't much matter. You're not 'listening', either.

To start, lots of people try to steer this blog - you know that you can use any name you choose when you post (as demonstrated above). As a result, NO identity is trusted, EVERYONE's credibility is tested. On a blog with as much anonymity as this one's, that's the only way.

While the blog's orientation is towards the seedier side of Thailand, some real debates of real world issues have occurred here - by participants who have at least some international standing. I don't include CS or myself there.

On to my real comments. Please remember, I've identified myself as a liberal, opposed to Iraq before the congress authorized it.

You haven't convinced me you are the real Kevin Tillman, either.

Each post, you 'sound' less and less like a brother who was in the same platoon.

As far as the rest of your most recent post goes, with the possible exception of references to who and what Pat Tillman was, it's as big a load as anything you believe CS has put out here.

I'm offended in particular by, "Who asked you? Who asked you?". Anyone criticising something owes an alternative. So, as CS asked, give us your alternative. Perhaps Dicer will be kind enough to critique it for the rest of us.

Or is your inability to offer a well-thought alternative your reason for running and hiding? We can wait a week, or so. Take your time.

fboum
By the way, which will it be? Not knowing who you are shooting at in a firefight? Or an intentional frag during a firefight? Hard to be both.

Ghost Writer says:

How did we get from a bar girl's ass to this steaming pile of verbal diarrhea.

I'm a newby to this site and looking over the posts some of you guy's think you are real wordsmiths, think about it, if you could write half as good as you think you can you would be writing bestsellers.

Armchair Shakespears........love it !

dutchpickle says:

Wow...

I was just going to ask for a follow up pic so we could see how tatude handles the cover up on the barrel

Sorry about Pat and all the others that lost their lives over there.

peace

Pants Elk says:

Just thought I'd swing by the old patch and see what's up ... uh huh ... uh huh ...

*blacks out momentarily*

Common Sense says:

You know I was just going to let this shit go but who am I kidding. It goes against my nature.

Fbuom,
I'm glad you picked up on his inability to offer alternatives. That is the whole point of these discussions is it not? Phony Kevin fails to comprehend that two people with opposing viewpoints can have a meaningful discussion and come to a workable compromise. I have many liberal views myself, but generally lean more right wing. I'm even open to voting for a democrat in the next election depending on who the nominees are. My only reservation about this is that I believe the US political system works better when a Republican is president and the Democrats control congress; or vice versa. The US system is designed to be one of checks and balances. Unfortunately when one party controls the Presidency, congress, and senate, a routine of rubber stamping initiatives takes hold and important matters recieve little discussion, oversight, and accountability. I believe this lead to Iraq becoming the clusterfuck that it is. Bush has now dug himself so deep with his idiocy nothing can be accomplished until he is out of office.

Kevin,
You asked for it, so I'll give it to ya.

I'll start with your identity. You masquerading as Pat's brother stikes a personal discord with me. Undoubtedly your motive for doing so is an attempt to add credibility to your arguements by falsely establishing a personal relationship. Your downfall in doing so is displayed by your failure to realise we can see straight through this. You've obviously been a long time reader of this blog since you know of past conversations I've had with others and think you have me pegged as freeloader with nothing meaningful to say on the subject of Thailand other than pussy references.

I've never hid the fact that I've only visited a few times. I give my opinion on Thailand where I have personal knowledge. I do generally stay out of expat and cultural matters because I am ignorant on these subjects. Who the hell would I be to talk as if I know anything on the subject.

As for my handle being Common Sense, it was chosen because my first post to this blog was to a Limey bastard displaying the same amount of logic as Keith Summers and I thought this name would piss him off even more. I never bothered to change it afterwards since I had established my identity here. Nothing more to it than that. On another note, I've only been posting here since last August, not the two years that you claim.

Now onto your other ramblings.

"That is unless you are a machine gunner and your job is to "retire the combatant" after questioning. . . . somewhere out there in the desert, day or night, in cold blood."-Phony Kevin

You statement here claims there are US death squads that cold bloodedly and secretly execute prisoners after questioning in the Iraqi desert.

Your evidence of this is a link to the Death Highway and blogsites discussing the merits of taking prisoners. Quite reminiscent of Kasman's Alexxa ratings I think. Falls drastically short of making a point. The death highway was in the 91 war. US forces pursued retreating Iraqi's and bombed them. Basic military strategy. Exploit your enemy when there weak and vulnerable. That's how wars are won dipshit. The pilots had no way of knowing who were mutineers and who would have fought against Saddam. Again you use hindsight to criticize decisions made in the moment. Nothing to back up you death squad ascertation though. Try again.

Pat's beliefs and his mother have no bearing on this conversation. They are entitled to their views as much as you or I. Would I have called him a liberal? Yes. Would I have smeared him? Only if he displayed your level of ignorance. I have no problems with moderates on either side, its the extremists that piss me off.

You slam me as being thick headed, closed minded, and set in my ways and then immediately afterwards disregard my question to offer up a solution to this crisis. You have none other than bitching. I'm sure you read my post to Prufrock about "Men of Action", it would serve you well to reread this.

Ah fuck it, I can go on and on about this all night but what good is it. Your points cannot stand on their own, and any intelligent person can see that.

I have no problem with opposing views, but will offer opposing opinions. That is how meaningful discussion is stimulated to achieve a WORKABLE SOLUTION.

tatt2dude says:

Khun G has been missing in action for two weeks now, if I ever get to shade and color the piece I will gladly update David with the results.

As for the debate sparked, I served Queen and country.

There are some things that you just dont talk about, unless your amongst comrades.

Something I learnt in my five years of service.

Is it wrong of me to change the subject and mention that I once beat Marvin Hagler in a fist fight over a bar girl in Nana?

He went for his gun when he was down and all I will say is that Khun G is not the first owner of a "piece" in the rectal area at my hands.

The voices in my head made me do it, I am not sure if any of them are the president but now you mention it one did sound like Clinton ;-)

Noam Chomsky says:

Common Sense:

Your arrogance really knows no bounds whatsoever, does it.

What on Earth has the veracity of "Kevin Tillman's" blog handle to do with your complete and utter failure to properly address any of the very valid points this poster has raised?

If you are so desperate or naive as to posit on this board that the mere assumption of a screen name negates the validity of a post, if you are actually going to hang your hat on that, you truly are a dangerous person.

April 26, 2007 8:59 PM
"CS patronizes a mild-mannered "Wombat" with a phrase right out of the infamous Nazi Nuremberg Defense" when you said:
"I have killed people Wombat. It was my own concious decision to pull the trigger each and every time. The gun didn't make me do it, the president did ;)"

but then somewhere else you say that Bush is an idiot. What's it gonna be Common Sense?

and again on April 28, 2007 5:42 PM

Pat Tillman was an intellectual. Perhaps you’d have smeared him as a liberal.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051024/zirin
I don’t think Pat ever killed anyone but he was a real American hero. He gave up a lot more in his search for the truth than you would ever know.

How do you reconcile this with your constant and consistent claims and implications that people like Pat are liberals and not worth listening to?

then April 28, 2007 5:42 PM

I strongly suspect that he (Pat Tillman) made his beliefs known among his fellow enlistees and he may just have incurred this “friendly fire” as a result of his beliefs. It is this, the US Army’s “mis-management" smoke-screen that first must be cleared.
The Tillman family and many good Americans have more issues with the military's “handling“ of Pat’s death than its mismanagement by the US Army PR brigade and the generals who are trying to cover the account of Pat’s possible murder.

and then April 29, 2007 1:13 PM

I'll bet you felt better after you typed those words.

"90% of the soldiers there think Bush is a fuckin idiot (me included) and this entire war has been mismanaged from the get go"

Hard to believe that they were typed by the same man who posted this:

"I have killed people Wombat. It was my own concious decision to pull the trigger each and every time. The gun didn't make me do it, the president did ;)"

and more importantly
You say that liberals are using the benefit of hindsight? No. They opposed this war all along for reasons they proved all along which have been grudgingly surrendered by Bush & Co, one after another and then "painted" as hindsight (Bet you won't address that point either) It doesn't matter. You're set in your ways. That's what's sad.

Come on, Common Sense. I want an answer to that one.
Your "by-passes" no longer pass.

and finally

It has no bearing on the fact that the Tillmans, all of them, including Pat, have been lied to from the beginning for reasons I gave you in the previous post.

You want some common sense, Common Sense? The "Tillman's" ARE America, Common Sense. How's that for common sense, Common Sense?

Your thoughts, perhaps? Something? Anything? Perhaps some of your swift boating buddies will chime in and do the back-up thing now?
(Come on, Swifties, Man down! Man down!)

But you don't address it. No you, to this, with a dismissive bellow, you post:

"Ah fuck it, I can go on and on about this all night but what good is it. Your points cannot stand on their own, and any intelligent person can see that."

I also see that when you got into trouble with this poster called Kevin Tillman, there were a few standard, stock in trade, ad hominem smears heaped by you and others on the poster. Typical Swifty rhetoric. No one is fooled anymore.

Your blanket dismissal of all that he said by virtue of the grave sin of having posted under a very effective screen name. That's how they went after Joe Wilson wasn't it.
More Swifty rhetoric.

It is you and Americans like you (as opposed to Americans like me) who seek to absolve themselves of any responsibility for this horrendous slaughter in Iraq.
For this complete and utter waste of blood and treasure: a war which the vast majority of Americans were duped into by a series of fabulous lies and outright fabrications. They were duped into believing this war was necessary. Duped by a criminal regime in a failed state.

Politician after politician, general after general, the CIA, the FBI, close presidential advisers, person after person, every day another revelation.

STILL you persist.

And that failed state is our country, Common Sense.
The United States of America

Wake up and smell the coffee.
(that's Abigail van Buren bye the way, Who gives a shit? Just wake up and smell the coffee!)

fbuom says:

CS,

I agree with your view on separation of powers. Once upon a time in the west, I worked for my state's GOP organization (as a go'fer). I probably have more in common with the old-style 'moderate' Republican than I do with Democrats. But the only way to convince the current GOP leadership of my distaste for their policies is to vote the other way. I feel my party was stolen from me.:-(

As for Kevin, the more I read what he's written - not just at MS - the more I'm inclined to believe 'our' Kevin might actually be the real thing. His Truthdig posting is much like what's been written here.

That does not, however, change what I think of his last post. Even the Truthdig post leaves a lot to be desired, in my opinion. Huge signs he's hurting - who wouldn't, under the circumstances - and I think the hurt has colored his logic. His other posts have lots of emotion, not much logic. Perhaps with time......

For one who attacks you for not knowing you are just another 'resource', he seems awfully ignorant of the fact that part of any war effort has been propaganda for the home front and activities to make the folks at home feel they're contributing, too.

Look at how the guys who raised the flag at Iwo Jima were treated.

And propaganda, of course, is just PR and marketing for political purposes. 'Manufactured' reality is part of the stock-in-trade. Photo-ops, thirty-second sound bites, whatever it takes.

Wars are fought for political reasons, battles are fought for military reasons. The political reason is _always_ domination of one kind or another - power.

When women volunteer for suicide bombings, can those who have been fooled be blamed for distrusting women?

When children are used as decoys to get car bombs past check-point guards, can those who have been fooled be blamed for distrusting even children?

The decision to go to war should not be made lightly - or, as in the current Iraq situation, for the wrong reasons.

Unfortunately, once the decision to go to war is made, 'collateral damage' is inevitable. Sherman said it well to Atlanta: "You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it...."

Full text at http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/sherman/
sherman-to-burn-atlanta.html

I am not a pacifist, but I am very much for war as a last resort for that reason.

I could rant on about going into Iraq, but that's a dead horse.

I will take exception to Dicer's tone above, however. I infer from his statements and tone that all the Iraqi deaths were directly caused by US action. In one sense that is true - US action provided the opportunity that allows Iraqi to kill Iraqi. But only the opportunity. It was the choice of _adults_ to take advantage of that opportunity.

If we leave now, we would be even more accountable for providing adults with even greater opportunities for violence. We should leave, but we can only leave if something else provides stability.

Ideals are wonderful things. Idealists in positions of power - a disaster.

fbuom

George Tenet says:

Common Sense:

Treat yourself and your brain to some real common sense for a week or two.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/

Or are you just going to pull a "Swifty"? That is, slag this blogger Huffington for "flip-flopping" because she switched parties a few years ago?

Are you gonna shoot back that the flip was Huffington's re-active rage gesture to get back at her newly out-of-the-closet GOP ex-hubby a few years beck. (That tactic would be point 3 in the "Swifty" talking points, isn't it.)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/

Yes, yes. Of course you will. That's your training. Too bad. This room's too smart for that as well.

(Do you want to play semantically loaded rhetorics? OK I've got my bat. And I've got my ball. Let's play.)

But why change tactics?

Playing on everyone's ignorance and fear worked well in geo-politically ignorant post 9/11 Amerika.
So by all means let's go with that smear thing, right?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/

You'll dismiss Huffington without even looking at her page. Or after going there, you'll just cherry-pick the least credible item you can find. Run back here with it and throw it in my face.
That's Common Sense, after all.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/

I ran the CIA and got a medal for lying for Bush. Accepting that medal and was the most despicable, the most morally reprehensible thing I have ever done.
Hell, I couldn't sleep any more so I "flip-flopped".
I simply admitted I was wrong.
Now I feel better.
And, I'm talking.
A man's got to sleep at night. Right? (I just hope that for my troubles I don't get "canoed" on the Potomac like Colby.)

Bear in mind before you scream at me that "flip-flopping" is exactly what a lot of big GOP money is doing these days as well.
It's switching parties.
(Keeping its eye on the pork)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/

And while I'm at it I know that "Swifty" point 4, "When faced with a good hard presentation from a liberal, just tell him to get his own ideas instead of 'parroting' the ideas of others".

The Huffington Post is just the daily news Common Sense. It's not a laundry list of woolly headed conspiracies (which themselves are becoming more and more mainstream with every passing day).

Come on. Get with it.

It's you who needs a dose of reality, Common Sense. You're a young man. The whole Amerikan political scene needs to be renovated. It's not a job for pussies, either.

You write well. Instead of settling for your "Swifty beer and ham sandwich", why not get with this program?

Sincerely
George Tenet

Common Sense says:

Noam/Kevin/George,
Reread my posts. You will see that your points are addresed. Maybe you don't like my answers or are so overwrought with emotion that you cannot comprehend them. No I didn't do use the cut/paste/reply method, but they are addressed. Read some of what fbuom has to say and maybe you can digest that a little better. If all else fails, let me know and I will pick through our posts and painstakingly lay it out in an easy to follow fashion for you.

My replys may not be to your liking, but they did address your points. Unfortunately, you have no desire to discuss these issues in a responsible manner. You simply wish to 'convert' me to your way of thinking.

fbuom,
I wish there were more people like you in the world who can see the world, in all its glory and evil, for what it is. You've got a good, well informed grasp of how these situations play out. Propoganda, as deceitful as it may be, is just another ugly part of war.

Noam Chomsky says:

Common Sense, you say:

"Reread my posts. You will see that your points are addresed. That is simply not the case."

My observation and that of many others here is that precisely the opposite is the case. i.e. That you did not even attempt to squarely address the above-posted points and you have simply blown them off with a claim that you have.
This is unacceptable.

And you claim it is me that is not willing to discuss. You claim that it is me that is not willing to work something out. I do not seek to convert. I seek to exchange ideas.

Here are the points again in precis and in order:

1) I killed for the president. The president is an idiot.

2)Would you or would you not have smeared/categorized/dismissed Pat Tillman as a liberal?

3) "You want some common sense, Common Sense? The "Tillman's" ARE America, Common Sense. How's that for common sense, Common Sense?
"The Tillmans and Amerika have been lied into giving up blood and treasure by a duplicitous, evil regime in the name of a false cause for reasons that have never been made public.

4)Your contention that liberals and critics of this administration use the benefit of hindsight when in fact they have been right about this war and many other essential aspects from the start. They have been right all along.
The point IS if they have been right all along and there is a genuine desire to avoid the mistakes of the past why not just listen to the warning sirens the next time. Would THAT not be a good solution instead of smearing the messengers as anti-American.
How about simply restoring constitutional checks and balances as the fathers of our country had originally planned.
Start by firing Gonzales, Rice, Bush, Cheney, purging our government of all this criminal behavior and returning it to the people.
To WE, the People.

I have spent a lot of valuable time on your posts. In return, I ask you one last time to go back up and to honestly address the points I have presised.
I am not seeking a convert. I object to the religious implications of that remark.

Wombat says:

In order to keep this going & at the risk of accusations of being a conspiracy theorist has anyone else noticed what lies between Iraq & Afghanistan? What apart from oil is another of that country's principle exports?

Bangkok Bad Boy says:

@Wombat:

Iran lies directly between Iraq and Afghanistan. Its other principle exports (aside from British sailors) are: carpets and handicrafts, military supplies, cars, agricultural products (fruit and nuts), foodstuff, construction materials (iron, steel, copper) and services, technical services, consumer goods.

So sayeth Wikipedia, anyway. What are you getting at?

@David: More tattoos, less Common Sense please.

Dr. Guido Jardine says:

Why no Mr. Wombat. No, not at all.
Actually, ah, um, er, no we, uh, would have no idea what else could be, um, of interest to those of us in the West who, um, want nothing but the best for,um these, um poor benighted Muselman mountain farmers.

Common Sense says:

Kevin/Noam/George,
Before you go thinking I've skated out on responding to your post, I'm going to let you know that some unforseen circumstances came up today that didn't allow me the time to reply. I've got an early morning cross country flight, but will hopefully be able to respond by tommorow night, US time. At the most you will hear from me withing 48 hours. I apologize for the inconveniece and will get back to our pissing contest at the earliest possible time.

fbuom says:

Kevin/Noam/George,

I really don't know where to start. Perhaps by reminding y'all that I've always been opposed to the action in Iraq, I haven't served there, and unlike CS, I am a Yank of liberal/libertarian persuasion. But like CS, I've had some problems with Kevin's posts.

Let's look first at Noam's most recent post:

1) You are taking CS grossly out of context, a tactic reminiscent of your buddy, Rush Limbaugh. Discerning folks recognized the sarcasm of the reference to the president where he stated, "The gun didn't make me do it, the president did." Swifty tactics, right?

2) Kevin categorized Pat Tillman as a liberal, so shall I. Can't say whether or not I'd dismiss him as a liberal, I don't have any direct knowledge of his opinions. Once I know their opinions, I dismiss a lot of conservatives, too. Smear him as a liberal? Like you've smeared CS as a 'swifty'?

3) The US is made up of a lot of folks. As many like CS as the Tillman's. Don't forget the results of the 2004 elections. In fact, I'd say there are more like CS than the Tillmans - disillusioned by the Iraq war, disillusioned by Bush, etal., but still quite conservative, quite willing (unlike CS) to give up their rights in return for a promise of security. Isn't that what gun control is? Giving up rights in return for security?

4) Let's see, what was the vote on invading Iraq? How many liberals voted no? And which party controlled the Senate (77-23 in favor)? Ahhh, but perhaps those folks weren't _your_ kind of liberal. They believed in the US form of government.

I dismiss the remainder of 4) as radical liberal rhetoric - we're not debating changing the US form of government here. That's another topic - one upon which reasonable folks may agree to differ, but upon which idealists of any persuasion are adamant.

George, you said above, "I ran the CIA and got a medal for lying for Bush. Accepting that medal and was the most despicable, the most morally reprehensible thing I have ever done."

That doesn't square with what you said publicly elsewhere. Elsewhere, you said you accepted the medal _only_ after learning it was for work other than the Iraq debacle and that you would _not_ have accepted it for, "[L]ying for Bush". What's it gonna be? Get your facts straight if you're going to impersonate. Or are you, too, Rush in liberal drag?

George, What's your, "[G]ood, hard point?" Please elucidate. Seems to me, the best you could do is point at someone else's points, then go on a tirade about the swifty talking points. You really use them well.

A last thought: Most folks will trade freedom and personal responsibility for security at the drop of a hat. CS is the archtype for those who would survive in anarchy - he's willing to do what it takes to protect himself and those he loves. Noam, go back and reread Hobbes. I personally prefer Locke's views, but Hobbes makes very valid points about the nature of _some_ 'men'.

And why is it that every 'dictatorship of the proletariat' has failed in its intended mission?

fbuom
BBB - "[M]ilitary supplies, ... and services, technical services...." Of a nuclear nature, perhaps? Good on you, Wombat.;-)

Noam Chomsky says:

fbuom:

You seem to have problems with everyone's posts.

Could it be that they have somethng to say while you can only really blabber away about what other posters have said said?

And even then you don't get it right.

The most important thing on your dance card is to appear to have something to say something, anything, boring or self-contradictory doesn't matter.

Taking Common Sense out of context would be like fishing feces out of a septic tank. The whole context is shit. His whole frame of reference is polluted.

fbuom? You remind me of the arseholes who went off on the poor guy who got dog-packed in the Apple store.

A pack of ex-holiday, ex-hot-doggers who'll never get back in their lifetime but thanks to the internet are able to Lord Jim their fucking way all over the place when it come to offering advice.

Your flawed and nonsensical posts? A complete and utter bore.
Sophistry . . . debate farts.

Get a fucking life.

Noam Chomsky says:

Common Sense:

Of course.
No problem.
Take your time.
I know you'll deal with my points more squarely than this (yaaaawn) fbuom character.

Please. Take your time. Point by point would be OK. When you have time to get it all laid out the way you want it.

Best
Noam

Prufrock says:

It's all very well to rip into and take easy shots at Common for his unpopular stance and limited views.
Too easy.

Common may just have a good point; for all the wrong reasons (if he has preserved in amber his reasoning from our earlier exchanges) but he may have some solid points.
It pays at this stage, however, to think things along a little.

I agree with most, including Common and Kevin Tillman that this whole War on Terror fiasco was a mismanaged farrago of lies, ignorance and criminality on an unprecedented scale. The extent of the deception varies with each critic but there are few who wouldn't concede that this thing resulted from criminally negligent or just plain criminal administrative incompetence.

This campaign is far worse than the murderous Saddam regime ever was.
(Well Common and I might disagree on some of these details.)
Petroleum will remain a strategic resource until it is depleted even as an "obsolete and outdated" energy source. Oil is what it is; the King of strategic resources.

What everyone, including myself has failed to address at any point is: If petroleum, this critical strategic resource, were to be the hands of our Chinese friends, our Russian friends or our Japanese, French, or Israeli friends,for that matter, what would be the scenario playing out instead of this one? Do you think we'd have had any media on that scenario whatsoever??

Does anyone seriously think that the Chinese Abu Grhaib or the Chinese Faluja or the Chinese roadblock murders would have been any more humane than the US versions?

Would they even have been reported? I mean just look at the Chinese record with the Wighurs for god's sake.

This leaves DIPLOMACY as the ONLY way.
Diplomacy, as in the recommendations of the Baker/Hamilton
Iraq Study Group.
Diplomacy.

Bush's idiotic puppy-dogging of Cheney's "Haliburton essentialism", the whole Neocon/AIPAC agenda and finally the fake (enemy at the gate) War on Terror have led The United States of America into a nightmare fiasco. That Saigon Embassy helicopter lift will look like a carnival ride when compared with the US's inevitable withdraw from a ruined Iraq.

What's really ugly here is that the US and the West should control most of the world's oil. Either that or each State control its own, like Venezuela does and make us kiss their asses to get it. Let the Russians run the gas deals. Venezuela (5th largest? makes a nice balance, for the independents and it forces the US to negotiate.)

This Iraq thing should have been done diplomatically. (not via the dicta-war they're into now.) See innumerable references to that from Bushevic defectors.

If the US had asked consultants for a plan to LOSE control of the oil in Iraq they couldn't have come up with a more efficient plan than the one in play at the moment.

Baker/Hamilton/ISG would have saved the day. Unfortunately, pretty early in its scenario,the ISG blueprint dumps Israel's plans to take over that whole scene.
Therefor because the AIPAC lobby holds the balance of power in both houses, ISG was a non-starter. Israel runs the show, lads. That's who you fight and die for. Not the USA. Israel. You went into Iraq because Iraq threatened Israel. You are threatening to nuke Iran because Israel (the only nuclear power in the region) feels threatened.
After discussion of the strategic resource implications it really IS all about Israel.

This insane illogical war was the answer because war was in the interests of Israel; a profoundly dubious ally of the US with a larger economy than Spain's.

Anyway, it's probably too late now just let it burn out. . Just remember that when the blame gets handed out for this one, Israel will be wearing sack cloth and ashes, crying anti-Semite and re-claiming "lost" Jewish real estate in Baghdad the US will get painted as evil.

Enacting Baker/Hamilton now would be impossible without decent diplomats on all sides.
There just aren't any.

fbuom says:

Noam,

Thanks for 'revealing' yourself.

A quote from someone above fits into my response quite well,

"I also see that when you got into trouble ... there were a few standard, stock in trade, ad hominem smears heaped by you ... on the poster. Typical Swifty rhetoric. No one is fooled anymore."

Perhaps you'd like to enumerate the flaws in my posts for me?

Ad hominem...... Who do I know that likes that word?

Oh, by the way, I get back regularly - at least once a month, sometimes months at a time - but what the fuck does that have to do with Kevin/George/Noam?

##############

Good to see you back, Prufrock. Like CS, I might disagree with you on some details, but I do believe you laid the situation out pretty clearly.

fbuom

Prufrock says:

Common Sense:

This is in no way a contradiction of my last post on this matter. It is further evidence of the complexity of this horrific situation in Iraq: a predicament which you acknowledge was a mistake.
A "mistake", which I label as deliberately engineered chaos.
Simple chaos was always the plan.

You poor guys are just the cannon fodder necessary to perpetuate this chaos.

Douglas Feith and Special Plans set it up. Those guys all work for Israeli interests, Common. Most have dual US Israeli citizenship, Common. The ones that do not have simply dropped their Israeli passports in the toilet for the moment.
Your country's national security has been hijacked by a pack of Neocon rag-pickers and you boys are dying for it.

And by the way it is NOT anti-Semitic to criticize the policies of Israel or to scrutinize people like Douglas Feith, Dov Zakheim, Paul Wurmser or Richard Perle. Colin Powell and a growing number of prominant US academics have dared to say and do just this.

There's plenty of fact out there to substantiate these "wild anti-Israel claims") Plenty. Inform yourself.

So here's more or less the same message I have been drumming out since this pre-cooked slaughter in Iraq was threatening to start four years ago.

It's in more polite terms from a former British commander in Iraq.
Is General Sir Michael Rose just another surrender monkey?

He likens the Iraqi insurgents to the American insurgents in AWI. He's not the first. Is he a traitor, then?

Is he a coward? A hippie? Does Sir Gen. Michael Rose lack your intelligence background, perhaps. Your firearms training? ? Your insider information? Did he fail to serve when his country when it asked him to serve? Is he a "convert" peacenik? Is he a fool?
The answer to all these questions is of course "NO".

Is he sick and fucking tired of seeing good men like Pat Tillman slaughtered for no reason at all. Seeing good men's minds and spirits savaged by the horrors of an unnecessary war?

The answer is "YES". He's not alone.

There are hundreds like Sir General Michael Rose in the US military and in the mainstream. They are patriotic Americans. Their views range from complete peaceniks (you attempt to characterize (smear?) me as one) to guys like Baker and Gen. Rose.

These guys come out one after another, week after week and simply confirm the information and the sentiments that anti-war activists have been publicizing all these four years.

These good people have been systematically sidelined, retired or smeared or ignored by the Bush administration for "breaking ranks". (James Baker III?)

Iraq is not a final exam you failed for god's sake.
Do you really want to avoid the mistakes of the past or is that just something you say? It is a murderous slaughter and civil war prosecuted and fomented upon three tribes of people trapped within the fiat borders dictated by the Sikes-Picot Agreement at the start of the last century. . . . a murderous slaughter of the innocents unleashed solely by Western interests.
These poor people living and raising families in what ironically are the lands of the West's oldest civilizations, just happen to have the misfortune of sitting on "our 'oal'"

So we were taught to fear them (first with 9/11 smears and then with Israeli security bugaboos) to hate them, to deem them as unworthy of life and if they were not willing to surrender their treasure we were encouraged to kill them WITHOUT REMORSE.

Impreach Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Feith, Wolfowitz, Rice, etc.etc.etc. et al.

Try THEM all for treason, breach of the public trust in the highest offices in the land. Convict them of looting American blood and treasure on behalf of the shadowy entities that propelled them into office.
After their inevitable conviction on these charges,
march these bastards to the wall at sunrise and execute them.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/
0,,2072171,00.html

Sir Gen. Michael Rose is THE former British commander in Iraq.

Now Rose may be smeared by the usual suspects as not having the gravitas nor the education nor the wisdom nor the game sense or whatever of his American counterparts.
Or dismissed by you as a fag, or whatever, but Gen. Rose is right.
His critics are wrong.

Further prosecution of this war is criminal.

Common Sense says:

Gents,
While I did not take the time to read all the comments throughly I did take head to a little of what has been said. Between Prufrock and Fbuom I think this discussion can be carried on convidently without my presence for the next few days.

I have a distressing family matter to tend to at the moment and cannot devote my attention to this conversation at the time. That being said, do not take this as a cop-out (even Prufrock will vouch that I never give up) I will continue this discussion when time allows. At most it will be a few days.

Wombat says:

Prufrock

It is obvious Iraq is a mess. It is now irrelevant whether that conclusion came about through foresight or hindsight. The fact remains. The options are withdrawal or maintaining substantial armed forces there for many years to come. Would life in Iraq be any better if the choice was withdrawal? Is there the possibility of achieving stability & the rule of law by remaining? I have an opinion but it is not a firm one. Perhaps it is wishful thinking. I posed a question above which Bangkok Bad Boy & fbuom attempted to answer. The answer I was looking for was terror. I have long suspected that rattling Irans cage, amongst others, was always an intended benefit of invading Iraq.

Incidentally, I have always been of the opinion that Saddam Hussein should have been deposed after the first Gulf War. Surely the reasons for doing so then were more justified.

Prufrock says:

Carry on, Common.
First things first.

This is just the internet in spite of the occasional ferocity of the rhetoric.
Real life does rear its ugly head from time to time.

Take your time or if you will we can just pick this up at some later stage in its development.

It's not as if anything much is going to change.

Prufrock says:

Wombat: Don't get sucked in to that metaphorical "exporting terrorism" shite. The pro-war guys will just use you.

Get into a pro diplomacy frame of mind before its too late. Baker/Hamilton ISG may still be workable if Iran is included in the talks as they suggested.

And pulllease let's just not have the specter of pre WWII Nazi German appeasement raised again to justify the nuking of Iran. That appeasement trope got us INTO this shit.

Ugly as he was, the Secular/Sunni Saddam was all that was keeping the region's Shiite tribes from hooking up hands into one big wide anti-western grimace stretching from Jedda right across the region through Basra and deep into Iran.

Now that Saddam buffer thing is history and the Shiite alliance is almost a sure thing in the fullness of time.
That's what is bothering the US.
That and the threat to the Israelis. The Israelis who don't give a flying fuck about ANYTHING but their own asses.
I say FUCK ISRAEL. (Just quoting James Baker here, Heschy).

The solution here is NOT to nuke Iran. That'll only multiply the threat ten-fold over the coming years. You want to export terrorism from that part of the world? Just give them a better reason than the Palestinian ethnic cleansing massacre that Israel is into now. (6 Palestinians die for every Israeli victim BTW)

Saddam's mistake was that he figured NO ONE was stoopid enough to break that old entente horrible he had with the US against Iran. He underestimated the extent of imbecility that Bush and his cohorts could come up with.

Of course Saddam didn't get out all that often to see the likes of George Bush and Co and sample the level of stupidity that Bush and Cheney's Neocon "Crazies" had imposed on the US in post 9/11 Amerika.
Saddam underestimated the stupidity of the US president and his team and now the entire region is aflame with murderous arrogance of the kind only the US can impose on a defenseless enemy.
The US and the West will NEVER put that out.
Best to leave.
Baker Hamilton (Let the fucking Israelis take what's coming to them. God knows they've been whining about this inevitability long enough. Let them suck it up for once instead of sending our people to die for them and their supposed suffering that we've been hearing about for fifty fucking yearzzzzzzzzzz).

And Wombat? As for your riddle getting all that puzzlement as a reaction?

Everyone exports fucking terrorism. Amerika is the absolute WORST offender in that department.

Dante says:

It gets really annoying when these threads are hijacked by people like CS, Prufrock etc. It is obvious that they are way too serious and would be a nightmare to live with. I have the greatesst sympathy for their partners (however, I think they have been single for a long time.) It has become clear to me that any returning GI Joe will develop serious mental problems which makes them feel compulsed to take threads hostage and go on and on...I mean, the thread starts with David's amuusing post on tatooed arses and then is steered towards a debate on Iraq.

My opinion on Iraq? Who cares? Reading about Thai women with decorated backsides is far more entertaining than some drivel about whose to blame in the Middle East.

Perhaps people like Common Sense and Prufrock should post on www.nobody-really-listens-to-me-in-real-life-
but-I-think-i-have-a-captive-audiience-on-
MS-(am-I-delusional?).com

The level of self-importance and pontification is displayed in the following comment by Common sense:

"I think this discussion can be carried on convidently (sic) without my presence for the next few days."

WTF? Since when has Common Sense become a moderator on Mango Sauce?

Please, please get a grip and get a life!

Anyway, cute thai butts with pictures on them are far more attractive than geo-political discussions amongst hacks, wannabe Canadian daily editors and post traumatic burnt-out vets with superiority complexes.

Reclaim the thread: Thai babe's bums RULE!!!!

Wombat says:

Prufrock

I don't believe I mentioned anything about using nuclear weapons on Iran. While I agree with some of what you say there is, I believe, a larger scenario to be considered.

I don't have time to elaborate on it now. Unfortunately I have promised to spend the evening out on the town where I expect to be in the same venue as a bunch of women with the charm & grace of a herd of elephants. Whenever a popular song is played the rush to the dance floor reminds me of the film Jumanji. Sigh.

Only another 3 1/2 months till my next visit.

Dante

Thanks for your contribution.

Yours sincerely

A Hack

Prufrfrock says:

Dante? That skinny, spavined, well pounded, butt had had just about everything said about it that was going to be said.
Honestly, it had been talked out. I mean did you have anything to add except your whining post about us picking up the momentum.??

Sorry to break your heart there, Dante but as a topic of ANY interest at all, that thread had lived its life. That scrawny, boney butt had been discussed to fucking death. We just picked up the thread's momentum.

Use your brain. Our chat was like filling a hole on page one of yesterday's paper.
If there'd been something else to say about that butt someone would have said it.
If there remains something to say about that butt, someone can still say it.

Fuck man even YOU said something. Did you feel you'd run out of paper at some point?

This is the medium that we're into here.

Or did you have anything to add other than the fact that we used that thread's momentum to further a discussion we had been having. I strongly doubt it.

"The verbals" did not end that discussion anymore than you made the sun go down yesterday by having your seventh wank of the day. Or, for that matter, Dante, any more than you validated your brand of whining by simply bringing up the notion that "eeeeuuww, isn't stuff that's that's not, like, arranged, icky?. Eeeeeuw I hate finding un-filed material. It's so gross. I just hate that when that happens."

All you really did, Dante, was to show us all that your own penchant for really bad looking butts (bet her face is not much better) bums and anal retentive organizational skills are critical to your enjoyment of life.
Categories are important to you, it seems.
Do you work in a video store or something?

I hear your cry for help and I also hear your discomfort with anything that might be meaningful or with anyone with anything to say.

I, Common, Wombat, fbuom and the many other "verbals" here on this site and other sites RARELY coat-tail topic momentum (off topic at least) until the things have more or less trickled off. Rarely. As frightening as it may have been to you Dante; as heartbreaking as it may have been Dante? THE discussion of ugly tattooed bums was over.

How silly to suggest that our exchanges are boring and pretentious on the one hand but on the other, have the power and ferocity to squelch intelligent witty posts by you and others who wish to stay "on topic": That you're somehow driven off by posters who have the effrontery to post "off topic".

And if you don't like it? Scroll through. It's easy.

But don't try to pin the falling-off of a thread's interest on long posters.

If us verbals have interrupted your hermetic mental processes concerning that particular starved, ugly, skinny, mutilated 500 baht a night stretch of infrequently claimed Pattaya whore-skin, then ADD something for god's sake.
Butt nope. You, instead, you swing in here about two weeks after the thread's more or less died out for lack of interest to sound off about how boring we ended it.

I am bored with people accusing the more verbal posters to this or any other site of "monopolizing " anything.

You just don't like to read. You just don't like to write. You have very few ideas on ANYTHING except your profoundly astute capsulizations on what might be the mental state of someone who cares to use momentum of a thread to address a theme that has been around for a while.
The fact that you don't give a shit about anything except what you may consider to be a good time, just might be part of a much bigger problem here mightn't it?
*****************************

See Dante? If this had been a chat forum, I could have stopped this shit after the first paragraph, you could have interjected a more interesting topic. Something completely different.

THE TOPIC OF HOW STUPID AND SILLY YOUR OBJECTIONS ARE WAS DEAD AND BURIED TWENTY-ONE COLUMN INCHES AGO :-)

Prufrock says:

OK, ok, I was texting that last "steamer" out to youse all on my new super deluxe Nokia, I was simultaneously test-driving the oral talents of a young Spice Girls trollop with colossal tits.

Voracious little slattern made me spell my name wrong and swallow my gum.

Prufrock

Faber & Faber says:

Poor Prufrock....always takes the bait.
Dante in flagrante eh Pru boy...

hehe

Prufrock says:

The sperm-gargling Faber finds a moment to post his only excuse for posting at all. Prufrock's back.

Toilet Trading behind the Porta-Potties again, I hear, Faber.

Let's see, there's you, Pathetic Nonsense, Loose Condom et al., all back in action three days after I start posting again ;-?

fuck, who can be bothered keeping a list. But you sure ALL have the same things to say, don't you?

You got nothing that I want, pussies. And I have EVERYTHING you want. I can just tell by the way you run after me to pick up my buts.

Beggars
Ragpickers

Pussies.

Light-weight pack of ninnies.

Edward Said says:

What is the problem with this Prufrock character? Can anyone enlighten me?

Dante says:

@Prufrock

You state:

"THE discussion of ugly tattooed bums was over."

First it was Common Sense, the wannabe moderator, now it is Prufrock.

Since when do you, prufrock, decide when a thread is done? Your arrogance is amazing.

Are you trying to dictate to all of us the rules on this website?

You are not special prufrock...just another punter. Ask your womaan, she should know....

..........................

Here here...

broadbandbully says:

Pro's Frock, I see your back from school camp.

It is a good sign when young adults like yourself have opinions on grown up stuff like Iraq, even though your talking rubbish.

Good to have you back young man, there hasn't been anyone to really have a go at this past week.

Prufrock says:

Dante? Is that really the best you can do?
Accuse me of trying to moderate? I mean is that it? After all that, you come up with the idea that I am trying to steer this thing?

Shit man, this was all your doing. You were the guy who decreed when this thing kicked off that off-topic stuff was a problem. Wasn't me.
You were moderating.
Shit, I just remarked that no one had said anything about that particularly UGLY arse in the photo. There was a comment or two and then it lost its legs.

But, hey, feel free, I'm interested now, where would you liked this thread to have gone? The guy with the buddy who had drawings of people coming out his ass?, gun play in the suburbs (see there was a shooting around then in the states so this was kinda topical) and Common's boasts about killing people to go un-met?
And Kevin Tillman? You'd deny Kevin Tillman so you could leave white space in case somebody had an ass-tatt story?
Would you have like us all to have fallen into your line of thinking and added our own personal tales about ass- tatts and guns?

I don't have any stories like that.

But I'm all ears now.
Carry on.

Noam Chomsky says:

Hi Eddy: Prufrock's always had issues with Israel and that silly old Palestinian genocide thing he was harping about to Wombat a while back.

The there's the US media shut-out of coverage for Israel's slaughter of the innocents in Palestine.

Care to shed any light on that?

Being Palestinian and an academic and all?

Tatt2dude says:

Given Prufrocks almost "rabid" attack against poor Khun G in his previous post I would say he has spent too long in the bars buying buffalo, and not enough time practicing his obvious literary talents.

One has tainted the other I fear.

Lighten up dude and get a hobby other than paying barfines.

Prufrock says:

Dante,

Dante you seem like a fair guy.
You have expressed your feelings about those who post off topic. I expressed mine as well. You have not really attacked me for my views so permit me to apologize for the reactive vitriolics of my reply to you.

It was harsh, but if anything that harshness was pushed by sentiments for matters for which I have genuine concern.
Simply because Bangers is a bit of a crossroads it s not THAT far off topic to some of us people actually DO talk about this war and other things here.

If you scroll down this blog role, there is even an entry by the
tatoo2dude himself, where he asks:

"Is it wrong of me to change the subject and mention that I once beat Marvin Hagler in a fist fight over a bar girl in Nana?"
(There's a guy with a sense of humor having a go cause his "thing" lost its legs? Dunno. What's David to di? Restrict posts to on-topic stuff? Who has time?)

Now, of course tatoo2dude's laughing at our "change of topic" here but he is also aware that a) there was a pro-gun/anti-gun subtext running between Wombat and Common. Kevin Tillman had joined the fray and the Iraq thing IS very much in the news. . . . and the Virginia Tech shootings thing had just kicked off.

All I ask is that you might take a look at some of the stoopid shit that comes my way and ask yourself if you would not hit back and, more importantly, re: the vulgar shots from some others, simply IGNORE.
And they can ignore me.
But the dirty secret there is that without other posters to slag they have little to say.

I do not ignore the verbals with something to say.
Common Sense has learned to post his views as coherently as views like his can be posted and he has faith that they will be addressed. So the post that struck you as arrogant was to the rest of the long posters. That's really all there was to that.

And I sense your frustration at having little further to read ob BGls butts. But there was little else posted. I did not impose it, I observed it.
There are no moderators on this board. That's the blog owners choice. That's how he rolls, as it were.
AND it's a very successful site.

Common Sense was only trying to tell the verbals that he's had a family emergency and that he's had to fly across country to deal with it. In doing this he was acknowledging that we'd spent some time composing and posting and that he wasn't going to ignore our points.

I can see where that would look like arrogance but it isn't. It's respect and acknowledgment.

As far as lengthy posts are concerned, please understand that this is easy for me. Geo-politics is my "fough-bough."

^^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>

After sending the luscious Om Sin and her wonderfully polite and delightfully coversant 14 year old daughter back up to Om Sin's village for a while, after last night's flurry of posts-backs I made the usual rounds in Nana and Cowboy and the Pong.

If you didn't, or you couldn't, you wouldn't have missed much.

There has been a real overall decline in nightlife here. The quality of these girls now is simply abysmal and their manners, their training, their beauty, their "knowledge" of what Om Sin calls "the life" is sadly lacking.
You may agree.
There are bright spots. But the really hot women get picked up early. The Thais are right now when they say we get the absolute dregs.
What's left is the REAL dregs. The slappers, the deformed, the dogs, thsly and the used. The rejects. And the hot newbies are quickly snapped up in "big private sponsorship deals. Or they get a "team" together and work the freelancer bars of which there are MANY.

GO-go's, with their greedy "mamasans", ignorant, ugly, unclean, physically unattractive girls and a totally "locked down" attitude vis. foreign tourists Japanese, money, pack behavior, and watered drinks, altered drinks, shortchanging etc. etc. go-go bars are sad parodies of their former selves now Dante.

I hear Pattaya is much better. I rarely go there much because am not overly fond of the "punter culture" and I work in Bangers. And now as opposed to fifte3en years ago there's loads of pussy on pffer in day to day life ;-)

Bangkok Bad boy's recent reminiscences of BTS/MRT tottie are spot on. There's more hot willing women to be seen there on the transit systems than in any bar!

Clean up. Dress well. Shave. Slap on a fresh laundered shirt and the world's your oyster.
It's that simple. (Don't forget your pants.)

Anyway, and this is in no way a snap. I am off topic here now. Whatever that topic might have been. I don't really have any idea.

Now lets see what happens :-)

Prufrock says:

bigbroadbelly posted:
Good to have you back young man, there hasn't been anyone to really have a go at this past week.

Thanks "big".
You're not actually admitting that without my "observations" that a fine mind like yours could generate little in the way of commentary now, are you?.

BTW
I'll have a word with my Mr. Tokyo.
His night shift employer Mr. Bauer has put some nastiness into his mind and he does get into the "pottiness" of it all from time to time if he's been riled.

Dante says:

Prufrock,

Apology accepted. After re-reading your post I think you make some valid points and yes perhaps I am guilty of trying to moderate as well. Therefore please accept my apology for accusations towards yourself and Common Sense: it was rash of me. Anyway, water under the bridge...

You are spot on about your assessment of Bangkok and the decline in attitude of the working girls. I despair to think what it will be like 10 years from now.

cheers...

Prufrock says:

Hi Tatt2dude:
No offense. Nice clean work BTW. Well laid out. You must really be disturbed by the caliber of some of the work these poor gals get stamped on themselves. In fact I something tells me you do your best to fix bad stuff for free, right? Nothing specific, you strike me as that kind of person.

Tatts just aren't my thing, that's all.
Hey man, I've got nothing against Khun G. She's just got a bad case of c-team, Buriram, bus ass. At least from the photo.
Ahem :-) ya know?? Maybe another photo ??? Hey yeah. how 'bout another photo :-)

I like full curves, big-assed Thai chicks with big smiles and a little confidence.

It's all relative ;-)
G's but is just not my kind of butt.

Poor kid probably hasn't had a real break her whole life. So I'm not gonna pick on a BG who's best move to date was to escape the influence of her older brother's "bidnet" model . . . something to do with fill-ups for his Honda 25 and the poor kid's barely formed nether parts.
Like I say. It's all relative.

Good luck with the studio and website.

broadbandbully says:

Thanks Pro's Frock, I thought you were ignoring me, again!

I now know i've arrived, I've been threatened by a 15 year old boys internet alter ego's alter ego. This is just fine, by the time youv'e saved up the airfare i'll be an easy OAP target.

I have posted this week, mainly on topic. You should try it some time.

Whoever is responsible for the Om Sin posts? Bravo!!!!

tatt2dude says:

Thanks Pru, don't give it another thought, despite having my bizniz cards and various other point of sale, chances of any of the models bothering to log on is slim to none!

Yep I try my best to sort out the mistakes as and when I can, however nothing in this life is free, every girl pays 500 baht per session, a session being as long as they can sit, some of the buggers are so cheap they can sit for five hours.

The money I take is spent on the education of a one of the girls kids, an exceptionally bright three year old whose farang father deserted her, she is now doing very well in a local school, learning both English and Chinese, she is the one getting the break hopefully for a better future.

I get young taught skin to practise my art and the braging rights that I am one of the few if not only farang in Thailand who gets paid by bar girls for HIS time!

Wouldn't the world be a better place if there were more win win situations?

Prufrock says:

tatt2dude:
Wouldn't the world be a better place if there were more win win situations?

Always made my biggest and best sales on the win-win scheme. Your scholarship funding is admirable: How long has this been in effect? I assume you're doing the private lesson thing/

I had an educated Thai woman ask me once why some "girls with no education" could speak English and other European languages so well after only a few months working in the bars.
My answer as I remember went something along the lines that as long as the girls were as far as possible away form those dreadful village schools they were on the right track.

Om Sin went to ECC for three months with her sister where they took semi-private lessons.

(They could speak but couldn't read) Well three months into it they were reading those "graded readers" Dracula, Jeckle & Hyde, Oscar Wilde Short Stories and plowing through anything else they found remotely interesting.

"Thanks to Nick at ECC Siam! :-)"

Wombat says:

Prufrock

With regards to the current situation in Iraq I would like to outline some possible scenarios.

Let me precis this by giving some indication of my attitude to all religion. I tend to regard believers with the same wry amusement one reserves for someone else's wayward child. Either that or I think they belong in a padded cell. I would like to think that this is a considered opinion as during my school years my parents paid to have me incarcerated in one of this states better Anglican schools. To my suprise I was chosen to read the lesson more than anyone else. Many never had to read it at all. Perhaps the Masters & the alcoholic who served as a priest mistook my smirk for enjoyment. Curiously the God they so fervently claimed to believe in made no protest.

You demonstrate an anti US/Israeli viewpoint in many of your posts. I don't doubt there is a certain validity in your view. The pro Israeli lobby in the US is well funded & organised. Combined with a collective residual guilt over the Holocaust this gives them many advantages. Yet this is democracy at work. The best & most effective form of government bar benevolent dictatorship & how many dictatorships end benevolently?

The Middle East has historically occupied an important place in world affairs. Initially as the cradle of civilisation it then became an important crossroads in the trade between east & west. Its current importance rests wholly with its reserves of oil. A resource vital for modern economies. If it wasn't for oil the world would view the Middle East with the same detachment it views the regular crisis that afflicts Africa.

Yet the current conflict is not between east & west even though that it how it is portrayed. It is between moderate & radical Islam. It is for control of the religion. Yet the moderates are not doing enough. I am sick of reading quotes from moderates along the lines that they couldn't criticise a radical because he was a good muslim. This after yet another atrocity. Fine but why not call him an evil, barbarous murderer. An individual may observe all the tenets of their faith while still committing murder. In other words religious belief is no excuse for committing a crime. Furthermore the radicals firmly believe that they can bomb us into submission. Interestingly 30% of muslims in Britain wish to live under Sharia Law. I haven't read anywhere whether that % is increasing or decreasing.

Israel isn't going anywhere. Neither is the Palestinian question? IMO nothing will be resolved while people on both sides of the fence have a vested interest in maintaining the conflict. That is part of Hamas appeal to the Palestinian people. I believe Arafat was another example. Maintained his popularity while busily lining his own pockets. Didn't exert himself attempting to disarm the various armed militia either.

As for Iraq what would happen if the coalition forces withdrew in the near future?

Certainly the Shia & Sunni would continue to tear into each other as they have been doing for centuries. Bit like the Balkans in that respect. A civil war & not our business? Often overlooked is the sizeable Kurdish minority in the north of Iraq. Not suprisingly they are inclined towards independence & may view this as their opportunity. There are also Kurds in Turkey, Iran & possibly Syria. None of those countries are going to look favourably on this course of events as it is likely to cause instability withihn their own borders so we can expect some form of military action. An escalation of armed conflict. This would be particularly tragic as Turkey, straddling the Middle East & Europe, is an example of a democratic muslim state.
It is not perfect but by & large successful.

With the coalition forces withdrawn from Iraq the more radical insurgents there would feel free to divert their attentions elsewhere. I believe they would focus once more on Afghanistan with the support & encouragement of Iran. Elements of the Pakistan military would be in favour of this also. The Taliban was originally their beneficiaries. While the US forces are rightfully confident in their technological superiority IMO the ground forces are ill equipped to deal with an insurgency. I believe reports out of Iraq support this opinion. This is not intended as a criticism of the men & women serving there but of their training. Vietnam was fought in a completely different environment but there are lessons from that conflict that still have not been learned.

In this environment the Pakistan military may well decide it is time to be rid of the shifty Pervez Musharraf. Assasination rather than execution or exile would be my guess. They do have form. If this were to happen the next President or Junta are likely to be much more radical in their outlook. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that they would take another slap at India. Kashmir is the logical flashpoint. Two nuclear armed powers with a history of enmity.

Over in the north of Africa Gaddaffi may well decide to resume his previous role as an active sponsor of terrorism. Having observed Saddams fate he came to the not unreasonable conclusion that he could well be next.

The above scenarios are speculative. They run the gammit from the almost certainly through the possible to the unlikely. But what concerns me is that those in favour do not appear to be considering any of this. For every action there is a consequence. Already we have enough examples of policy makers failing to pay due attention to this reality. If it is to be withdrawal I wonder how long before armed intervention is deemed to again be necessary. I seem to remember prevailing wisdom was that Saddam would be overthrown after the 1st Gulf War.

Forget about the United Nations. I've said before it is the most expensive & longest running practical joke in history. The Balkans, Rwanda, Zimbabwe, Sudan, North Korea & Burma are examples that come easily to mind as testimony to the effectiveness of the UN. The only alternative that I can see is unilateral action by a much larger coalition determined to put more troops on the ground & keep them there until peace is restored. There is about as much chance of that as there is of me flying to Mars. Get ready for Gulf War 3 coming to a TV screen near you real soon.

fbuom says:

Wombat,

I really _didn't_ need to be reminded of all that this morning!;-)

Seriously, I pretty much agree. It's depressing. The US should _never_ gone in the second time. We've opened a Pandora's Box. Now, whatever the cost, we have to figure out a way to close it, again.

I do agree with Prufrock (and you?) that the solution requires the efforts of a wide community of nations, some who probably see benefits in maintaining the chaos.

I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel, only the headlight of a fast express roaring down on top of us.

fbuom

ozricdan says:

surely that cant be right even an esan girl knows that having JUSTIN above her ass crack is not a good sign or maybe im missing the point and esan girls are really as stupid as they sound.

is this really an actual picture or is just some witty imagination on the part of the picture taker who knows how to use photoshop

please tell me i am wrong?

ps. i did read the main story and some of the comments but SHE MUST KNOW!

fbuom says:

ozricdan,

A) It's a real picture;
B) You're wrong.

Puns - like 'Justin' - are among the most difficult forms of humor for second language speakers to understand, no matter how intelligent.

Beyond that, however, why do you believe poor understanding of a language equates to stupidity?

I don't read Greek, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Thai or a whole lot of other languages. Under the right circumstances, it would be easy to convince me an off-color phrase written in one of those languages was actually quite innocent. Does that make me stupid? Naive, perhaps.

Isaan girls working the bars _are_ likely to be poorly educated. That usually implies a poor understanding of English. That is _not_ the same as stupid!

fbuom

tatt2dude says:

Real picture, your wrong, stupidity played a part for sure latest update at tatt2dude.com

ozricdan says:

its not her poor understanding of the language. its the stupidity of not finding out what something means before it was permantly inked to her body.

i have chinese character on my arm but i made sure of the correct translation.
this was done in shenyang where hardly anyone speaks english but i still managed to get this right. i dont speak chinese myself and you dont need to understand the laguage at all. the information is out there you just have to make a little effort and look.

so fbuom.......... you can see my point now i hope.
it really is plain stupidity and for these girls to lose this stigma they have to stop doing stupid things such as this.

Common Sense says:

Kevin, Noam, George,
You still around. Sorry for my delay at getting back to you but as Prufrock pointed out "Sometimes real life does rear its ugly head". If you wish to carry on where we left off let me know, otherwise I'll just consider this conversation dead in the water.

Noam Chomsky says:

Common Sense posted "dead in the water"
You would be well advised, CS to look up the meanings of cliches like "dead in the water" before you use them. This avoids supererogatory contestation and argument in already over-presented debate.

"(D)ead in the water" refers to an argument's being "moot" or "academic" by virtue of the fact that subsequent events and/or new information have changed the terms of reference to such an extent that any differences of opinion have been clearly settled.

If you go back into all those posts you will find references to only facts and opinion that are, if anything, very much more relevant than they were when you left the discussion to attend to family matters.

You will agree that quite to the contrary, in view of subsequent events too numerous and too over-riding to mention, that the facts, quotations, information presented by these people and their arguments, stand more strongly than ever.

"(O)therwise I'll just consider this conversation dead in the water" , then would certainly NOT be an appropriate response to the opinions and information posted by these people, then would it.

More to the point, would perhaps be your comment to the effect that: "I can see that the more topical "phoootbawn", "Mac Attack" and "rock rat" tips have superseded discussion of, President Carter's latest remarks, Blair's resignation, rag-picker Paul Wolfowitz's resignation, and the criminalization of "peety-gawns" (somebody? a linguist with free time could explain) and the looming possibility of nuclear war.
Thank you for your understanding and after I catch up here at MS,I look forward to hammering this twat that insists the money hungry Chinese harridan at the Siam Discovery Apple Store had every right to treat her customer like a criminal.

That might be a good place to "rip some cheek" as Frank Zappa used to say :-)"

Or you could chose to return to those arguments about Iraq which, as I have said, were rendered more or less moot by subsequent world events in your absence.

regards
Noam

Kevin Tillman says:

@ "Common Sense" No.

But as you know, I'm busy now with family matters and this blog now seems to have moved on to matters more pressing to the local expat gentry.

Incidentally, I hope your own personal and family concatenations have more or less settled back into life's matrix and that all is well with you.

semper fidelis
(I know, I know ;-)
Kevin

George Tenant says:

Hi Common Sense: "Thank God for Al Gonzalez," is all I can say.
I was DC's biggest "yes man" before he started to tap dance around the hearings, heh heh heh.
Rove doesn't return my calls anymore but "Alberto si-si" (Senor Jorge) has really taken the pressure off. (My kids were being bullied at school. As you know, there are many more kinds of bully-ing than just the physical kind. )

See? "W" used to tell me that our names were the same size so I had to support him and Cheney, and Wolfy and Rummy and Dougy, and Pauli and Condi and all those other Neocon ragpickers that sent us into this fucking hell. Fuck man, Baghdad Bob was right after all. Who knew? . . . . .Well yeah, okay, okay but they were all liberals, right?)

No time to chat. I'm busy with my book, which, according to my agent, my publisher and Border's is gonna clear it all up. And make me a piss pot full of "walkin' around" money. (Geez, by saying that, I was just kidding, right? Hope I haven't offended anyone over there at Walter Reed.)
Anyway, when the book comes out, I'll be a "First Response Hero" then, instead of "Toad-boy Tenant."
I AM a "Freedom Medal" Winner. after all.

Best
George

(nice crisp left hand salute as THIS fucking suck-ass sleazoid boards that helicopter on the embassy roof . . . . . and, um, those, ah,
three
"lost" infantry guys in Baghdad do NOT!)

Pants Elk says:

It was only slightly less boring rapidly scrolling down this entire thread without reading it than reading it.
I thank god I'm not stuck in an elevator, a bar, (or a war) with you guys.

*shudders, moves on with life*

Wombat says:

Pants, We are all glad we are nowhere near your sorry ass. Get a life!

Noam Chomsky says:

Panties: This is fer you and anyone else who figures an un-titillating off topic remark or two hundred signifies a certain lack of relevance to what might be near and dear to YOU ;-)

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/
article17800.htm

Wombat says:

David

That above comment to Pants Elk wasn't from me.

To whoever did post it I suggest you follow your own advice dickhead. Perhaps you should adopt dickhead as your very own nick & not use others.

Pants Elk says:

Gladder than you realise, Wombat. My ass is doubly sorry for having nail-gun diarrh ... dirahhea ... driaiahhe ... shits right now.
Thnx for the "get a life" tip, though.

chris from luton says:

noam chomsky....or micheal moore for president of the united states of america?

it could'nt get any worse, could it.

Dan says:

Can we please get back to Thailand? Talk about private firearms onership on a dedicated site.

Common Sense says:

Dan,
Can you please shut the fuck up and migrate to another of the hundreds of threads on this site that are talking about Thailand or various other issues rather than throwing out just another unheard bitch fit.

Pants Elk says:

Yeah, Dan, shut the fuck up.

I saw David at Emporium yesterday, btw. He was trying out one of those massage chair dealies. Said to say hi.

NameCaller says:

"To whoever did post it I suggest you follow your own advice dickhead. Perhaps you should adopt dickhead as your very own nick & not use others."

I know you are but what a I???