Death to Mango Sauce

Combover says:

Keep up the good work.

The vitriolic responses are a tad surprising I think given the fairly benign (and diverse) content as compared with many of the sex tourist websites.

Imagine the flak if you set up a link to that short-time calculator!

foolwholaughsatdeath says:

dude, keep it up. love the site and think you have a great sense of humor - i try to check it daily for a laugh or two. Seems to me that a lot of great artists have had death threats against them (Salmon Rushdie for one), so you're in good company.

Prorogue says:

This site rocks. I'm regularly very amused. Keep on rocking.

Jason Herridge says:

The only reason I'd consider killing you, David is if you didn't buy me a beer when we met in Bangkok! However, I'd expect the same in return though... ;0)

Keep up the good work, it's the only website that gets me through my shitty civil service job on a daily basis!

paul says:

god bless you David......its all true,keep up the good work......

Cynic says:

Can you let us know what upset the animal rights activist?

Kel says:

Well, what u wrote must be true for these death- threatening buggers to have such a go at you. But their 'life threatening' mails are a laugh in their own 'right'

Keep up the good work, David

David says:

Cynic - I attracted the wrath of the animal rights activists for a piece I did on Pata Zoo. The rumour about what I did to those pesky orangutans is greatly exaggerated.

http://www.mangosauce.com/archives/000088.html

Tanai Kwai says:

Criticism is one thing, and should be welcomed.

But PeterChotiphan@aol.com ought not to feel so sensitive about the choices made by his mother. I, for one, celebrate her profession.

dvarpala says:

Quote : "..You are mother-fucker a sick man..."
I can't speak for David, however you are right about ME - the thing is, the only mother I ever fucked was yours - and I only did her up the arse.
So, bad luck, you haven't found your father yet.
Keep looking - I'd start with the low-numbered sois on Sukhumwit, if I were you.

Rock on , Dickhead

Bangkok Phil says:

I used to get the odd death threat for Bangkokmouth.com - I think it comes with the territory and you just accept it, and get on with things.
I'm sure that for every email that says "I'm going to find you and kill you" you get twenty emails that say keep up the good work. Those are the ones you focus on.

bahrainboy says:

It seems to me, after two years in the "Land of (bitter) smiles", that the best way to prompt an extreme reaction, is to tell the truth about it. Shining a light into the nooks and crannies of Thai society rarely reveals a hidden beauty. Much of "Unseen Thailand" is, perhaps, best left that way.

seige says:

bah what do these people know, this site rocks, so does Thailand, only disappointment is that I cant buy a mango sauce t shirt or something cheesy like that... hey I'm entitled to be mad!

Bazookajoe says:

This site may hurt people. But then the truth usually does. Good site.

screw says:

Why don't we all chip in for Peter's surgery? Then he can look at his mummy after getting his head out of his arse.

french guy says:

BRAVO!

So good website I just discovered!

Frank.

dana says:

Well, I think death threats are a little over the top. I like this site. But then I like me so that pretty much discounts any compliment to you. Keep up the good site.

oxfordhost says:

death threats? he aint worth it... better to just keep complaining to his hosting company about the racist / sexist / bigot nature of the site and those who post on it.

without running a comprehensive check, I'd guess he hosts with

http://www.oxfordhost.co.uk/

but you could cross reference that with his DNS, see if they work with the hosters.

Registrar of Record: TUCOWS, INC.
Record last updated on 29-Nov-2003.
Record expires on 09-Aug-2004.
Record created on 09-Aug-2003.

Domain servers in listed order:
NS1.IPOWERWEB.NET 64.70.61.130
NS1.IPOWERDNS.COM 12.129.206.202

but you could also just mail a complanit direct and they'll tell you if they host him.

abuse@oxfordhost.co.uk

they are already looking into my complaint, any others that they come across will, I'm sure, make them sit up and take more notice.

I wonder how long till he deletes this post,,,

TANAI KWAI says:

NJW is that you? Why don't these cowards ever leave their own contact info?

(putz)

nope says:

site is hosted at

http://www.ipowerweb.com/contactus/index.html

not oxfordhost

and the emails for abuse are there.

as for leaving contact details look at all the fuckers who spout crap all over this site and never leave an email. reap what you sow?

NJW says:

TK, you obviously find it hard to believe that more than one person dislikes the general tone of disrespect the majority of posters here show for their Thai hosts.

As for your enquiry, the answer is simple. A Thai friend of mine posted comments on here a short while ago about Thai music. He made the mistake of leaving contact info, only for his inbox to fill up with abusive mailings from the oh so "adult" members of this place. Prior to this I had looked in on here a few times, but it was this flood of abuse my friend recieved that prompted me to take a further interest in this place, and maybe see how it's regulars responded to someone who does not share their view.

The results were exactly as I suspected they would be.

Anyone with a genuine interest in Thailand may occasionaly drop in here, but not to gain information about this wonderful country and it's people as this place contains none. The only reason for most people to come here is to wonder at the wet dream fantasies of the regular contributors.

I would recommend that anyone who wants to learn more about the land of smiles pays a visit to www.simply-thai.com where they will discover that there is a lot more to Thailand than bar girls.

Not that you will be interested, ofcourse.

TANAI KWAI says:

"as for leaving contact details look at all the fuckers who spout crap all over this site and never leave an email. reap what you sow?"

Your logic is impeccable.

Surely you can identify a worthier crusade than bloviating against a humorous website lovingly tended by a talented writer? Mango Sauce attracts some sick puppies but it is hardly a factory of evil. Most participants have a pretty solid moral grounding.

What about tackling the situation in Sudan, for starters? Or the treatment of the mentally disabled in China? Aren't you wasting your time here?

(really)

Lobotomy of goodwill says:

It's all good. It's all good. If it is bad, then that's my fault for noticing. Poor visitor.

If I ever seem to critisize, please remind me not to be negative, and to only be positive.

David says:

Don't you think it's a little premature to run crying to my hosting company without voicing a complaint to me first? Better to deal with it like adults.

If anyone has a problem with one of my articles or a reader's comment, then you should email me at the usual address - but please be specific about which passage you want amended or removed.

Please don't assume that I share the views of every contributor. For the record, my partner is Thai and I find comments about Thai "inferiority" deeply offensive.

Thank you

TANAI KWAI says:

NJW, if you followed a live and let live philosophy we would have no problems. But you rarely cast your observations in these terms. So please don't be offended when I respond in kind.

"Not that you will be interested, ofcourse."

That comment exemplifies the problem. You have read my posts and concluded that I am a rank philistine simply because we take different (though not as different as you would imagine) views of the Thai nightlife scene. Though I have left ample evidence of my interests beyond Nana Plaza you cannot hold what you consider to be two contradictory ideas in your mind at once. Is it possible that I may even have a greater command of those aspects of culture and intellectual inquiry you cherish, and in which you would claim expertise? In truth, I don't really care. But I can tell you that some inveterate whoremonger who reads this board certainly does.

You also exhibit little understanding of male lust (especially for more than one partner), since you do not appear to contend with it. For you, giving up certain pleasures is like giving up chicken feet for lent. Have some compassion for those of us wired differently, and who cannot aspire to what you perceive to be your chivalrous nobility and high character. We all have our weaknesses.

By the way, I find it curious that your Thai friend was assailed by hostile emails -- mainly, I suppose, because I have never received such a communication. I guess people get really touchy about their music. (Or, you are bullshitting us and have no credible rationale for visiting Mango Sauce other than your own highly repressed prurient interests.)

Perhaps you could reprint some of these dastardly messages?

(...)

NJW says:

"Most participants have a pretty solid moral grounding."

Which is why they spend their time discussing the best pornography and the merits of prostitution. Which is why they view the Thais as a simple people put here purely to pander to their desires.

BTW, if you're going to use a quote in your arguments, at least use a quote from one of my posts, then you won't look quite so foolish.

I'm also saddened, but not surprised, to find that you think working with and for disabled children in Thailand is wasting my time.

NJW says:

Perhaps you could reprint some of these dastardly messages?

Since they have all been long deleted, no.

I suspect the reason you do not recieve similar has a lot to do with you not being Thai. Take a stroll around and you will find that all to often whenever a Thai presumes to express an opinion they are instantly flamed.

Greg says:

I didn't even know you are Thai.

Greg says:

I'm not sure if you want to get into this or not David, but you mentioned finding comments about Thai inferiority deeply offensive. I grew up in the 70s under the Trudea Liberal government. I was indoctrinated to believe that all differences between men and women (and needless to say races) was 100% due to the environment. Since that time the liberal viewpoint has changed. It's had to due to newly discovered information regarding how men and women truly are different. The point I'm trying to make is that what offends us is part of what is interesting. What exactly is it that offends you? Saying that in general Thais have less curiosity than Germans? Pointing to performance test results? The whole idea of grading people in terms of any developmental framework?

NJW says:

"I didn't even know you are Thai."

Is it your ability to read or your ability to understand that is faulty? Or are you just too damn lazy to read things thoroughly?

David says:

Greg

You are quite correct to assume that I don't want to get into this.

Exploring the differences between Thai and western culture is fun. However, labelling other people as "inferior" is not.

It's offensive to me and it's offensive to many Mango Sauce readers.

TANAI KWAI says:

NJW, you are totally mixed-up, non-responsive and, well, yourself.

Let me premasticate my thoughts and observations thoroughly so we will have no misunderstandings.

"BTW, if you're going to use a quote in your arguments, at least use a quote from one of my posts, then you won't look quite so foolish."

I wasn't talking to you, genius. I was talking to the OTHER bloviator who hates this site and its participants.

"Which is why they spend their time discussing the best pornography and the merits of prostitution."

The world is so much easier to bear when you can remove all the grey tones, isn't it? Makes everything about 50% more simple. You don't like pornography or prostitution and those who partake are evil, right? Case closed.

"Which is why they view the Thais as a simple people put here purely to pander to their desires."

Why bother being fair? Just paint everybody with a broad brush. Keeps your posts nice and concise.

"I'm also saddened, but not surprised, to find that you think working with and for disabled children in Thailand is wasting my time."

As you perhaps realize by now, I was not addressing you but God bless you. This is not the first time you have alluded to this good work. But neither this, nor your personal tragedies (devastating as they would be to anyone) necessarily make you "right" about what is discussed here. Sorry, that's not the way it works. And I wouldn't be doing you any favors if I gave you a pass.

(don't bother responding to this one until you actually respond to the last one; you wouldn't want to be a non-responsive weasel)

John U says:

NJW,

If you express opinions on this site, or on any other, there are people who will disagree with you, and continue an argument ad nauseum. (mentioning no names).

Even if you express no opinions, but just try to make funny comments (funny to the author of course) you will still get adverse comments.

You may well have seen some of the insulting names I was called. However, I never had an insulting email. I put it down to the streak of yellow down some people's backs.

So, although it depresses me to agree with Tanai ;<) , I have to say that I also think that there is little truth in your comments about your Thai friend.

If you wish to back up your argument with examples you must be able to produce the facts.

Greg says:

"However, labelling other people as "inferior" is not."

I never went so far as to say Thais are inferior. I said they have some parts of their culture that are fucked up or in need of work, and some parts that are better. If you think that low IQ makes people inferior, then you could conclude I infered that some groups are inferior. Ya, I do think being smarter is better, but I don't think that the measure of anyone is how smart they are.

It gets touchy. Just how does one compare qualities without grading? Not all differences are just a different stroke for a different folk. Some things are actually better and worse. You don't have to be a colonialist to grade cultures, as there are many cross cultural developmental stages that people go through. For instance there are stages of moral development that people go through, with highly moral people having gone through specific stages and being in a relative minority. It is better, not just different.

TANAI KWAI says:

Greg, I think you just sucked the oxygen out of the room. At least you killed the thread, though.

(...)

David says:

Greg

I never said that you did. I just answered your question.

I hope that Tanai Kwai is right. Can we end this thread here?

Cog says:

Greg's a reformed, brain-washed Canuck? Talk about inferiority complexes! I under-sa-tand.

Your transparent repetitive performance to highlight cultural flaws and weakness is merely a thinly-veiled guise to inflate your own self-esteem (if they only paid me to dish out pop psychology). Acting like a pretentious fucking genius on this site has as much relevance as a fart in a vacuum.

As a friend, if you ever need an excellent Thai proctologist to remove the stick(s) up your ass...call on me. Dana is a pus-filled cunt, so I recommend he sees the first available gynecologist.

In the meantime, I'll be sure to instruct my obsequious Asian brethren to perform gratuitous fellatio on your glorious cock as you gallop upon your high horse to the great Aryan Feast....just don't expect us to swallow.

Greg says:

I'm gonna get flamed for this flame.

NJW - I haven't seen signs in your post that you are capable of rational discussion. You are in good company, as the majority of people in the west are also pre-rational. I'm not pulling that out of my ass either - you can actually study such things, and they have been. Rational discussion includes addressing issues logically and accepting conclusions that are emotionally uncomfortable and not clinging to conclusions that are emotionally comforting. Choosing what you want to be true and then ignoring everything that disagrees with that is boring. Discrediting ideas and actions you don't like by silly associations (such as Hitler!) is boring. You can actually measure and investigate this world by looking at it, and comparing experience with measurable reality. Ideology is for children and fundamentalists.

Author Ken Wilber http://authors.booksunderreview.com/W/Wilber,_Ken/index.html puts just about everything into the perspective of development theory.

Developmental theory says:

oh ya, Wilber puts just about everything into the perspective of development theory. One thing he rails against is the multiculturalist "flatland" worldview that all perspectives are equally valid. The data does not agree. His work is broad ranging and fascinating. Any internet search will also show he is very highly respected and broadly studied.

mr peter says:

NJW wrote:
A Thai friend of mine posted comments on here a short while ago about Thai music. He made the mistake of leaving contact info, only for his inbox to fill up with abusive mailings from the oh so "adult" members of this place. Prior to this I had looked in on here a few times, but it was this flood of abuse my friend recieved that prompted me to take a further interest in this place, and maybe see how it's regulars responded to someone who does not share their view.

Can this really be the same person who has posted little else other than abusive posts ever since he started slagging me off in may?. Or has he become a reformed character after telling us he would not be posting again. I would like to know the name of his 'thai friend' and what the nature od the alleged abuse was re thai music thread. I think I know the one in question. NJW though started to post his abusive comments quite a while before his 'thai friend' Would this be the paranoid character who claimed we did not like thais and that thais were not welcomed here just because someone pointed out the facts he posted were wrong?-peter

NJW says:

Peter, once more you show your ignorance, but this time your paranoia as well.

The friend I refer to was indeed Pik, and he did recieve an e-mail from you, which whilst it was not abusive did have worrying overtones, or so his tutor in London tells me ( I did not read it myself, so cannot comment). However, yours was by no means the only mail he recieved, and the ones he's shown me were abusive and rascist. You just doubted he was Thai because he reckoned he knew more about Thailand than you.

You will also recall that I said I had been here before that time. So Peter, grow up and realise that not everything discussed here is about you.

As to the others, and Greg in particular, if you are going to go on about one race being inferior to another who do you expect to be compared with; Mother Theresa?

John U says:

"Worrying overtones" !!!!!!

Round and round and round we go, up and down, side to side, never ending.

These arguments get more and more tenuous and silly and boring (my opinion I hasten to add, but I am entitled to one).

It's about time certain people grew up and let the biggest kid have the last word because it's been brought up as a spoilt brat and Mummy always let it win the argument.

The father fucked off when it was little because he couldn't stand the little twat.

tonychang says:

oh well David, at least while youre back in England you can catch up on some decent telly....

Combover says:

"Which is why they spend their time discussing the best pornography and the merits of prostitution."

The only pornography discussion I remember was mostly about Dirty Nigel & Hairy Eddie, and generally pretty disapproving in its tone.

I disagree that there is a lot of discussion about the merits of prostitution. Agreed, there is an acceptance that it happens and that people partake of it. However, I don't really think you could label this as a whoremonger's website.

For a start, David's threads are varied, well written and funny. Secondly, there's way too much pompous ego-wanking for you to categorise it with the likes of stickman or worldsexguide.

In fact, I'd guess that if one thing puts people of posting here (Thais and semi-interested farangs alike) it's the fact that too many threads seem to become dominated by a small group of people engaged in discussions which quickly become personal and irrelevant.

I'll get me coat...

Combover says:

Oh, and as for disrespect for Thais, I can see how Greg's endlessly expressed notions of genetic superiority can get up your nose, and how Dana's bomb throwing can wind you up, but I honestly don't see much more to it than that.

Just imagine how you'd feel if you were offended by comments about fat white birds?!

a fat white bird says:

ooh, you are awful...but i like you

baek says:

I think the problem , basically, coes down to the fact that virtually every thread on this site quickly falls into a slagging-off match. "farang" women are always subjected to abuse. Any male supporting them is also abused.

David, would you allow a post reading

"I feel not a whit of sympathy about nigger females being lonely in Thailand. The shoe is on the other foot here. The nigger Ladies can no longer treat Men like doormats and get away with it."

or maybe

"jewish women suck almost as much ass as paul. i definitely agree with claw."

would you?

no? then why do you allow

"western women suck almost as much ass as paul. i definitely agree with claw."

and

"I feel not a whit of sympathy about Farang females being lonely in Thailand.
The shoe is on the other foot here.The Farang Ladies can no longer treat Men like doormats and get away with it."

or maybe

"Well it aint my board chum so i never started all the falang bitch bashing threads did I. Is it hostile to ask someone how much they weigh? oh dear you are a sensitive little soul then I would say and if falang bitch bashing upsets you why not avoid such threads altogether?-peter"

is ok, so, is

"Well it aint my board chum so i never started all the nigger bitch bashing threads did I. Is it hostile to ask someone how much they weigh? oh dear you are a sensitive little soul then I would say and if nigger bitch bashing upsets you why not avoid such threads altogether?-peter"

ok as well?

I am sorry - i apologise - for having to use graphic examples but David there are a lot of posters on your website that advocate oen hostility and hatred towards certain groups of people.

To mail you and ask for offensive posts to be removed would be fruitless as there are so many. Why don't you try turning off comments and see what happens?

To be blunt, this is your website. If you will not police it, your ISP will. You simpy cannot, in this day and age, and under the laws of the country in which you host your site, advocate racial and sexist hatred.

To this end I have been in touch with them and they are now looking into my complaint.

Yes, my email is real. Feel free, all of you, to send hate mail. It will serve as ample ammunition in my complaint.

Baek.

baek says:

apologies also for my spelling mistakes. I can find no way to edit my comments.

baek

Greg says:

Your anology is interestng Baek, but overstated. You can't use the N word in ANY sentence.

For instance:
"Pass the butter" is ok
"Niger, pass the butter". is not.

The word Jew also can in some cases have similar derogatory undertones. In these cases it isn't the group being singled out that is the exception, but the historical use of the word that does it. The word becomes the slander.

Personally I see no problem with pointing out the various perceived characteristics of groups. A lot of what is said on this board goes further into hateful insulting that dismisses the value western women. That seems extreme and childish to me. I assumed it did to most high school graduates. A lot of posters here are hateful and childish.

I doubt anything that has been said on this board legally qualifies as hate speach though. Don't you have to advocate violence for that? Hate is still a legal emotion that can legally be expressed.

Not Greg says:

Greg,

If you continue posting, the name "Greg" might soon have "derogatory undertones" also.

Examples:
"XXX, you're as full of shit as a Greg!"

Greg says:

Ya, using one consistent name does carry risks. I force myself to do it, as posting anonymously allows for one to express many fragmented voices with no culpability. I'd prefer to train my mind to towards cohesion, even at the risk of everyone knowing who the jerk is.

You obviously have a different approach.

baek says:

Greg, you are missing a small point. You say:

'For instance:
"Pass the butter" is ok
"Niger, pass the butter". is not.'

And you are correct. However, I was replacing a word, not adding to a sentence. I used an extreme case - the N word - to show how what we are seeing here is only one step removed from the historical context and path that the n-word took. 30 years ago you could turn on the tv and see black people as the butt of jokes, the n-word was accepted as a term.

"farang bitch bashing" is every bit as pointed and directed as "n-bitch bashing" and the men that use such statements are utterly ignorant. This community gives support and virtual-back slapping to those that degrade white western women.

do you think that is ok?

As for advocating violence, I do not believe that the law sees that as a requirement for hate crime. There are many forms of crime other than violent. I would suggest that the way in which white western women are treated on this board is mostly certainly classed as "hate". I cannot find the post right now, but it was a direct response to one of Davids writings and it was simply something like "oh yes keep putting those farang bitches down".

That simply is not ok. Or do you disagree? Perhaps in 30 years this language will also be unacceptable and some of the more ignorant men around here would be correctly labelled as being what they are - ignorant, blind, sexist, racist pigs.

And no, before anyone points it out, I am not female, a S N A G, a feminazi or any other term you care to dream up. I am just a guy who believe's he can speak up for what he believes to be right and not be scared off by mindless western men who live with blinkers over their eyes.

Baek.

Combover says:

Baek - farang women are subjected to a lot of derogatory remarks, mostly relentless tart, bitch, feminazi references, and this does quickly become tedious. They are boring to read and unfortunately also implicate others here as also being bitter and full of hate.

However, farang women are generally not particularly vulnerable members of society in need of censorship on a site like this. Censorship would be going much too far. It would be a very boring place if we couldn't have a joke about a fat lardy arse, the fact that we enjoy the tables being turned now and again, or express a preference about someone we fancy. For God's sake - I'm more than prepared to take the sad loser, baldy, fatbelly references in my stride.

I suggest only truly abusive or offensive comments are deleted, such as those where you substituted "nigger" for "farang" above. Different league of abuse, and to fail to differentiate in your post is to devalue your argument.

Combover says:

By the way Baek, what on earth is wrong with the following example you used above?

"I feel not a whit of sympathy about Farang females being lonely in Thailand. The shoe is on the other foot here.The Farang Ladies can no longer treat Men like doormats and get away with it."

baek says:

Combover, I ask you, are

"farang bitch bashing", and, "oh yes keep putting those farang bitches down" acceptable to you? or should comments like that be removed?

If they are not acceptable to you then we agree. the fundamental point of all my writing has been that if David will not police his site, others will and the results will be far more extreme.

There is a world of difference between "have a joke about a fat lardy arse" (which, probably, no-one would mind) and the full on, personal comments directed at the women (and men who dare to support them) who dare to express an opinion on this website. Again, I can quote:

"Congratulations, Kevin, you just won the pussy award. Now go do the dishes, bitch."

"I just love it when white bitches and their she-male helpers blow their tops."

"CANNOT GET ENOUGH OF THIS STUFF!Hey feminazi white bitches! You rule US and UK and parts of Europe. Here you are nothing! Get it!"

Do you feel these are suitable comments to make to people who are doing just as many others are on this site - expressing their views?

Oh, and Combover, I appriciate that you are one of the more mature posters here who does not feel the need to insult everyone.

John U says:

Baek,

Your reaction to some of us venting our spleen about farang women is rather extreme.

I would hazard a guess that you are fairly young and haven't suffered yet from a woman of your own race doing her best to grind you down over 20 or 30 years.

You haven't yet been told that everything wrong is your fault, and everything right is down to her. You "always" do things which are bad and you "never" do things which are good.

And you haven't suffered from the ignominy of losing half your hard earned assets in the divorce which was agreed due to her adultery.

And what was the thing that drove her to throw her legs in the air with other guys for 25 years? You were "never" there for her. Working too hard for our future.

So give us a break. Let us have our complaints.

After all we are (some of us - not all by any means) refering to white women in the "civilised" western world. Not one race, all of them, Brits, Yanks, Froggies, Aussies, Germans, Belgians, Scandinavians........

We (men) have given them the power, by changing the laws in their favour, to tear our lives apart.

And remember, we are talking here about our own mothers, sisters and daughters.

Unless you are a homosexual the chances are that you will suffer the same fate eventually. Hopefully, when that time comes you will be able to have your own moan without the thought police coming for you.

Combover says:

Baek - to be honest I don't particularly like it. I don't really see the need. Why a preference for Thai women has to extend into general hatred of western women I don't know.

But it probably says more about the people who post those comments than anything else. And I'm not in favour of censorship unless the comments become extreme.

And whilst the examples you gave are abusive I think it's a little prissy to go running to the ISP on behalf of a group of people who don't really require your protection. Especially when they probably care little anyway about the views of the old, bald, fat sad losers (as they most offensively often seem to characterise all users of this site!) making the comments.

John U says:

Baek,

I really don't believe that the guys who made the comments you referred to are deadly serious, but you obviously do.

As I said, they are our mothers, daughters, sisters etc. and we love them, but we can also moan about them when we've been badly done by.

Rather than get offended when I hear comments made about my daughter by her ex husband, I find it quite amusing because I know EXACTLY how he feels.

I believe you are overreacting, but I know nobody can convincve you of that. I hope your thought police will let you have their report after they finish their investigation. And when they tell you they have no reason to take any action will you then let us know?

baek says:

John U, I am 36, Korean and divorced.

All three of you make some valid points, hwoever you all avoid my fundamental question. Is it ok to be nasty, show hatred towards people who post their views on this website? All of my quotes are from people doing just that.

I understand that by using a broad brush you are also covering mothers and sisters but I do not see one comment in which you call your mother a stupid fat farang feminazi bitch.

You are not venting your spleen about farang "women" when you direct it at one woman in particular. You are not, then, using a broad brush. You are being very specific. And you are also saying that this one person you are posting about, or in response to, is one of many, just like her.

I do not, I think, have a problem with anyone having a moan about their own circumstance. That is entirely understandable. But go back and read my posts- this is not what I refer to.

exactly how does "I just love it when white bitches and their she-male helpers blow their tops." refer in any way to this posters experiences?

it doesnt.

do you understand? at all? I cannot make it much clearer.

baek

Greg says:

By the way Baek, your threat to get the board cencored is toothless. In fact I offer to host the site for free (well, in exchange for a few little banner ads) on my own dedicated server. So you could just complain to me then.

Yes, I disagree with both the tone and substance of the female bashing, much of the time. I would prefer not to see or hear it. But it doesn't approach requiring being censored. If David chose to run a more tightly moderated board, that would up to him, but I agree with combover that no group is being threatened. No thought police required. And I liked John's post. I've been through a divorce from the perfect example of what all the negative posts are complaining about. Never again. Never.

baek says:

you all talk, talk, talk so much, but never answer my questions.

is it ok to be nasty to an individual on the board for no reason other than they are female and western?

baek.

David says:

Baek

Two facts:

1. You have complained to my ISP about "offensive" comments on Mango Sauce.

2. You have written the single most offensive comment ever posted to Mango Sauce.

What does that make you?

Greg says:

"The campus has no need for policement of prejudice," political scientist Martin Gruberg has observed. "Universities should confront offensive ideas by rebuttal, not by suppression."

Combover says:

"is it ok to be nasty to an individual on the board for no reason other than they are female and western?"

Being "nasty" to someone is not a crime. The group of which you speak - farang women - is unlikely to suffer undue harm from a few "nasty" anonymous comments.

I may not subscribe to the views of those who so sweepingly deride farang women, but I am comfortable that they should be allowed to say it, as long as it does not become threatening, violent, aggressive, directed towards specific individuals (there may be other circumstancees but I cannot be bothered to think about them). If they choose to make such comments and come across as utter tits in the process then so be it.

If I don't like what they say, I am free to deliver a mild (or even a "nasty") rebuke, ignore it or go elsewhere.

bae says:

I made a post that asked for the differences between well-known racial slurs and the actions and writings of the posters on this website. I made it clear I did not like what I was writing but I could see no other way to explain how I feel towards the level of your returning audience and participating members. I used certain words in order to - and I admit this - attempt to shock the more lower level of your readership into thinking. Something I am now sure has failed.

Suggesting my post was directly offensive as opposed to unformly descriptive and comparitive is to suggest that I set out to offend someone here, which i did not, unlike the majority of your posters.

Yes, i did complain to your ISP. I do not apologise for this and it is as within my rights as a person to do so as it is within your rights to govern what is on your website and it is within the rights of your posters to post whatever they wish to. And, just like the real world, it is within everyone's "right" to commit crime.

But sometimes there is a price to pay, no?

So what do points 1) and 2) make me?

Perhaps just someone who thinks you, as the owner of this site should show a little more responsibility for the whole of your readership, and not just those who make you giggle. Did you actually read the TOS of your hosters? I think not.

It is not censorship, it is guidelines. maybe you should set some?

baek

Greg says:

I recall the case of a professor who asked his subjects to consider the implications of the word "nigger". He used it in a sentence or two, and asked people to see how it made them feel, and the implications of the word, etc. He asked his students to think. As I recall some of his black students took offence and he was forced to resign for using that word.

The moral of that story to me is that thinking is hard. Associating is easy. Like associating harsh comments with slander. Associating snide hateful remarks with an abuse against a group. I think the onus on you is to explain why your group needs protection.

Greg says:

avid Howard was forced to resign from his position as the director of the Office of Public Advocate when he used the word ìniggardlyî in describing how he must manage the finances for his position. The word niggardly only means ìstingyî or ìmiserlyî and has nothing to do with anything racial. Yet, because his use of the word offended people, he was forced to resign. (link) Another example may be found in an academic setting where Kenneth E. Hardy, a Caucasian adjunct instructor at Jefferson Community College was removed from his position as a teacher for holding a class in which the word ìniggerî was used in discussing racial slurs

http://www.nacua.org/documents/HardyVJeffersonCommunityCollege.html

Edward Debono has proposed that we teach people not just facts, but how to think. The above cases show that this is clearly required. Associations are often completely irrelevent. Like associating Hitler with genetic engineering.

I suggest that you haven't demonstrated a link between the speech you find offensive and any need to cencor that speech.

David says:

Baek

Here are two of your comments:

"To mail you and ask for offensive posts to be removed would be fruitless as there are so many. Why don't you try turning off comments and see what happens?"

"It is not censorship, it is guidelines."

You try to bully me into shutting down this forum and then you have the cheek to deny that you're advocating censorship.

What does that make you?

baek says:

Well greg, i guess you just made the 2nd most offensive post ever.

I have not said that my "group" (although I didn't know I was in a group) needs protection. I have just asked why it is ok to show outward hatred towards people who express opinions on this site. Noone will answer. As you said, thinking is hard.

If the posters managed to keep some resemblence of manners and coherant thought (as, for once, appears to generally be happening on this thread) and made posts that actually added to the thread then fine, i can accept that.

I just simply do not understand why people need to react like this. David takes no steps to control the things that are said and, under law, he should. If he does not, it falls to his ISP.

I have found many things offensive here. I do not have to belong to that social group to find something offensive. If that were the case, the western world wouldn't help the 3rd world, because they were not part of that group. Nothing would work, if we couldn't look out for each other. Lets face it, generally, people don't do that.

I don't see why David should add to that by allowing the offensive posts he does.

So David, you said that people could mail you and ask for insulting posts to be removed?

Then I ask for you to remove all posts (mine included, obviously) from all threads that are either:

a) pointless hate

b) pointless offensive comment

c) hatful replies to non-hateful comments (i.e. uncalled for)

d) any post that is derogatory to a social group and obviously not meant in humor.

Will you honor your statement and do that?

baek

stu_$ says:

i hav said this before but i'll say it again
my grandfather died fighting in africa in WW2
he was 19... but because of his sacrififce i enjoy the privilege of free speech,
which is a powerful thing...
theres lot's of post's on here on i dont like,
some even piss me off,

but thats the beauty of this site , by and large david is a gracious host who allows the free exchange of ideals , no matter the topic

most of the time , this site is a funny place
i 've read it from top to toe...
i wish there was more like it in the world
if you dont like it , why are you here ?
why keep coming back ?
no one wants to hear your bitchin,
thast why we came to thailand , to get away from soft cocks like you...
oh , thats probably why you are divorced
and if you disagree, then f@ck off

Greg says:

> I have not said that my "group" (although I didn't know I was in a group) needs protection.

By "your" I thought you would understand that I meant the group that you were trying to protect from hateful speech. Your, as in your pet cause, not as in your tribe.

> I have just asked why it is ok to show outward hatred towards people who express opinions on this site. Noone will answer. As you said, thinking is hard.

I did answer. I said I don't like much of the comments, but that I find censorship worse than putting up with seeing peoples sloppy and agressive words. I'm not sure how I can be more clear. You want a rule that something is either OK or not OK. No one can give you a yes or no answer to that desire because you are asking a question that is pretty well meaningless. Is is OK to live a life of quiet meaningless dreary solitude? Yes or no doesn't enter into it. We can talk of causing harms and benefits, but then you have to look at the harms of trying to police people into not causing harm. People have conflicting needs and attitudes, and the Big Brother attitude you so quickly take up leads to big problems.

> If the posters managed to keep some resemblence of manners and coherant thought (as, for once, appears to generally be happening on this thread) and made posts that actually added to the thread then fine, i can accept that.

Ya, I'd prefer that too. This is no philosophy forum, that's for sure. A lot of garbage. Taking up the cause of being garbageman for other peoples words is a lost cause. What are you going to do? Like I said, you can't get the site shut down. Believe me, nowadays it is possible to get bullet proof hosting, so that even sites that use spam to advertise can stay up. I can and will keep this site up if my services are requested and it comes down to that. But of course it won't as your comments are extreme and reactionary and no ISP will take you seriously.

Baek, people have so many negative qualities and do so much harm. It's good that you want to help uplift people, and I agree fully with your intention. But your method is so 90s.

Godzilla says:

As a white farang woman, I have to say that when I read some of the comments (please note I say some, not all) quite offensive. I never really had a problem with farang men and their bar girls, I didn't look down on them, I just thought ok, it works for them, fair enough. I understand that many men find women that meet their needs here and vice versa. Many thai women prefer to have a farang boyfriend because in many cases they are treated with more respect... or so they tell me.

Unfortunately since I've discovered your site and started reading the comments, I have to be honest that it changed my view. Now I walk along the streets and look at the farang men with bar girls and feel shit because I know what he thinks of someone like me and in turn I think he is a pig. Which is ridiculous because I've taken a generalisation and applied it generally too.

So, you see it doesn't help no matter how in jest these comments are made, when you read them on a forum you can't tell whether the guy is laughing or being serious about his comments. I wish this hadn't completely changed my perception of the guys out here, but unfortunately it has.

And if this has done this to me, it has no doubt affected the majority of other farang women that have onto your site. Then it just becomes a viscious circle, doesn't it? The farang women trying to defend themselves come across aggressively just proving to everyone else that look "we were right... these women are all head cases"

I don't know... it just seems a shame that it gets to this, don't you think?

mr peter says:

Is BAEK in reality another poster? I notice he/she has cut and pasted a quote of mine but inserted the N word in order to make a point. This is a pretty low thing to do to change falang bitches into N bitches. I never used the N word and never saw in mentioned here until BAEK started to use it. This forum started out as a fun place which I hope nobody took too seroiusly, now the crybaby offensive police are running to ISP's about a bit of bitch bashing and trying to make a case out for us being racists too by falisifying posts. Blimey you would think we were all a bunch of pedos or devil worshipers, anyone fancy a bit of baby sacrificing later on?-peter

Combover says:

Baek - you did not ask "why it is ok to show outward hatred towards people who express opinions on this site",

you asked:

"is it ok to be nasty to an individual on the board for no reason other than they are female and western"

I did try to answer what was a poorly phrased question. But will try again. Can you clarify, what do you mean "ok"?

Is it nice (no - it's not), or should it be allowed (yes - it should, with the caveats I mentioned above).

Anyway you seem to have a very low threshold both for what you consider "hatred", and the level at which you are caused offence. I don't believe that even the stronger examples you quoted above remotely illustrate hatred, despite some forceful language being deployed. Tedious and unnecessary maybe, but hardly hate propaganda.

And as I mentioned above, I see nothing hateful or offensive whatsoever in the example you quoted earlier:

"I feel not a whit of sympathy about Farang females being lonely in Thailand. The shoe is on the other foot here.The Farang Ladies can no longer treat Men like doormats and get away with it."

Perhaps you can say exactly what you find so hateful or offensive in this.

.

Godzilla says:

If you read Baek's comment a bit more carefully you'd see that he was making a point about the N word, he wasn't saying that you'd written it. Duh!

Greg says:

Hi Godzilla. I doubt that the majority of Falangs feel negatively towards western women. I prefer Falang women myself. Of course some Thai traights I also appreciate and prefer, and it's fun to compare which traits in which culture are appreciated and which are not. The western woman bashers here, are, I think, the minority. Also I don't think there are that many posters posting here, so I don't think its a fair representation of the falang male point of view.

While I also really don't like the one sidedness and venom with which the anti western female points of view are expressed, occasionally there is a mention of something that comes close to cultural critique hidden amongst the bitter lashing out. I think that is worthwhile.

baek says:

Mr Peter, once again you show us exactly how pointless the regular posters can be. You didn't even read my post which quoted you before blasting out a reply, did you?

Maybe you'd like to go back and read it, to get some perspective on what I was saying.

baek

mr peter says:

Hey I aint got time to read all this crap too closely- meant to be working!!. Just like to say fuck asylum seekers, beggars, dole cheats, Islamic funadamentalists, PC wankers, oh and of course fat opinionated falang bitches while still able to, have a nice day-peter

baek says:

Combover. By "ok" I mean is it acceptable "to be nasty to an individual on the board for no reason other than they are female and western".

Though english is not my mother tongue, I am not sure why that is unclear?

But don't worry about answering it, it is clear I am in the minority in my views.

Still, I would like to know if David will remove all the posts I find offensive?

baek

mr peter says:

Wish I did have the time to read it all, but why should he remove all the posts YOU find offensive? if he did I expect that there would be fuck all left to laugh at-peter

Greg says:

Western negative:
- bossy
- air of superiority among the women's study crowd
- demanding of equal status for what they want and unequal for what they don't. Equal pay but not equal millitary draft. "You chop the vegetables and vacuume and change the diapers half the time, AND you do the house and vehicle maintenance and insure a backbone of financial stability all the time.
- basically prostitutes, the same as women in any country
- use sexual attractiveness as a weapon for dominance.
- in what I by definition consider the lower classes, will snub you if you they don't want to fuck you but you want to fuck them.

Western positive:
- a desire for lifelong education
- a passion for many things
- strong sense of aesthetic appreciation
- broadly educated
- a wide appreciation for the music of one's own culture
- can communicate with about most things much more easily.
- more emotionally developed
- capable of discussing personal issues with sensitivity, humility and assertiveness
- honest
- understand irony and analogy

I should get back to my work, or I'd work on the positive and negative traits of Thai women. I'd sure love to read other peoples lists for falang and thai men and women.

Greg says:

Hi Baek. You say "By "ok" I mean is it acceptable "

Acceptable to who? You must understand that westerners are individuals. We aren't a hive.

mr peter says:

Western positive:? around where I live in the UK this would include the following additions to describe the lovely girls of the area:
- a desire for lifelong education- most leave school ASAP have kids ASAP (if not mum already) get on the housing list ASAP
- a passion for many things- mostly cheap cider and soap operas on TV, also tatoos, chips and having kids named jade
- strong sense of aesthetic appreciation- if asked what aesthetic was they would probably say someone who don't believe in god innit
- broadly educated-knew the facts of life aged 7, knows how to jump start a car and how to lie down the housing office
- a wide appreciation for the music of one's own culture- especially stuff from the Bronx and L.A.
- can communicate with about most things much more easily.-they speak english, well something of the sort
- more emotionally developed-act like 12 year olds instead of 10 year olds
- capable of discussing personal issues with sensitivity, humility and assertiveness-that wayne is such a good shag in he right ya know what a mean
- honest-will ask you what you looking at in the chip shop queue then say fuck off you pervert
- understand irony and analogy-something you do with the washing, other one probably when you get hay fever init.

hey it's lunch time-peter

Greg says:

I think I get it now, Baek. You think that is something is bad, it should be stopped. That is what rules are for. You think the discussion is about deciding whether something is bad or not.

Others here are pointing out to you a wider picture.

First off, good and bad are subjective interpretations. Good or bad to who? You find some comments insulting, others see no insult. You find some horrendously offensive, others find the comment just stupid.

Secondly, as combover pointed out, good or bad in what way? Bad because YOU feel bad if others are insulted? Bad because others might be harmed emotionally? Bad because other's might be harmed physically?

Thirdly, you have to consider the merit and demerits of your proposed solution of banning speech that YOU find offensive. Is there any downside to regulating free speech? Should the downside of regulation be weighed against the downside of free speech? Speech leading to a high degree of harm should be regulated for the public good This is why we can agree that it is illegal to yell out "Fire" in a crowded theater. But it is not illegal to call your little sister a spoiled little brat, even if it does hurt her feelings.

The world you live in needs only rules. It is very fundamentalist. Very narrow. There is no God up there with a set of commandments that lead the righteous who stay within the allotted corridors to harmony and the promised land. There is no white OK and black not OK. There are a multitude of factors and perspectives to allow if you truly want to be of benefit. Otherwise you'll just be a big insensitive bully.

In other words, the world is a rough place. It is born from chaos and sustains itself through carnage. Our minds are limited, and can not fathom the correct order. Too much order is deadly. Just think of any highly centralized socially controlled state, and examine how active their art scene is. I don't want to live in your Utopia.

Niall says:

I really don't know what the complainers are getting all humpy about. This site is like Playschool compared to some on the web which are nothing short of gynecological.

mr peter says:

gynecological? thats a girl rap crew innit from detroit? wicked man-peter

NJW says:

Baek,

Well done for trying, even though you are arguing against derogatory comments about Farang women and I am arguing about derogatory comments about Thai women, we are essentially on the same side.

However, you will have seen that, despite trying to disguise their comments, your opponents are basically just insulting you. There are two reasons for this:-

1) They have no real argument, only contempt for anyone who disagrees with them.

2) You said that you are Korean. This means that they feel so very superior to you as they are sophisticated westerners and you are a poor, uneducated Asian. No disrespect to you, my friend, but that is the rascist mindset of these people.

David, you have said that you find certain comments made deeply offensive. It's your site, why don't you do something about it?

Stu_$, if you care to visit the Commonwealth War Graves cemetary at Kanchanaburi you will find, amongst the many, the name of my uncle. I say this to emphasise that you are not the only one who lost a family member in WW II. I wonder how your grandfather and my uncle would feel if they knew that the freedom they died to preserve was now being used to defend the filth they died fighting?

I doubt, though, that many of you will ever visit Kanchanaburi, to the best of my knowledge there are no sex shows or brothels there. Only a silent and beautiful memorial to the thousands who died on the railway. American, Australian, British, Dutch and Thai.

Greg says:

It's hopeless. It really is. What do you say to a post like the above? Nothing you can say will have any effect. Like trying to communicate with a telephone pole.

NJW - we don't react negatively to you because of your heritage. There may be other reasons. I have mine.

Who get's more negative reactions - you or me? I haven't had one positive reaction to anything I've posted. Grow the fuck up.

Greg says:

Wow, little flash of insight - now I know why brit and jewish and greek males are always insulting each other. I used to think it was merely crude one upmanship, but now I think it must be some collective ego strengthening bonding ritual, like hazing into a University. To be able to withstand ego blows and still feel part of the in crowd is an achievment.

mr peter says:

Oh God get the violins out guys, another tragic death in the NJW family being brought up, what it's got to do with his obsession though I'm not sure -peter

stu_$ says:

to NJW,
matter of a fact, im goin 2 kanchanaburi next week
will look out for your uncles name, i know from my dad that granpa was a bloke known for his humor,

they used to sneek into german camps to steal avgas and petrol, not for vehicles mind you...
they poured it over their beer bottles to cool the beer in the desert !

personally, i dont mind anyone taking an opposin view or taking the piss , most of the people here do and make me laugh in the process...

but i dont understand people getting shirty
like they have some sand in their vagina
they go on about politics and equality blah blah

come on , lighten up, this is mango sauce.com
not 60 minutes
if i wanted to listen to mindless droaning
i'd befriend an air-conditioner

Combover says:

NJW - I don't know how you could construe the direct responses to Baek as insulting in any way.

Myself and Greg in particular have repeatly attempted to directly address his comments. Personally I disagree with Baek but do not hold him in contempt. I am a little exasperated, granted, perhaps because I feel if anything there is a lack of respect or attempt to hear these arguments from his side.

Do you find the concept of disagreement difficult to understand? Insults, contempt and racist mindset did not come in to it, until you mentioned them.

And this!

"I wonder how your grandfather and my uncle would feel if they knew that the freedom they died to preserve was now being used to defend the filth they died fighting?"

Talk about language of hate. And I don't think the statement even makes sense. Exactly which filth did your uncle die fighting who are now being defend the right to freedom of speech?

Do you defend your right to publicly label me filth (feel free - I would defend your right too if it's what you believe), whilst simultaneously wanting to suppress my opinion because it offends you?

Mike says:

Could we involve Religions and politics to make this discussion even more ridiculous?

Example: In 1844, Mormon leader Joseph Smith, along with his brother Hyrum, are shot and killed by a mob while in jail at Carthage, Illinois.

Besides, just a reminder: most falang women are fat, arrogant, oppressive, egocentric but still manage to be boring.

japio says:

Baek,

To me you seem a reasonable guy who is trying to make a point. Although your point is clear, not many agree with you in this "discussion". I for one strongly believe in freedom of speech. I myself have my hart on my tongue so to speak and it does sometimes put me into trouble. Sure some of the guys here are lowlifes, but there seem to be a lot of well educated and reasonable guys too. Educated people can disagree on issues don"t you think? What is the point in arguing for the sake of arguing? Every single day a lot more offensive things are happening and being written everywhere. You should just accept that the majority does not agree with you and forget about it.

NJW

Get a life. You seem to live on another planet. Your arguments do not make sense to anybody. Why don't you just disappear from this discussion and spend your precious energy the children thta you work with. They deserve your attention, not us whoremongers etc.

NJW says:

"Do you defend your right to publicly label me filth....."

Combover, the filth to which I refer is the rascist crap such as: "Thai girls are not normal. They are kids who never grow up." "Thais wear a mask, and they put it forward as their soul." "And the truth is that Thais are not deeply nuanced, deeply sensitive, or proud." ".....work of any form is despised, and the harder it is the more it is despised. There is no 'work ethic' here, only money and outward show is valued, and the highest goal of any Thai is to be wealthy enough not to work, hence the high level of prostitution."

I found these quotes in just 5 minutes of looking through one thread. Imagine how many similar one could find if one looked thoroughly. If you wish to associate yourself with these sentiments, then yes, I would label you filth. But as I have yet to find a post of yours where you do, then I don't.

Remove the word Thai from these quotes and substitute the word "nigger" or "yid" and everyone would accept that they were rascist. But Baek has already done so, and all he got for his pains was flak for using the "n" word.

Stu_$ 6148109 Pvt. J Wilkinson. As you go in the main entrance he's about 10 rows up on the right. Sorry to be vague, but it's been quite a while since I've been. If you find him, say "Hello" for me.

baek says:

NJW:

"David, you have said that you find certain comments made deeply offensive. It's your site, why don't you do something about it? "

because if he does, and if he removes only my comments he'll look like an utter hypocrit who supports the thoughts of the worst of his readership.

if he removes all the posts, he won't have a readership.

baek.

Greg says:

So cultural critisism is bad? "Racist"

Whatever. Why not just address the insults, instead of going running to Mommy.

Anonymous says:

"Mommy mommy, Billy called me stupid! Waaah! Waaah! Billy is bad! Do Something!"

Grow up boy. Take care of and defend yourself. Defent your ARGUMENTS not your pride.

Do you even understand what this means:
"Thais wear a mask, and they put it forward as their soul."

Do you agree or disagree?

Why do you agree?

Why do you disagree?

Being offended is offensive.

David says:

Baek

Finally you are giving a little consideration to how a public access forum should be moderated. Imagine yourself in my position and then answer this question.

What would you do if someone posted a dodgy comment to your forum but another contributor posted a well-argued and interesting reply?

a) Delete the original posting - leaving the reply without any context.

b) Delete both postings (or perhaps the entire thread).

c) Shut down the forum.

Greg says:

You know when you should be offended, NJW, is when people stop insulting you, and start treating you like a child who should be protected. That's called reverse racism, and it means people don't trust you to be smart enough to defend yourself.

baek says:

David,

For one I would not allow anonymous posting. You use MT, you can do that with the click of a mouse.

But.

You are right, what would you do. This is why I think you need guidlines. Let it be known what you will, and will not allow on your website.

I do wonder what kind of interesting reply you could imagine to some of your readers, though.

It occurs to me that you need more control. If I were you I would turn all comments off and install a forum - there are good, free ones. Here you coudl ensure people registered to post. When people have to go throguh registration, ensure they have a real email address (not a webmail, it's a common requriement) and ensure IP logging is on. it would be simple to turn that "comments" link into a "talk about this in the forum" link.

You can set all your guidlines in the TOS of the forum and then you have the ability to decided, once and for all, what is and is not acceptable to you, on your wesbite. Furthermore it would work the other way. You could actively put warnings that some material may not be suitable for some people. Basically you can give yourself some kind of protection for what you host, instead of allowing complete access to each and every person to write whatever they want.

In my opinion you need to control both sides of the argument - people who writet rubbish and people who are offended by said rubbish.

IMHO a forum would do exactly that. MY does not offer the level of control you need.

That is what I would do.

baek says:

so many errors, sorry. MT does not allow for comment editing! A forum would :)

obviously I meant MT instead of MY.

all other typos... should be easy enough to read around!

baek

Greg says:

Baek, this whole site is structured around comments to Davids writing. It is a forum, with each thread of the forum being under his original post. Re-structuring that could possibly loose him his readership.

Registering to post also doesn't do a lot. Nor does IP logging. Anyone can get around both those things using publicly available socks proxies and free email accounts.

Your big brother attitude frightens me. You are a fundamentalist.

David says:

Baek

Thanks for a more thoughtful response but please bear in mind that Mango Sauce is a blog and not a forum. Any improvements will have to be accommodated within the Movable Type content management software. It's the best in the business so I'm surprised that you dismiss it so casually.

I'm not convinced that a policy document will deter people from posting dodgy comments or that a warning will prevent visitors from reading them.

I already have all the control I need to moderate the site. The pressing issues are ones of judgement rather than technology.

You still haven't answered my question about what you would do if an off-colour comment stimulated an interesting and worthwhile discussion.

TANAI KWAI says:

Baek,

You are scary and, like NJW, you have an agenda well beyond what you explicitly announce.

While it is unfortunate that you have come to this site, you are at least rendered fairly harmless by your activities here. I shudder to think what you would be involved in were this bizarre activity not keeping you off the streets.

We are all adults here. I do not think you are able to appreciate the self-regulating nature of this forum, the varied nature of the readership, or the importance of relative anonymity to the free exchange of ideas. Nor do you have any inkling of the work that goes into creating a little oasis like this.

And since you are new here, you wouldn't know that David DOES prune various kinds of posts when it makes sense. And he is an excellent judge of when this is appropriate, which is why we return. You, my friend, would be a SHITTY judge of this.

Why don't you go and start your own site and we'll all promise to visit? Rather than dream of censoring others why not create better content to lure us all to the path of righteousness? You and NJW can write essays on equality, polemics against prostitution, perhaps a piece on the importance of sharing the housework -- whatever suits your fancy. If it's good stuff, I'll be first in line!

(...)

John U says:

Baek,

I didn't know you were Korean until you answered to my piece about divorce, but I was surprised. As you were defending white women I assumed you were a farang yourself. So maybe you don't have the experience and pain of a farang divorce. I'll tell you this; you'll never do it twice unless you're a masochist.

As for your pontificating to David about how he should run his site - that is extremely arrogant of you. He should run his site as he damn well pleases. It is his site not yours. He has his standards, I know that because he sometimes deletes words he finds offensive. So for fucks sake leave him be.

Godzilla, you shouldn't take the comments here too seriously. As someone said previously there are only one or two people who make those derogatory comments about farang women. I suspect if they see you walking down Sukhumvit (assuming you are fairly attractive) they will not turn their heads away. Being a hot blooded male is a non negotiable trait, and although they can spout rubbish on a site like this, it is only, I think a bit of a release valve. Take no notice.

You've heard the quotation "methinks they protest too much" well this is a case in point.

Fact is though that you can't get a farang woman as attentive to you - even if you pay for their services - so it is very pleasant to come to Thailand for that experience. I know, I am that guy.

So maybe farang women will learn from the many guys going out there and change their approach a little.

I hope so.

TANAI KWAI says:

Yes, Godzilla, allow me to add my name to the growing list of members in good standing of F.W.L.A.* who are also devotees of Thai feminine beauty.

But I must say the name "Godzilla" doesn't exactly create a stirring in the loins.

(*Farang Women Lovers Anonymous)

baek says:

David,

MT is good, yes, one of the best user-installable systems, but it does not allow for much comment control. This is why I gave the forum ideas (meaning in addition to the MT blog) or, at the very least, some kind of warning page about content. I am not sure why you say all changes must be made within MT... As I assume you host on UNIX and run CGI, you can use any other s/w you wish alongside and full integrated.

i could not directly answer your questions because - as im sure you know - none of them had satisfactory answers. hence i offered a alternative view for you. Do I expect you to implement it? of course not, you may not have the tech skill, or the inclination or even the interest.

i don't dream of censoring others. i just feel there is a need for some form of protection on the internet. adult related websites have enter / exit barriers. In my view this is an adult related website and should be treated accordingly. The most offensive parts of this website are those in which people take offense at what someone else has said - not, typically, davids initial writing.

if there were some kind of disclaimer, some kind of "warning extreme views inside" kind of thing, then no-one would be able to ever moan in the way you all view I am. Because everyone would have been warned.

somebody wrote:

"As for your pontificating to David about how he should run his site - that is extremely arrogant of you."

i was giving my views in accordance to his questions. can you not read? i am not arrogant, i just have ideas.

whatever.

baek.

David says:

Baek

Software and warnings are not the central issue here. You STILL haven't answered my question about what you would do as a moderator if an off-colour comment stimulated an interesting and worthwhile discussion.

This goes to the heart of your complaint so why can't you give me a straight answer?

mr peter says:

BAEK
Did someone say you were from Korea, would that be the North of the country then? your wish to control everything suggests it might be. I suggested weeks ago that David should adopt some sort of registration system to help prevent multiple identities, and to help weed out the loonies and wind up merchants. Just as well he never or there would hardly be any of us left. Seems it would not work with this movable type thingy and maybe just as well.What I don't get is if people want to find something offensive here in relation to us having a go at what pass for women in the west or commenting (god forbid) on thai nature, then why don't they just piss off and never darken our sauce again.-peter

Cog says:

Khun Baek,

Take this site for what it's intended to be -- a brew of satirical exploration of Thailand life with a hint of bitterness and spiked with just enough potency to pander to the inebriated.

Implementing heavy-handed guidelines for a blog that caters to a readership of horny male geriatrics (easy now...) with overactive bladders lookin' to 'take the piss', could spell a quick doom for Mangosauce. Personally, I would rather have posters exercise their own self-discerning modicum of respect (bwahahaha!).

I say...it's all 'water off a duck's back'...preferably one that's been well-fed.
------------------------------------------------------------

"You've heard the quotation "methinks they protest too much" well this is a case in point."

Protesting is part of Korean culture. Give him a fuckin' break! ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------

" if there were some kind of disclaimer, some kind of "warning extreme views inside" kind of thing, then no-one would be able to ever moan in the way you all view I am. Because everyone would have been warned."

An excellent suggestion.

baek says:

david,

i would delete the post, or at least the relevant bits and I would add an edit explaining why I had done so, this in turn would at least make the replies make some sense.

it seems i'm not the only one who thinks some kind of warning at least would be suitable.

baek.

Ubangi me, Ibangi U says:

Beak:

If you are not a middle-aged farang woman you have surely missed your calling. By the way, if you are a Korean man (the post does not explicitly list the gender as I recall) I am a 3-foot tall Swahili-speaking Ubangi with a dick that drags behind me and a big whonkin' ring in my nose who loves Jesus and his boyfriend too (apologies to Tom Petty), prove otherwise!

It is very typical of farangs, especially those farangs who feel that they are members of one of the many victim classes that the PC Police have anointed, to try to shut down any discourse that they feel runs contrary to their political interests. That is why I cannot believe that you are anything else but a farang slag who wants to shut down a forum where others tell the truth about you.

Although California (where this blog's web host is based) is especially pernicious in its pursuit of free speech if it threatens any member of a PC-protected class, it would appear that Beak has little legal leg to stand on. Here is a description of the pertinent statute, from the California Department of Justice:

"The Bane Act," Civil Code section 52.1 --provides protection from interference by threats, intimidation, or coercion or for attempts to interfere with someone's state or federal statutory or constitutional rights (these include association, assembly, due process, education, employment, equal protection, expression, formation and enforcement of contracts, holding of public office, housing, privacy, speech, travel, use of public facilities, voting, worship, and protection from bodily restraint or harm, from personal insult, from defamation, and from injury to personal relations)-- proof of "hate motivation" required, according to a 1994 Court of Appeal decision in Boccato v. City of Hermosa Beach

Enforced by Attorney General, any district attorney or city attorney, or a private attorney

Provides for civil penalties for perpetrators, civil remedies to victims of "hate violence," three times actual damages, but no less than $1000, punitive damages, injunctive and other equitable relief (violation of the injunctive relief is punishable by a criminal contempt action, with a penalty of six months in jail and/or a fine not exceeding $1000) and attorney's fees

Speech alone is not sufficient to support an action under the Bane Act, unless the speech itself threatens violence against a specific person or group of persons, and the person or group of persons against whom the threat is directed reasonably fears that, because of the speech, violence will be committed against them or their property and that the person threatening the violence had the apparent ability to carry out the threat

No order shall restrict the content of a person's speech

An order restricting the time, place or manner of any person's speech shall do so only to the extent reasonably necessary to protect the peaceable exercise or enjoyment of constitutional or statutory rights, consistent with the constitutional rights of the person sought to be enjoined"

Here is a link to the full text of the statute (maybe our own Californian bovine pettifogger would like to comment?): http://caag.state.ca.us/civilrights/htm/laws.htm

Beak, because you are obviously a slow-witted farang bitch who has little ability to understand anything approaching reasonable discourse, and because you are obviously a middle-aged divorced white slag who has probably ripped off all her husband's worldly posessions while completely under the protection of the feminist man-hating politically-correct legal system and abetted by the liberal media, I'll paraphrase this down to a size that will allow you to read it without biting your tongue too many times:

If I'm not directly threatening you, and my speech does not seek to influence others to harm you or anybody like you, there's nothing you or anybody can do about it.

Now why don't you go make your boyfriend a sandwich and grease up your asshole, and leave the rest of us to do what we like? We are beneath your contempt anyway.

Gregspertise says:

I have recently being seeing a number of barnyard animals. While the sex is satisfactory I miss the intellectual stimulation provided by great conversation.

mr peter says:

You go to Annies as well then-peter

Tamai Gai says:

Gregspurttease, come to bed honey.

Pablo, Honey says:

Pablo, honey, come back to Florida

Godzilla says:

You Mr Ubangi just can't deal with the fact that a guy could possibly think differently to you and many others on this site. You just can't deal with it can you?! The only way is "oh it's got to be a farang bitch, a guy couldn't possibly have these views"... well guys do... thank god or there would be no progress in this world.

tonychang says:

Danger!
this thread is under threat of becoming amusing.
Normal service will be resumed as soon as possible.

baek says:

Ubangi:

"Beak, because you are obviously a slow-witted farang bitch who has little ability to understand anything approaching reasonable discourse, and because you are obviously a middle-aged divorced white slag who has probably ripped off all her husband's worldly posessions while completely under the protection of the feminist man-hating politically-correct legal system and abetted by the liberal media, I'll paraphrase this down to a size that will allow you to read it without biting your tongue too many times"

... and i take it that is an example of your "reasonable discourse"?

very mature. very open. well done, would you like a treat for being so clever? chocolate drop? i bet you had to practice that post didn't you? still you know what they say, practice makes perfect and that was definetly a post that defines the standard of all too many of the replies here.

... perfectly.

tonychang says:

...there you go, what did I tell you?

baek says:

and it's also exactly the kind of thing the hosting company are asking for proof of - directly offensive language towards me or anyone else making a complaint.

and just in case you are a little too slow to understand that, you offended me with lines like:

"because you are obviously a slow-witted farang bitch "

and

"you are obviously a middle-aged divorced white slag"

oh, and if you don't quite understand why that is, then here is the dictionary definition of "slander"

"Law. Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation.
A false and malicious statement or report about someone"

thank you.

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

I don't truly care what the fuck Beak is, or you either. If you're both a couple of buttfucking SNAGs baking cookies for your live-in Brunch Buddies, it doesn't change the thrust of the post.

The gist of the post was that the Beakster's conduct was exactly like that of a farang woman, that is to cry to the authorities to protect her from a slight that wasn't even directed at her. Further, I would point out that whatever Beak is, she writes much better than most of the people on this blog for whom English is their "mother tongue".

It happens that just today in the US the Supremes, in all their glory, turned back yet another challenge to web porn based on free speech issues. Not to compare this with a porn site (although the pics do make me a little chubby at times), but the fact remains if you don't like what is being expressed here, by all means surf your little ass over to www.cooking.com or www.gay-studs.com whatever
else tickles your tallywacker. Just don't try to shut down the dialog. That's thought control and, not surprisingly, is what a great many Westerners leave the West to escape.

Godzilla, huh? Bet your ass looks great when you first shave it.

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

C'mon, Beaky. You brought it on yourself. You came to this site uninvited, and keep coming back. Your first action, before anybody even knew anything of you and your delicate sensibilities, was to try shutting it down.

For chrissakes, don't you see that people like you are the PROBLEM, and not the SOLUTION? Why do you try to regulate speech and thought? Make a cogent point, not just, "What you say makes me want to hit you with my purse, so I tattled on you."

If you really are a man, act like one. Take the dick out of your mouth and acknowledge the right of other people to have opinions different than yours, and their Constitutionally-protected right to express those thoughts.

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

"Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation." Oh, yes, everybody knows exactly who "Beak" is, so I have certainly done immeasurable harm to your "reputation". You'll never be able to show your face around that bathhouse again, eh Sweetie?

Get real. You have no legal basis.

baek says:

oh dear, i think ubangi is heading for a red face and heart attack.

i bet you didn't breathe during those paragraphs did you? banging it all out... did it get you... excited?

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

Er, was that your cogent point?

Godzilla says:

For future record, lizards don't have hairy arses, so we don't require shaving.

Ubangi Me, Ibangi U says:

LOL! You have obviously checked closely!

THAT'S IT! I'M SHUTTING DOWN THIS BLOG! I WANT TO PROTECT PEOPLE FROM HAVING TO HEAR THE OPINIONS OF LIZARD ASS-SNIFFERS!!

Kanai Burnem and Howe says:

David:

This thread has gone too far. You will hear from us shortly.

Ubangi's Law Firm

Gregstasy says:

I'd just like to thank everyone for their truly wonderful contributions to this discussion, reminding us all why Mangosauce.com is universally regarded as one of the most exciting forums for intellectual thought on the web today.

Baek, in attempting to disect what has probably been the most complex of philosophical conundrums of the past fifty years, you've demonstrated a depth of understanding and perceptiveness that shines bright even amongst the mental stars that come to this board. Congratulations on such thought provoking posts.

Ubangi, your unorthodox presentations bring a smile to my face. In countering Baeks argument you've reached some conclusions that really show an intuitive intelligence. It's true that the forcefulness of your technique may impede further such debates, but at the moment your intellectual integrity tempers your passionate style. Once again I'd like to thank you for your participation.

stu_$ says:

baek,
how can someone be so smart as to have mastered a second language ,yet not understand there's a time and place for everything... ?

do you really think mango sauce is the right place for you to be telling other people what to think ?

here's something you might understand:
Ko jo ra...
Shibural jot kat'un nigimi jot manhan ddong mul eh t'wigyo jukil ship sekia.
for those who are not (allegedly)korean
...surf over to
http://www.insultmonger.com/swearing/korean.htm

STU_$ says:

Baek - the last Stu that posted was not me so disregard the Korean insult you Korean dog fucker

David says:

According to their IP address, Baek and Godzilla are using the same computer.

I wouldn't normally expose different aliases but ìBaekî has already attempted to close down Mango Sauce and therefore shouldn't expect any help from me.

Funnily enough, the same IP address is also used by Isobel and Kevin from www.whatistheshape.com. They had a bruising encounter with the Mango Sauce regulars a few days ago - where Kevin was forced to argue like a pussy in front of his peers.

http://www.mangosauce.com/archives/000035.html

Come on Isobel and Kevin - step forward and take a bow.

Combover says:

Woohoo!! Outed!

Kevin's friend says:

I'm a personal friend of Kevin's and I'd have to say you wouldn't all be so tough if you saw him in real life. he has long strong legs and powerful buttocks......mmmm....sometimes when we shower after squash I get to soap down his muscular back. I love it...he's a little ticklish

JDMAN says:

Isabel and Kevin said they were a happy blissful pair on the old thread. Consistent with the IPA I guess. However who really thinks we are talking two shinny happy different people in the same room using the same computer? Or one person with four alter egos? Scary out there on the WWW. Scarier if that one person is a fat-ass, white farang bitch because she could be one of my ex's!

kevin says:

Well done David. not the sharpest tool in the box, though, are you? i mean, I did *tell* you to go check IPs of comments. Anyway.

Let's sum up the crimes (btw, Godzilla is Isabel, but her posts were nothing to do with me)...

1) I posted under an alias

2) I caused some friction, some argument, some debate

3) I insulted one or two people (maybe three)

4) I gave as good as I got

5) I didn't make much sense

6) I made a lot of typos

7) I questioned other peoples choices.

So um, I guess that makes me a complete member of this website eh?

Oh, while we are here, yeah I did contact your ISP and, in all honesty, the procedure for making a complaint is *soooooo* long winded I really cannot be bothered. I can send you the mail, if you want to see it, it's a good bit of writing.

As to the rest of you non-david cunts on here, if you fancy insulting me, drop me an email, I'll let you have my home address (unlike some of you idiots, I actually live here in BKK) and then you can grow some balls and insult me to my face, yeah?

oh, sorry, i was being just like you lot... again.

i should go fuck a whore, no? probably one of yours.

Ah hold on, i got godzilla. once she's shaved her lizard ass, I can stick it up the wrong 'un and tell her I was doing a beckham?

Oh, and "kevins friend".. um, I don't play squash... but if you want that shower.... call... i do get all sweaty after the gym. I'm glad you remembered about my back though, damn, i wish I weren't ticklish - I miss out on all kinds of good things :(

Kevin, Baek (oh come on, he's a fucking character in a game), whoever you want me to be, sweeties.

kevin says:

JDMAN: actually we have two pcs, but they are in the same room. I can understand you might think we are the same person but, um, we ain't.

mr peter says:

I just checked out www.whatistheshape.com, what a laugh I nearly wet myself. Look at Isobel on June 24th, fuck me is that kevins GF? looks more like a road sweeper from brum, though to be fair you can only see her back. Nice dress sense Isobel and probably a good idea to cover up all that lard like that with sensible clobber from the army and navy store. I'm going back for another look-peter

kevin says:

is it my imagination or did a reply from mr peter, after mis-reading (common thing) and a reply from isabel about my chocolate drop comment... get...

*DELETED*

OMFG IS THIS CENSORSHIP!?!?!??!

Please say it isn't so. Mangosauce will surely die if posts get deleted...

mr peter says:

David you're bastard for posting www.whatistheshape.com, now I'll never get any work done. So far I have learned that Isabel, apart from dressing like a tramp and playing patience likes to work out at the patawan princess hotel gym (know it well) is another mean bugger who likes to buy illegal copied crap, loves Duran Duran (can you believe it) and does not mind pissing off her neighbours by playing her 'music' as loud as she likes, sounds like the typical western woman that we all love to hate so far. Nothing about shagging so far-----peter

Combover says:

Well spotted Kev. I hadn't noticed that but it actually DID contain some racially abusive slurs, albeit in a sarcastic tone of prose.

Better get rid of that than a few misguided generalisations about Thais based on the contributors' limited experience, which is what you (albeit in angry Korean "character") seemed to be demanding above.

Or were you just trying to stir things up?

Dana says:

Since everyone on this site is smarter than me perhaps someone can explain to me what the last comments on this thread have to do with Thailand. If this website does not want to be about Thailand that is fine with me. Just make a choice Mr. Webmaster. Thailand is exerting the biggest gravitational attraction, not any single website. I'm not immune or against witty repartee and displays of intelligence and the fun of oneupsmanship but if we don't place limits on our behavior this site will dilute itself into irrelevancy for the person who is seeking something of the Thai experience. I like this site for many reasons, but the young male dominence behavior that goes on ad nauseum is boring. We are all smart and we are all clever and we are all Thai knowledgable. But if we were really all superior we would know how to be friendly and charitable. I like this site but it is a flawed diamond and sometimes very very boring. I hope there are improvements. I wish nothing but success for this site. But I am now shopping around for another place to play.

mr peter says:

It seems Kevin might not be getting any as isabel writes that 'sometimes just being wears me out' fuck me she sounds like a real goer, no hope of a three holer there I fear. Kevin you're in the most exciting city in the world mate, so do us all a favour and go out a live a bit, leave frumpy draws at home with a tape of kilroy and Duran Duran. Look foward to tomorrows entry maybe with a pic of you with a katoey or two?-peter

stu_$ says:

right on mr peter
on your advice i had a captains cook at
http://www.whatistheshape.com/ (yawn!)
and regarding the url i would have to say
its definitely pear shaped from what i've seen...

where the fuck does this guy get the balls to call our david "not the sharpest tool in the shed" ?

notice the similarities between his site and this one
as in the layout, such as post a comment
but one obvious difference...
mangosauce doesn't put me to sleep

mr peter says:

Kevins tart is a bit of a traitor as she writes about being happy Portugal won and how they deserved to win. She goes on about living in Brazil in '82 which would make her over 40, ths would explain the fuller figure, all those years chomping mars bars and downing guiness. I bet they are having an argument right at this minute, go on kev fuck off round the corner to suzie wongs-peter

John U says:

Stu_$,

You cheeky monkey. You can't go making up your own cockney rhyming slang like that.

What is the world coming to?

The ancient and accepted version is "butchers hook" which is often shortened to "butchers" as in "I went and had a butchers"

Created within the sound of Bow Bells in the dim and distant past.

kevin says:

And so, not suprisingly, mr.peter gets the award for the first person to post an offensive comment to our website - well done! nice one! big and clever mr peter!

But hey, we get what we deserve, yeah?

And only 40 year olds could live in brazil in 1982? thats really, really, interesting logic. I guess you know what road sweepers in brum look like because that's obviously somewhere near your level of intellect?

You wouldn't be so bad if you had some intelligence. I mean, be nasty, sure, but at least make it either witty or clever or... jeez, something!

oh and STU_$... do you think it's because we USE THE SAME SOFTWARE?!?!

tonychang says:

Kevin, clearly we dont share the same sense of "British" humour.My appologies.

mr peter says:

Brother Kevin

well I thought it would make a change from you two posting your offensive opinions on here. So how old was she then 22 years back? I expect her posh parents were working abroad and she was at school in brazil then, so maybe she's only lets say 32?. Insulting the road sweepers of Brum now are we-not very socialist of you brother kev. Still I expect some of them are a bit better looking than our isabel, what's her weight again mate?-peter

John U says:

Guys,

It really makes me uncomfortable when personal attacks are made on people with no real justification.

Ok, so you disagree with Kevin & Isobel as do I, but there's no need of this nastiness. Please let's at least be civilised.

There's a kind of mob action going on here.

Youmust be the kind of people who can't help howling for blood in a mob out of control.

I must be different from you because I never let myself be dragged in to that sort of thing.

So control yourselves you childish fuckers.

Cog says:

Isabel is gorgeous. The vicious generalities of falang men should be of little or no concern to her.

For falang women who are TRULY obese and bitchy, please lobby your complaints to: whitebitch@lardass.com. Khob khun khrap.

mr peter says:

Just bored JU, it's all Davids fault for being on holiday and not feeding us new topics everyday. How about another one on tata young?-peter

Cog says:

It's not my intention to exalt Thai culture, but I'd like to make some observations, from a Thai perspective, regarding "falangness" vis a vis the context of this thread. Here's my sophomoric 2 cents:

IMO, this entire blog section not only points out the subjectivity of what is considered entertainment value, but it also reveals how varying cultures interpret "humor" differently. Thais prefer slapstick comedy; the intention of the comic effect can't be misconstrued for anything else -- the effect is purposeful and simplistic. Exaggerated forms of physical and standup comedy (e.g. Thai-Isaan comedy troupes) panders to an audience that prefers hyperbole over subtlety. Irony, sarcasm, satire, piss-taking, dry-wit etc. etc... are subtle forms of humor that Thais do not culturally process well, if at all. Not surprisingly, these forms are usually "person-directed" -- an onanistic performance in an attempt to put the other person down. If the recipient of the comic effect interprets the humorous intention correctly, then no violence ensues. However, Thais will almost always construe these forms as insulting. Hence, death threats to Mangosauce from the Thai readership. This supplements the idea that a warning in Thai/English upon entry into the site, might be prudent.

This thread also epitomizes the falang's unfettered desire to hammer out confrontation: Dana is now going to skeedaddle off like a pussy, probably only to return; Baek has revealed that he is actually a honky with an agenda from England; Godzilla has a female ass (this is the only thing positive that has come out of this); Mr Peter puts away his English gentlemanship and resorts to ugly hooliganism...and it goes on.

All I ask is...when do we start a campfire and sing Kum-ba-ya?

Let me leave you falangs with an old Thai adage:
พูดไปก็เสียคนเปล่าๆ...
To continue talking would be to lose one's humanity. Now, guess why Thais prefer to avoid confrontation.

mr peter says:

Interesting view of issan comedy appreciation, the crowds where I go never seem to tire of it and laugh their bollocks off at the daftest comedy routines that make Benny Hill look avant garde. Even I find myself giving it the odd chuckle if it's visual enough.
Baek and Godzilla were one and the same, also the happy couple Kevin and Tracey, no it was Isabel. They seem quiet today, praying to Kitty maybe?
The idea of a yet all yea who enter here have a sense of humour button is a bit pointless IMO. I wish I could read thai, how civilised their debates must be, unless it's anything to do with what the Khmers did to their embassy last year or what those scally Burmese get up to on the border, not to mention the fucking falangs or muslim madmen in the south.They might not be confrontational (very often) in person but I expect are not so different on the internet. They can show themselves up though in slightly different ways than we do. Am I really a hooligan oh dear me, that must be the Irish in me coming out then.-peter

John U says:

Cog,

Funny you should talk about Thai humour. A lady I was seeing a few years ago ( my friends called her 'the pig with lipstick' cheeky fuckers) took me to a place in BKK, which I think she called Villa.

Really big place with loads of Thais in there and I was the only farang.

A group of Thai comedians on the stage, and of course I couldn't understand a word, but their actions and sounds were quite funny even to me.

Of course I took some stick being the only farang in the place, but in a very friendly way.

The thing that really amused me though was that after every punch line the drummer hit the big drun twice.

Balh, blah, balh, blah, (everybody starts to laugh ) -big drum - 'BOOM BOOM'

Cog says:

"Balh, blah, balh, blah, (everybody starts to laugh ) -big drum - 'BOOM BOOM'"

Somewhat analagous to the Western's version of the drum roll prior to the punchline. In Thailand, however, the musical insertion (i.e. "boom boom") is either delivered during or post punchline and is meant to be part of the rehearsed schtick.

David Letterman, a late night talk show host in America also frequently uses this comedic effect.

Alan says:

Hi David,

I´ve just promoted you to the number one guy in the World with whom I would like to drink a beer.